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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by Irish Ei's View Post

    Junior Johnson
    Scott Canard
    Teddi Ismond
    Katie Prudent, under an alias username
    I'm friends with Scott Canard on Facebook and saw an "I stand with George" post from him today, which has now disintegrated into the same kind of comments we've seen everywhere else. Guess this is one way to weed out my "friends" list.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

      That’s kind of a stretch. I have watched many of his recent clinics, on Livestream from WEF over recent years. It doesn’t mean I gave him any money or saw any abuse or was a silent observer of abuse. I am sure many, many COTH posters watched those clinics. None of this is “on me.” I’ve never met the man in person. I taught myself to ride with HSE, though, so I do owe him that, I guess?
      "All of us" as mentioned in the sentence I wrote before that one and my earlier, quoted post. The people who heard / helped spread the rumors and still rode with or attended his clinics. Why would you think I meant someone like you who had never had any connection with the man?

      ohmyheck, all's well!
      "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

      Comment


      • Originally posted by McGurk View Post
        Excerpt re: the reserpine testing.
        Oh good grief. And he was on the D&M committee! While he was drugging horses! He wrote that!
        'thought it would be embarrassing but in the end, no big deal.'
        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

        Comment


        • Originally posted by TooManyBays View Post

          Yeah, I’m sure many of these statements will disappear after a few days. Shock and disbelief make people say things they haven’t thought through.
          I hope this is the case, but I can't help think that there's an element of panic and "circle the wagons" for some who are waiting for a similar email.

          I have been through the devastating experience of finding out something truly vile about a close family member -- a man I greatly admired, loved and liked. It came out of a clear bue sky -- I had NO inkling; none. While I was completely shocked and disoriented, I was able to accept it as truth pretty quickly. There was no investigation, but everyone's stories were consistent (and eventually he admitted it). Was I his "supporter"? Yes, in the sense that I couldn't just turn off my love for a family member I'd known for 30 years. I didn't want him dead. But it also never occurred to me to deny his guilt, or (god forbid) attack the people he'd hurt. And this was a man I had a deep, close, loving relationship with - not someone I knew professionally or as a celebrity, so I'd say I had a lot more invested in believing he was a good man than if I'd worked with him, taken a clinic with him, or read his columns in PH. It was not that complicated to simultaneously love a person and yet believe, accept and hate what he had done. Painful as hell (STILL painful, after several years), but not complicated. And most importantly -- it's the moral thing to do.

          I hope GHM's "supporters" can make the same moral choice.

          Comment


          • Ron Danta? O am so disappointed by this.
            Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

              Your statement that I have bolded is untrue. It's a misconception spewed frequently by those in opposition to SafeSport, yet is clearly disproven in the SafeSport policies:

              https://uscenterforsafesport.org/wp-...yperlinked.pdf

              A simplified graphic can be found here:

              https://uscenterforsafesport.org/wp-...-Process-2.pdf

              From pp. 23-24 of the policies:



              Penalties like "permanently ineligible" are not handed down by SafeSport lightly.

              Also, after Rob Gage's death, I learned a wealth of knowledge about the inner workings of SafeSport. One of the greatest things I learned is that the use of temporary suspensions and act of "blasting names," which was originally done if the original intake process revealed a credible complaint, has more or less been abandoned.
              Was GHM allowed to confront his accuser to defend himself? Was GHM deemed innocent until proven guilty? If proven guilty, where is the evidence? After almost 50 years? Please. Where is the legal standard of the accuser being required to produce credible evidence in a court of law, before a judge? Where have GHM's Constitutional rights to a fair trial been enabled? This is the problem with SS. It operates outside the established law of the land and has the power to destroy lives and reputations based solely on accusations. It is a sick NGO, endorsed by congressional members who make no secret of their agenda. Wake up. This is so much bigger than GHM, but he has become the keystone.Seriously, do you want to live by random standards of justice, where anyone with a grudge can accuse with impunity?
              Form follows function, or does function follow form?

              www.clearvisionequine.com

              http://clearvisionequine.blogspot.com

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Irish Ei's View Post
                More members of the FB group
                Holly Hugo-Vidal
                Ron Danta
                Robert Ross
                Vanessa Brown
                Dianne DeFrancieux-Grod (sp?)

                I have not really read the posts, I'm just listing names as they appear,regardless of their reasons for being there
                I hope you and others are reading the posts enough to make sure they are actually there to support him, not just to observe the activity in the group, before you post their names here as supporters.

                Especially since several people have posted here that they are members of the group strictly for that purpose of observation.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

                  It came from his book. And as someone else said earlier.... if you get more creative in terms of considering situations involving multiple partners simultaneously... the numbers become slightly more possible. Though still implausible.

                  I find the mentality of anyone who makes such a claim BIZARRE. There is no good explanation. Malignant narcissism.
                  Also bathhouses. But still not sure that's going to get you to 10K.
                  The Evil Chem Prof

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                    Well he didn't have sex with Robert, a well established criteria for establishing sexual predation...
                    Or if he did, would he really have told his husband?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by boosma47 View Post
                      Was GHM allowed to confront his accuser to defend himself? Was GHM deemed innocent until proven guilty? If proven guilty, where is the evidence? After almost 50 years? Please. Where is the legal standard of the accuser being required to produce credible evidence in a court of law, before a judge? Where have GHM's Constitutional rights to a fair trial been enabled? This is the problem with SS. It operates outside the established law of the land and has the power to destroy lives and reputations based solely on accusations. It is a sick NGO, endorsed by congressional members who make no secret of their agenda. Wake up. This is so much bigger than GHM, but he has become the keystone.Seriously, do you want to live by random standards of justice, where anyone with a grudge can accuse with impunity?
                      USEF is a workplace. A private organization. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not the standard in any workplace or private organization.

                      GHM was allowed to question his accuser in the investigation process. Evidence from both parties was provided to investigators. If you don't believe me, please refer back to the SafeSport code which I linked for you before, p. 23-24:

                      https://uscenterforsafesport.org/wp-...yperlinked.pdf

                      I am a teacher. If allegations of sexual misconduct were reported to my administrators, I would immediately be placed on leave without pay. There's a good chance the press would get ahold of the story and my face and name would be blasted across the news. Then my workplace would decided whether or not to terminate me based on their own internal investigation, which could range from thorough to laughable. No judges, no fair trial, no confronting my accuser. I could try to fight it in court, at astronomical expense. It would take a considerable amount of time to reach a resolution that route, and would I really want to continue working for an employer I just took to court?

                      In any number of professions, the process would be similar.

                      So please stop acting like his rights have been violated. They haven't. He essentially was "fired" from his job. He can still ride horses. He can still attend shows unaffiliated with USEF. He can still write books and magazine articles. Technically, he can't provide coaching/training services to USEF members, but if we have learned anything from the past, this ban won't stop it from happening. Or, he can do basically anything else he wants that doesn't involve a sport under the US Olympic umbrella.

                      If you have a problem with the fact that people can be fired from their jobs for committing felony misconduct, you have bigger fish to fry than SafeSport.
                      Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                        I am flabbergasted at the arrogance - he is on the Drugs and Medication Committee and gives an "iconic, wonderful" hunter reserpine??? And then, aw shucks, people eventually forget when you CHEAT and get caught.
                        Why would a "wonderful horseman" need to load a horse up with reserpine and pole him?

                        Comment


                        • I was a professional in the hunter jumper world eons ago. I rode with a protégé of GHM's, and went to Hunterdon on occasion, mostly to watch other peoples lessons. I do not go for screaming and demeaning. At one point in my career, my mother pointed me out to GHM, who made a positive comment about my leg position. That was as close as I came to instruction by the man.

                          In my area, there were ALWAYS rumors, to the point that they were jokes. Back in the day, things were probably more morally lax than they should have been, and people did...things. One of those, allegedly, was getting younger men asked by that BNT for oral gratification, which was apparently a very consistent theme. So, when you are looking at 10K partners, consider the limited period of time that takes. And multiply it by Gawd knows how many.

                          People do many things to be **close** to those they consider to be the power brokers in their business, or sport. And consider that for some, that kind of random sexual activity, upon request, is acceptable. I tend to believe that the gay community, as I know it, was even more closeted back then, than now. Things happened, but it was kept quiet. And now, (as it should have been then) being coerced into any form of sex is completely unacceptable. So, using todays lens on yesterdays activities is happening.

                          Sunshine really is the best disinfectant.
                          When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                          www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                          http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tiramit View Post

                            "All of us" as mentioned in the sentence I wrote before that one and my earlier, quoted post. The people who heard / helped spread the rumors and still rode with or attended his clinics. Why would you think I meant someone like you who had never had any connection with the man?

                            ohmyheck, all's well!
                            Because you indicated that other poster who “watched” clinics in the past and recently was complicit because s/he continued watching 40 years later. S/he didn’t say any of the recent stuff was in person, could well also have been the Horsemastership series like many of us. Most of us who have been around a while have heard the rumors, too....I sure have. I mean, if I hadn’t already heard, his memoir didn’t leave much to the imagination.

                            in short— I thought your assumption that watching = complicit behavior was perhaps not fair to that poster. That’s all. I also don’t think that hearing rumors indicates you shouldn’t attend someone’s clinics....I mean I can think of precious few trainers I HAVEN’T heard rumors about, I have no idea what is true and what isn’t. The horse world is chin deep in rumor and backstabbing, I try to tune it out as much as possible.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                              USEF is a workplace. A private organization. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not the standard in any workplace or private organization.

                              GHM was allowed to question his accuser in the investigation process. Evidence from both parties was provided to investigators. If you don't believe me, please refer back to the SafeSport code which I linked for you before, p. 23-24:

                              https://uscenterforsafesport.org/wp-...yperlinked.pdf

                              I am a teacher. If allegations of sexual misconduct were reported to my administrators, I would immediately be placed on leave without pay. There's a good chance the press would get ahold of the story and my face and name would be blasted across the news. Then my workplace would decided whether or not to terminate me based on their own internal investigation, which could range from thorough to laughable. No judges, no fair trial, no confronting my accuser. I could try to fight it in court, at astronomical expense. It would take a considerable amount of time to reach a resolution that route, and would I really want to continue working for an employer I just took to court?

                              In any number of professions, the process would be similar.

                              So please stop acting like his rights have been violated. They haven't. He essentially was "fired" from his job. He can still ride horses. He can still attend shows unaffiliated with USEF. He can still write books and magazine articles. Technically, he can't provide coaching/training services to USEF members, but if we have learned anything from the past, this ban won't stop it from happening. Or, he can do basically anything else he wants that doesn't involve a sport under the US Olympic umbrella.

                              If you have a problem with the fact that people can be fired from their jobs for committing felony misconduct, you have bigger fish to fry than SafeSport.
                              This. In a myriad of professions, *this* is SOP. I'm baffled that so many people are unaware.
                              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                                I know it’s incredibly frustrating right now but anyone who hasn’t FB needs to be on the CoTH article and just repeating the truth about the investigation and the process...we need to help people understand the truth.
                                I tried...
                                The Evil Chem Prof

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Salty View Post
                                  I am so, so glad that it was not Carl Hester!

                                  I think we should use peoples' entire names, not just initials, unless the person is the main topic of discussion, such as GHM. It would avoid a lot of confusion.
                                  Seriously, I adore Carl Hester (who I believe does seem to have a very deep love of every horse he's ridden, incredible humility given his accomplishments, and who is genuinely supportive of his riders, as well as is funny as hell without being mean), and the momentary confusion was like a punch to my gut. Glad just to see his usual happy Facebook posts when I scurried over.

                                  I'm already very disappointed in Robert Dover, who always seemed like such a kind man, including when teaching his clinics to aspiring pro young riders. Really shaking my head at his tone-deaf excuses.

                                  Beezie Madden's response was very diplomatic and cagey, based on what I read on COTH's article on the subject.

                                  https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...ort-suspension

                                  Check out the latest Fortune's Fool novel, Courage to the Sticking Place!

                                  Comment


                                  • It less like being fired from your job and more like not being allowed to work for Microsoft, and instead having to work for any of a million other smaller employers.

                                    He can still ply his trade all over the place, just not at select venues at select times.
                                    Let me apologize in advance.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by MHM View Post

                                      I hope you and others are reading the posts enough to make sure they are actually there to support him, not just to observe the activity in the group, before you post their names here as supporters.

                                      Especially since several people have posted here that they are members of the group strictly for that purpose of observation.
                                      I'm simply providing a list of names of members of the page. Period.

                                      The tenor over there now reads as if SafeSport procedures and USEF's lack of action are the enemies.
                                      Lots quitting or not renewing, calls to boycott USEFs partners , calling or writing Senators kind of stuff.
                                      And lots unable to seperate Safesport from legal criminal procedure.
                                      No, I'm not participating
                                      *************************
                                      Go, Baby, Go......
                                      Aefvue Farms Footing Inspector

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Silk View Post

                                        Yes...and from what I remember, a now-California based trainer took the fall for it (willingly)
                                        That is my understanding. And the trainer is one that Kristen Hardin mentions in her post as threatening her.
                                        The Evil Chem Prof

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by boosma47 View Post
                                          Was GHM allowed to confront his accuser to defend himself? Was GHM deemed innocent until proven guilty? If proven guilty, where is the evidence? After almost 50 years? Please. Where is the legal standard of the accuser being required to produce credible evidence in a court of law, before a judge? Where have GHM's Constitutional rights to a fair trial been enabled? This is the problem with SS. It operates outside the established law of the land and has the power to destroy lives and reputations based solely on accusations. It is a sick NGO, endorsed by congressional members who make no secret of their agenda. Wake up. This is so much bigger than GHM, but he has become the keystone.Seriously, do you want to live by random standards of justice, where anyone with a grudge can accuse with impunity?
                                          THIS^ is the issue. And it scares the living daylights out of anyone who can see the Big Picture. The most recent article on COTH states that GHM was suspended for "Safe Sport violations that allegedly took place between 1968 and 1972." Huh?

                                          Would one of the attorneys present please explain how one can be held RETROACTIVELY in violation by a group that DID NOT EXIST, would not exist for another 48 years, at the time of the violation?

                                          CONTEXT of those times is everything! ALL of it--the parties and bars, the furtive gay scene, the poling, the dope--people had different issues than today's mores, surveillance culture and litigious atmosphere. Was a lot of that stuff smart, or nice, or ethical? NO it was not, but please note the context was campus activity in the "Animal House" era, the "Mad Men's"office or the director's "casting couch." It was a different world, to judge people today for what took place half a century ago is insane in any context! We no longer live in that world. (Unless, of course, you'd like to also memory-hole the careers of at least 6 Presidents!) Another thing to realize is that in those days, horses were not pets--they were just emerging from the era of expendable "using" animals and much more a means to an end than today. Pros in those days did the riding at the high levels, ammies rarely. Rich ammies demanded wins and paid the bills. Pros did what they had to do to win and mostly got away with it. And plenty of officialdom, then as now, was corrupted by said money.

                                          This is going to end up in civil court, and it won't be pretty.

                                          Comment

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