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  • Based on some comments about the RG situation, people are not going to give this up easily. One person, who previously supported Safe Sport in posts here, commented on FB that it was useless for protecting minors. Another said she thought that Hillary R was lying.
    The Evil Chem Prof

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Irish Ei's View Post

      I'm simply providing a list of names of members of the page. Period.

      The tenor over there now reads as if SafeSport procedures and USEF's lack of action are the enemies.
      Lots quitting or not renewing, calls to boycott USEFs partners , calling or writing Senators kind of stuff.
      And lots unable to seperate Safesport from legal criminal procedure.
      No, I'm not participating
      From another who is watching the page, many who are saying they are quitting or not renewing (at least in a poll someone set up) are not even as members in the first place.
      "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

      My CANTER blog.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

        THIS^ is the issue. And it scares the living daylights out of anyone who can see the Big Picture. The most recent article on COTH states that GHM was suspended for "Safe Sport violations that allegedly took place between 1968 and 1972." Huh?

        Would one of the attorneys present please explain how one can be held RETROACTIVELY in violation by a group that DID NOT EXIST, would not exist for another 48 years, at the time of the violation?

        CONTEXT of those times is everything! ALL of it--the parties and bars, the furtive gay scene, the poling, the dope--people had different issues than today's mores, surveillance culture and litigious atmosphere. Was a lot of that stuff smart, or nice, or ethical? NO it was not, but please note the context was campus activity in the "Animal House" era, the "Mad Men's"office or the director's "casting couch." It was a different world, to judge people today for what took place half a century ago is insane in any context! We no longer live in that world. (Unless, of course, you'd like to also memory-hole the careers of at least 6 Presidents!) Another thing to realize is that in those days, horses were not pets--they were just emerging from the era of expendable "using" animals and much more a means to an end than today. Pros in those days did the riding at the high levels, ammies rarely. Rich ammies demanded wins and paid the bills. Pros did what they had to do to win and mostly got away with it. And plenty of officialdom, then as now, was corrupted by said money.

        This is going to end up in civil court, and it won't be pretty.
        I don't think that molesting children was ever OK, even half a century ago.

        The "one person fifty years ago" narrative originated in GM's press release via Phelp's Media. It may prove to be as viable as the narrative about RG that it was "one almost-legal teen when RG was in twenties."
        The Evil Chem Prof

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Peggy View Post

          I don't think that molesting children was ever OK, even half a century ago.

          The "one person fifty years ago" narrative originated in GM's press release via Phelp's Media. It may prove to be as viable as the narrative about RG that it was "one almost-legal teen when RG was in twenties."
          How many people you think were "carding" their partners-of-the moment in a drunken haze in 1968? Reality check.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            My comment is regarding, proof or evidence...would SS be able to wire someone to get a taped confession? Just curious because of all the people yelling about needing evidence as proof of the misconduct.

            Comment


            • Wow. yep, definitely people like 65 lb 11 year olds who couldn't be penetrated and 13 year old boys who had lost their fathers were confusing to adult men.


              Seriously, as with most assaults, the victims were known to these predators.

              Dude, take the safe sport training. Learn about grooming.

              Read a book, join the world and stop making shit up and introducing stupid strawmen
              Let me apologize in advance.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                How many people you think were "carding" their partners-of-the moment in a drunken haze in 1968? Reality check.
                forgot to quote. important to remember new old excuses as they get sprinkled.

                now these guys were just confused. probably tricked by junior whores.
                Let me apologize in advance.

                Comment


                • @ Tiramit

                  I don't have a good answer for for you, except to say that I'm wiser now than I once was. You have to remember that the first clinic I saw may have been 40 years ago. When he was here and I could afford it, I went and watched. I've been to maybe 8-9 of his clinics, but I haven't been to one for probably 10 years now.

                  We all put up with a lot of stuff years ago that we wouldn't now - sexism, racism, you name it - without even being aware of it. I was once let go from a job when it was a choice between me and a guy, because I was "married and had someone to take care of me and he had to support his family." And I didn't really see so much wrong with that reasoning back then. It was just the way things were.

                  I looked up to GM. I watched him ride at Washington and New York. I hero-worshipped him. I got his autograph. I always thought he was mean when he taught, but that was "just George". I never rode in one of his clinics because I didn't like that kind of thing, but I guess I figured it was others' choice if they wanted to. He put his hands on that boy, but that was "just George". Remember, no one spoke up - it was "just George". I guess I couldn't accept that my idol had feet of clay - as a lot of people still can't. It's called compartmentalisation.

                  I learned so much from watching him. I think his cavaletti exercises are great. The step by step way he brought horses along was great. I loved to watch him get on a horse and do flying changes. But eventually, I couldn't put up with what I finally saw as rampant misogyny and sexism, as well as verbal abuse - and let's face it, most of what I observed was directed at girls and women, although boys came in for their share also. He was always nice to the men I saw, but those of them I knew were either professionals or wealthy patrons.

                  George did get less abrasive over time. I didn't realise until I read it here that his increased niceness coincided with the ability of his audience to record his clinics. Funny, that. My attitude towards him has changed a lot over time as well. I didn't go to his clinics thinking what an SOB he was. I thought he had a lot of knowledge to impart and I still do. When I finally couldn't take the bad stuff any more, I stopped going, but I still admire his knowledge.

                  I read his book, too. It doesn't show him to be a very nice person, but he's not my friend, so that doesn't really matter to me. I admit I skipped over most of the extraneous stuff to read the riding parts. I do want to be clear; I dont' care how many sexual partners he had (although if there were 10,000 of them, I wonder how he had time for anything else.) I do care if some of them were underage and especially if they were coerced.



                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                    How many people you think were "carding" their partners-of-the moment in a drunken haze in 1968? Reality check.
                    How many 11, 12 and 13 year olds were in a drunken haze? Nobody really cares about consenting adult sex activity at some disco in the 60s.

                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bristol Bay View Post

                      If you factor in bathhouses and other venues for anonymous activity, it’s possible.
                      Peggy GMTA!
                      A helmet saved my life.

                      2017 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                        THIS^ is the issue. And it scares the living daylights out of anyone who can see the Big Picture. The most recent article on COTH states that GHM was suspended for "Safe Sport violations that allegedly took place between 1968 and 1972." Huh?

                        Would one of the attorneys present please explain how one can be held RETROACTIVELY in violation by a group that DID NOT EXIST, would not exist for another 48 years, at the time of the violation?

                        CONTEXT of those times is everything! ALL of it--the parties and bars, the furtive gay scene, the poling, the dope--people had different issues than today's mores, surveillance culture and litigious atmosphere. Was a lot of that stuff smart, or nice, or ethical? NO it was not, but please note the context was campus activity in the "Animal House" era, the "Mad Men's"office or the director's "casting couch." It was a different world, to judge people today for what took place half a century ago is insane in any context! We no longer live in that world. (Unless, of course, you'd like to also memory-hole the careers of at least 6 Presidents!) Another thing to realize is that in those days, horses were not pets--they were just emerging from the era of expendable "using" animals and much more a means to an end than today. Pros in those days did the riding at the high levels, ammies rarely. Rich ammies demanded wins and paid the bills. Pros did what they had to do to win and mostly got away with it. And plenty of officialdom, then as now, was corrupted by said money.

                        This is going to end up in civil court, and it won't be pretty.
                        I am going to be really direct here.

                        First, I don't know what the accusation is, what the evidence is, and neither do you. But I'm going to lay something out that y'all had better be ready for.

                        GM says that the accusation is between 1968 and 1972 when he was ~ 30-34 years old. This may or may not be the sum total of evidence or accusation, but I think we can assume it's at least that.

                        SafeSport says it is for sexual misconduct with a minor. FWIW we know that is the wording they use whether it is one or many victims. It can be a range of behaviors which they lay out on their website in impressively clinical detail. We also do not know the gender of the minor(s), but I think we can consider it unimportant.

                        I really don't give a fig what consenting adults do or did for sex. Legal at the time and place or not. If he went to the bar and had a total orgyfest with strangers, I really don't care. I also strongly suspect SafeSport doesn't care.

                        What I do care about is people using their power to get sex from students and employees and other people under their power. And I care even more about people using it to get sex from a minor. Or, as seems typical when there's one minor, multiple minors.

                        I think y'all should consider the extremely strong possibility that the truth here is very ugly, that it could involve a 30+ year old man having sex with children in our sport half his age or less. There is no context or time where that behavior would have been okay. That as these rocks get kicked even uglier behavior will come to light, as it often does in these situations. You may be shocked to learn eventually how many survivors - of this case and others - are people you love, and people you're hurting right now. And plan what you say, and advocate for, accordingly.
                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                          Wow. yep, definitely people like 65 lb 11 year olds who couldn't be penetrated and 13 year old boys who had lost their fathers were confusing to adult men.


                          Seriously, as with most assaults, the victims were known to these predators.
                          "Sure, I just coached him in the 14 and under equitation division, but I didn't know how old he was. How could I have known?"

                          "And who knew it was even a crime to have sex with 14 year old boys back in 1968? It certainly wasn't in the USEF rules that you couldn't do that; how could I have known not to do it?"

                          .... of course he did know the reserpine was against the rules...the rules he was in charge of maintaining... but who could have known he'd be caught? I mean, just because someone tipped him off that there was a test... still!
                          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                          Comment


                          • Let me be clear. I am not, anywhere in any post, excusing any person's alleged CRIMINAL behavior at any time.

                            What I AM concerned about is extra-judicial NGO's conducting star-chamber trials without the due process of law to which we are all entitled, making judgments retroactive to a time 48 years before that NGO's existence. Judgments while technically only relating to membership in a private club, nevertheless have already resulted in one man's suicide and the pending reputation destruction of another. All without ANY charges ever having been filed against either man with the police over the span of 60-year careers.

                            At this time NONE of us know what GHM is accused of or by whom. That lack of transparency right there is a serious problem, because it feeds this wildfire social-media gossip mill we're seeing.

                            When one is charged with a crime by the police, the specifics of the arrest are a matter of public record, not expressed in vague terms. The accuser might have been 8 years old at the time or one month shy of 18. He might even have lied about his age. Plenty of people did! Once again, CONTEXT MATTERS. But this closed process does not provide sufficient transparency.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                              "Sure, I just coached him in the 14 and under equitation division, but I didn't know how old he was. How could I have known?"

                              "And who knew it was even a crime to have sex with 14 year old boys back in 1968? It certainly wasn't in the USEF rules that you couldn't do that; how could I have known not to do it?"

                              .... of course he did know the reserpine was against the rules...the rules he was in charge of maintaining... but who could have known he'd be caught? I mean, just because someone tipped him off that there was a test... still!
                              I wish I said all of this, but my head is exploding
                              Let me apologize in advance.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post
                                Let me be clear. I am not, anywhere in any post, excusing any person's alleged CRIMINAL behavior at any time.

                                What I AM concerned about is extra-judicial NGO's conducting star-chamber trials without the due process of law to which we are all entitled, making judgments retroactive to a time 48 years before that NGO's existence. Judgments while technically only relating to membership in a private club, nevertheless have already resulted in one man's suicide and the pending reputation destruction of another. All without ANY charges ever having been filed against either man with the police over the span of 60-year careers.

                                At this time NONE of us know what GHM is accused of or by whom. That lack of transparency right there is a serious problem, because it feeds this wildfire social-media gossip mill we're seeing.

                                When one is charged with a crime by the police, the specifics of the arrest are a matter of public record, not expressed in vague terms. The accuser might have been 8 years old at the time or one month shy of 18. He might even have lied about his age. Plenty of people did! Once again, CONTEXT MATTERS. But this closed process does not provide sufficient transparency.
                                The concept you are failing to grasp is that in many other professions, one can be banned without a criminal conviction. This is the same thing. Professional organizations can and do ban people without a trial. Welcome to the world outside of horses where the majority of us reside.

                                These due process and constitutional rights arguments are really tiring.

                                Like ladyj79 my head is exploding.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Irish Ei's View Post

                                  I'm simply providing a list of names of members of the page. Period.
                                  ....
                                  No, I'm not participating
                                  So you wouldn’t mind if someone posted your name over here as a member of that group, even though you are not participating?

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                                    A few observations:

                                    No authority in this land can legislate or mandate "lack of compassion" or "empathy," a word never heard before 2 years ago. Ditto teaching style. The marketplace can take care of this very nicely; simply take your business elsewhere, and tell people why. To date, GHM has had zero problems filling any of his clinics. Not your style? Find someone to train with who embodies the traits you seek.

                                    The top levels of any sport are very, very tough--tough to enter, tough to attain, and in this sport, very dangerous and with hundreds of thousands of dollars riding on the outcome at the Grand Prix level. A bad mistake can kill you or that very expensive animal you're sitting on, and that's why trainers don't always have time to sugar-coat it. Frankly, if all it takes is words/attitudes/gruff style to destroy you mentally, you're nowhere close to the caliber that's ever going to jump the big stix. Go ask your brothers how much "empathy" coaches are dishing out in topflight lacrosse or ice hockey or football!

                                    Torch-and-pitchfork brandishers here are now accusing GHM, publicly and in writing, of animal cruelty. That's a serious criminal charge, and if not true would certainly be actionable as slander/libel. I'd be a little careful of that.
                                    I decided to revisit this gem of a post, even though others did an excellent job of taking you to task, because you initially directed your comments at me.

                                    1. Nothing posted on this thread is opening anyone up to action for slander or libel. George Morris is a public figure. Slander and libel require the post to be false, and have caused him harm... and that bar is high for a public figure.

                                    2. I have an advanced degree and studied macroeconomics in particular. You underlining the word marketplace and your pat attempt to educate me is unnecessary.

                                    3. I made zero arguments with respect to legislating empathy or compassion. Obviously that would be asinine. Take your straw man elsewhere.

                                    4. I am an amateur, and quite clear about that on these forums. So no need for condescending lectures about the upper levels and “what it takes.” I don’t give a shit.

                                    5. I do ride regularly with someone who has competed at the highest levels of eventing successfully for decades. I’ve not wilted yet when dealing with that sort of tough coaching. Nor I have I left the coach crying because of the lack of sugar coating. So no need for condescending lectures on that front either. Or for lectures on danger and margins of error. The “big stix” involved in cross country are a bit more dangerous than the pretty painted obstacles you deal with in the carefully controlled confines of an arena.

                                    6. The top notch, 4* rider, and coach of 4* riders that I know quite well does not engage in petty, abusive bullying with students. Tough? Yes. Have students left after one lesson? Yes. Working students quit early? Yes indeed. But does this coach emotionally, physically or sexually abuse minors or working students over which they wield power?!?! Nope. And in case it wasn’t obvious from my participation on this thread and others... I watch for that sort of thing QUITE CAREFULLY. And beyond that... poor horsemanship, and any sort of abuse of a horse in this coach’s barn or program? NOT TOLERATED. Because in addition to being a successful competitor (at the highest levels), and a successful coach, this person is an old school proponent of good horsemanship. And all clients and students better be prepared to treat animals ethically and with care and compassion... or get lost. Same goes for humans.

                                    7. Your comments suggesting I go ask my brothers about topflight programs and coaching in football, and lacrosse, etc, because I need to get a clue about how “tough” it is (and how “empathy” is for peons )... well... I chatted with my husband instead. He served 21 years in uniform, has been in multiple combat zones, flown multiple types of aircraft in multiple situations all over the globe, and landed on aircraft carriers (over 300 times), patrolled no fly zones where people on the ground had anti aircraft weapons that were pointed at him, completed jet to jet mid air refueling many many times in a no fly zone operation (trust me... the stakes are a little higher in terms of danger and dollars than those involved in your showjumping example), and oh yeah... also flown to dirt airstrips in god forsaken lawless countries on multiple continents to complete humanitarian missions... which required small teams of guys carrying automatic weapons to protect everyone - the pilot and aircrew and humanitarian teams - because the world is a pretty mean and scary place. And yes indeed... some very very very tough people have lots of empathy and compassion for the helpless souls who live in places like that, and risk life and limb to complete humanitarian missions. Imagine that!

                                    So anyway, I asked my husband if he thought I was just clueless about toughness and what is required to participate in the top levels of sports. Because he’s pretty tough... and knows some REALLY tough people...

                                    he laughed.

                                    ”Why are you asking me about this? We both know you are an advanced cancer survivor and what you went through... why are you asking about stupid football coaches and if they’re tough? Dudes like that are just ridiculous immature guys who never got over high school and who can’t hack it in the real world, so they make a habit of bullying high school kids to make themselves feel better. It’s pathetic.”

                                    Hmmm. That was actually on point.

                                    I pushed him a little more though... because I wanted to know about toughness and ELITE people... was empathy just not a thing ELITE people in the military gave a shit about? His response...

                                    “The toughest dudes I know in the military, SEALS and other covert guys who lead spec ops teams into sketchy sketchy places all KNOW that if you scream and belittle and abuse the young inexperienced guys and your other troops - they know that crap destroys morale in the long run. Low morale is lethal - for you, or your troops, or both. Good leaders don’t bully. They lead and develop their troops.”

                                    So there you go. Get a clue.
                                    Last edited by Virginia Horse Mom; Aug. 7, 2019, 09:51 PM. Reason: typos

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post
                                      Let me be clear. I am not, anywhere in any post, excusing any person's alleged CRIMINAL behavior at any time.

                                      What I AM concerned about is extra-judicial NGO's conducting star-chamber trials without the due process of law to which we are all entitled, making judgments retroactive to a time 48 years before that NGO's existence. Judgments while technically only relating to membership in a private club, nevertheless have already resulted in one man's suicide and the pending reputation destruction of another. All without ANY charges ever having been filed against either man with the police over the span of 60-year careers.

                                      At this time NONE of us know what GHM is accused of or by whom. That lack of transparency right there is a serious problem, because it feeds this wildfire social-media gossip mill we're seeing.

                                      When one is charged with a crime by the police, the specifics of the arrest are a matter of public record, not expressed in vague terms. The accuser might have been 8 years old at the time or one month shy of 18. He might even have lied about his age. Plenty of people did! Once again, CONTEXT MATTERS. But this closed process does not provide sufficient transparency.
                                      Crashing Boar - Do you take issue with, let’s say, priests being called out and defrocked for assaulting minors 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago? What about private school teachers like the cases that have recently come to light about prestigious East Coast institutions that date back decades? Why should our sport be different?

                                      I am coming back into riding after many years off. I am surprised how not much has changed in all these years from what I see here and on social media. It saddens me to see people I love and trust on the wrong side of this argument. But what saddens me the most is that they often seem to “get it” when similar situations arise in other professional arenas. Why shouldn’t the equestrian world - and specifically, the H/J world - be held to the same standards? It boggles the mind.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Irish Ei's View Post


                                        Katie Prudent, under an alias username
                                        That was hilarious and insane, right?
                                        Let me apologize in advance.

                                        Comment


                                        • Does anyone really think this is all about one fellow 50 years years ago???
                                          *****
                                          You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                                          Comment

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