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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post
    This is still (at least this week, so far!) the USA. One has a right to due process. If someone is being accused of a CRIME (and that's what this accusation is), they need to file a police report and bring that accusation, the evidence and any corroborating witnesses before a grand jury within the time frame of the statute of limitations in that state. If it's deemed the accusation is credible, the accused will be arraigned, possibly jailed or bond posted, and the process of preparing for trial begins.

    To my knowledge, no other entity or process in our country is empowered to adjudicate and punish CRIME.
    Once more, slowly. HE IS NOT BEING ACCUSED OF A CRIME HERE. He is being accused of violating the SafeSport standards / USEF Code of Conduct. End of story.

    Now if SafeSport believes a case may be criminal in nature, they can report it to law enforcement. You may get your wish to see the rule of law applied yet, but it has nothing to do with the SafeSport proceedings.
    Last edited by BigMama1; Aug. 7, 2019, 11:20 PM.

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    • Originally posted by Sunflower View Post
      I went to the Safe Sport website and looked up the process they use, how they are run, etc, which is far more than most of the people shrieking about it have done. I also think the people who are bashing the Safe Sport process have little to no idea or experience of sports governance more generally. Why let an accurate understanding get in the way of a good screech fest on the Internet?
      The amount of people who essentially shriek about the unfairness of "a career brought down by one unsubstantiated decades-long allegation", or some form of that statement , is mind-boggling.
      Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

      Comment


      • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

        Because you indicated that other poster who “watched” clinics in the past and recently was complicit because s/he continued watching 40 years later. S/he didn’t say any of the recent stuff was in person, could well also have been the Horsemastership series like many of us. Most of us who have been around a while have heard the rumors, too....I sure have. I mean, if I hadn’t already heard, his memoir didn’t leave much to the imagination.

        in short— I thought your assumption that watching = complicit behavior was perhaps not fair to that poster. That’s all.
        Except that I said attended, not watched. Which she confirmed by saying she attended 8-9 clinics in person over the last 40 years.
        "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mardi View Post

          This^^^^
          For context, Mardi's post was in support of Crashing Boar's post which said, in part, "Here's a practical solution for USEF: SS is mandated to apply to "Olympic" sports. Western riding, breed shows, hunters, gaited riding, rodeo, foxhunting, and the SUB-FEI levels of jumping, 3-day, and dressage are only peripherally related to the Olympic movement. Truly "Olympic" level riding involves mere tens of people out of 337 million. Therefore, the USEF should only require the SS compliance for those truly training at the FEI levels;"

          USEF is the NGB(*) for equestrian. The NGBs for all Olympic sports are required to abide by Safe Sport. USET(#) tried to be replace AHSA(&) as the NGB but this was not allowed. Ultimately USEF, now USE rose from the flames of that dispute. My recollection is that part of the determination that USET could not be the NGB was that there could be only one national organization associated with an Olympic discipline.


          The last time I checked rodeo wasn't a USEF division, although warm-up rings can resemble one at times.

          (*)national governing body
          (#)US Equestrian Team
          (&)American Horse Shows Association
          The Evil Chem Prof

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Midge View Post

            You can lose your medical license under almost the exact same procedure as Safe Sport follows.

            Gah! Are most horse people completely ignorant of the way the rest of the world works?
            Yes - because they're all at horse shows and never turn on the TV or read the paper!

            All joking aside though, we are a very insulated world and many people who go from show to show really aren't aware of what is happening in the real world. Most trainers have never held a "real" job, only played with horses their whole lives. They don't know about HR departments and what licensure is because no one oversees horse training in this country. Amazingly, there are some trainers who have managed to remain computer illiterate because they don't want to join the rest of the world. The equestrian world is really quite a sad branch of society.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

              my point exactly, it was wacky.
              But every one of us here has a user name, no ??
              *************************
              Go, Baby, Go......
              Aefvue Farms Footing Inspector

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mardi View Post

                This^^^^


                (Mardi was quoting the person who basically stated that only people who are uber upper level should have to follow SS)
                So what you are saying is that only children who are going out for the Olympic levels are worthy of protection? Unbelievable. SS is about protecting CHILDREN from SEXUAL ABUSE. Why are only those who are of the upper levels worthy of protection?

                Someone earlier said something along the lines of "no one thinks molestation is ok, no one anywhere" Well, yaknow, except for the people doing the molesting and those ardently defending them.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                  So you wouldn’t mind if someone posted your name over here as a member of that group, even though you are not participating?
                  Nope.
                  *************************
                  Go, Baby, Go......
                  Aefvue Farms Footing Inspector

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Irish Ei's View Post

                    But every one of us here has a user name, no ??
                    you are misunderstanding: it's really wacky that Katie was having a friend post "hi this is Katie..." as if Katie does not have access or a platform, particularly given a) the content of her message and b) the scrutiny the entire situation is under c) her past readiness to slag people publicly and the guarantee that any number of outlets would have published her latest blaaaaaaaaaah

                    You don't have to think it's weird, I do.
                    Let me apologize in advance.

                    Comment


                    • Crashing Boar to answer your question from a few pages back, the Supreme Court has already ruled on issues relating to the retroactive reach of laws. Ex post facto laws are not allowed in the criminal context generally. Civil or administrative laws are fair game. SS would be constitutional according to the current Supreme Court precedent.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                        @ Tiramit

                        I don't have a good answer for for you, except to say that I'm wiser now than I once was. You have to remember that the first clinic I saw may have been 40 years ago. When he was here and I could afford it, I went and watched. I've been to maybe 8-9 of his clinics, but I haven't been to one for probably 10 years now.

                        We all put up with a lot of stuff years ago that we wouldn't now - sexism, racism, you name it - without even being aware of it.
                        dannyboy, I'm not trying to pick on you. You've presented an excellent narrative for what I suspect is a fairly common "public" GM relationship, which is why I've singled your posts out. Please know that this is not an attack on you. For my comments below, "you" is not You.

                        Your cited timeline isn't uncommon in this discussion, but it's precisely within this decades-long timeline that, for me at least, the wheels fall off the cart. 10 years ago was 2009. We knew about bullying and sexual predators in 2009. Why attend then? We knew about them in 1999, 20 years ago. Same question. The Catholic Church and Boy Scouts scandals made international headlines 20 years ago. We knew predators existed. SafeSport is new, but stopping predators has been around for a while now. Why did everyone gossip and snicker and do nothing to prevent?

                        Yes, the 70s were a different time... 40 years ago. What about the 20 or 10 years after that where you still attended his clinics? You stated that you wouldn't ride with him after observing a questionable situation with a young boy 40 years ago makes less sense when you say that you still attended his clinics another 7-8 times over the next 30 years.

                        My point is that anyone who supported someone (anyone, not only GM!) despite a negative impression formed either from witnessing something first-hand or troubling gossip and not only did nothing to try and stop said someone, but continued to support him, is part of the problem. WE as a group need to be more aware and proactive rather than waiting to see who's next.

                        That's how people like the Larry Nassars and Jimmy Williams were able to carry on despite deplorable actions. It's a series of people not speaking up or looking the other way when they do witness or are made aware who help perpetuate the problem.
                        "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by IPEsq View Post
                          Crashing Boar to answer your question from a few pages back, the Supreme Court has already ruled on issues relating to the retroactive reach of laws. Ex post facto laws are not allowed in the criminal context generally. Civil or administrative laws are fair game. SS would be constitutional according to the current Supreme Court precedent.
                          I realize this wasn’t addressed to me... but thank you for this. It clarifies matters. And highlights that a civil suit overturning his ban is ... unlikely.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

                            I realize this wasn’t addressed to me... but thank you for this. It clarifies matters. And highlights that a civil suit overturning his ban is ... unlikely.
                            Well, not necessarily but there would have to be most likely a different claim raised under the greater Act that SS is a part of, or this issue would need to somehow wind up back in front of the Court (unlikely).

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post



                              Here's a practical solution for USEF: SS is mandated to apply to "Olympic" sports. Western riding, breed shows, hunters, gaited riding, rodeo, foxhunting, and the SUB-FEI levels of jumping, 3-day, and dressage are only peripherally related to the Olympic movement. Truly "Olympic" level riding involves mere tens of people out of 337 million. Therefore, the USEF should only require the SS compliance for those truly training at the FEI levels; a vanishingly small group of people, those under the most extreme performance pressure at the very pinnacle of the sport.

                              Let all other allegations of any and all misconduct, in any social context, be adjudicated by the legitimate US judicial authorities under due process of US law.
                              This is a great idea. Even better, we could have Safe Sport apply only to equestrians currently longlisted for Olympic teams, and only in Olympic years. Equestrian isn’t like gymnastics, in which most the elite athletes are minors, anyway.

                              Who cares if a 13 year not longlisted for the Olympics is molested?

                              Comment


                              • Are the accusations against him true multiple sources are putting me in a dilemma?

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by himanshu View Post
                                  Are the accusations against him true multiple sources are putting me in a dilemma?
                                  Huh?

                                  Comment


                                  • I feel sorry for the people who are honestly shocked at this news. I really do.

                                    I can only imagine how horrible I would feel if someone that I knew and respected was accused, investigated, and found to have had sexual contact with a minor, thus necessitating his removal from access to children.

                                    However I don't understand the defensive freak out and hysteria about the banning of George Morris, by people who's only connection to him is not a personal one.

                                    If he was your Dad, your brother, or your close friend, I might understand the instinct to defend him, without giving Safe Sport credit for doing their job, which is to protect minors from abuse..

                                    This is not the case with the majority of people online. who know him only by reputation as a horseman or perhaps have had lessons or clinics with him.

                                    It is an ugly and terrible reality, that people abuse those over whom they have power.

                                    We have to face this. There are still heroes that we can aspire to emulate. Unfortunately some of our heroes are goats. Having them exposed is painful, but is definitely for the best.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by skydy View Post
                                      I feel sorry for the people who are honestly shocked at this news. I really do.

                                      I can only imagine how horrible I would feel if someone that I knew and respected was accused, investigated, and found to have had sexual contact with a minor, thus necessitating his removal from access to children.

                                      However I don't understand the defensive freak out and hysteria about the banning of George Morris, by people who's only connection to him is not a personal one.

                                      If he was your Dad, your brother, or your close friend, I might understand the instinct to defend him, without giving Safe Sport credit for doing their job, which is to protect minors from abuse..

                                      This is not the case with the majority of people online. who know him only by reputation as a horseman or perhaps have had lessons or clinics with him.

                                      It is an ugly and terrible reality, that people abuse those over whom they have power.

                                      We have to face this. There are still heroes that we can aspire to emulate. Unfortunately some of our heroes are goats. Having them exposed is painful, but is definitely for the best.
                                      I think the idea of the domino effect may be lurking out there as a hidden trigger. Even if misconduct is not something one has to worry about oneself, other empires toppling around you are not good for the bottom line.

                                      The irony is that getting on board with SafeSport now in the midst of the firestorm will surely serve their businesses well for years to come. It's the principled thing to do and because of that they'll land on the right side of history.

                                      It's the long game but you can't see it if you're convinced you need to be in preservation mode.
                                      One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                                      William Shakespeare

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                                        So when my close friend was ripped out of our workplace in handcuffs on charges of statutory rape of a minor, I will agree that it was tough to resolve. I didn't know how to feel. To this day, it's still hard to believe. I never had even the slightest inkling he could be involved in such a thing, even though he was found guilty in court and may still be in jail.

                                        But you know what I didn't do? Take to the internet to trash the alleged victim and the judicial system. I know everyone processes things differently, but you also have a level of personal responsibility to be a decent human being. Yes, you may be angry for your friend and want to believe the allegations are untrue. Yet there are also other parties involved. Not to sound trite, but we all know there are two sides to every story and it is short-sighted to become utterly disrespectful when you only have your own perspective. Historical data indicates the majority of reports of sexual misconduct with a minor stem from a place of truth. To outright blame the victim and/or the process is not only in poor taste, it defies logic.
                                        But, at the same time, I’m sure your friends conviction wasn’t on the front pages and ‘the talk’ of the equestrian internet.
                                        I think these BNTs are in shock and disbelief over hearing their friend did something like this. There is a lot of thoughts of ‘I never saw that behavior and I’ve known him for x years!’
                                        They will cool off, probably after the appeal is done, and come to realize that criminals don’t commit crimes in ways that get caught. If a person is sloppy, they would have gone to jail years ago, SS or not. SS wasn’t created for the obvious abuse situations.

                                        If you go through my posts, especially from the Rob Gage thread, my original reaction to SS was ‘this can’t be true. SS must be corrupt/wrong/incompetent.’ But after things cooled off, I realized that not everything has to have some sort of agenda behind it. Sometimes, people do bad stuff and get caught. I think that a lot of these BNTs are gonna feel the same way in a few days.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by ohmyheck View Post

                                          I think the idea of the domino effect may be lurking out there as a hidden trigger. Even if misconduct is not something one has to worry about oneself, other empires toppling around you are not good for the bottom line.

                                          The irony is that getting on board with SafeSport now in the midst of the firestorm will surely serve their businesses well for years to come. It's the principled thing to do and because of that they'll land on the right side of history.

                                          It's the long game but you can't see it if you're convinced you need to be in preservation mode.
                                          I don't see the irony, but I certainly think it behooves those that consider the prevention and punishment of child abuse as something that is important, to make it clear that they aren't complicit.

                                          By making such instant and desperate attempts to diminish Safe Sport's banning of Morris, their writings show that most of these people seem to have either not read, or not understood, the Safe Sport literature and are doing themselves and their cause no credit whatsoever.

                                          If some parents don't care what happens to their children as long as they win at horse shows, well thankfully Safe Sport exists and most all of us give a damn.
                                          I think most parents do give a damn. They just don't expect USEF to give kiddie porn fans and child molesters free rein in their organization.

                                          It's good for parents and kids to be able to have a place to research and thus to choose between a coach that has excellent teaching skills and yet has been set down for molesting minors, and a good coach that has no sexual interest in their students.

                                          I think many families that are able to provide their children with horses and training at very advanced levels have caught on and are more careful about who they trust their children to.

                                          For everyday folks that are financing the kiddo's horsey dream? They should not have to be in the "know" to keep their kid away from a trainer that everyone else knows is untrustworthy.

                                          It's not that much to ask.
                                          Last edited by skydy; Aug. 8, 2019, 02:56 AM.

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