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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by Saskatoonian View Post
    COTH posted Prudent's comment.
    https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...eU7-6vWrMYZryQ

    I'm having a hell of a time with the level of ignorance on display. Time to go ride and be grateful for my barn.
    Can we at least give Beezie Madden a hand for not being despicable and actually making an appropriate statement?

    And Robert Ridland at least dodged the question.

    I was thankful for Jennifer Baas' insight.
    Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

    Comment


    • Tex, I thought the exact same thing. I do a lot of media responses in my job and that is a perfectly crafted statement that is fair and balanced.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 541hunter View Post
        I see there are still people popping into this thread to wail and gnash their teeth about due process and constitutional rights and so on. I won't quote any of them in hopes that they've decided to leave but I am going to paste my response to similar sentiments an acquaintance posted on Facebook:

        Doctors can be prohibited from practicing medicine for misconduct without a criminal trial (just investigation from their state medical board). Lawyers can be disbarred. Social workers can have their license revoked. Every professional licensing entity I can think of to look up has some kind of internal investigation process that can result in a licensee being banned from the association without criminal conviction in a court of law. It's a near-universal practice in the professional world and pretty clearly NOT a violation of anyone's constitutional right to a fair trial. Why should voluntary participation in an organized sport be different? We obviously don't know the facts in this case (though the NY Times reporter who wrote the Jimmy Williams story has been investigating GHM for months before the sanctions dropped and is poised to publish an in-depth article), and the appeal may well overturn the sanction. But to say that the sanctioning process is a violation of constitutional rights is obtuse at best.
        I'm not taking any position other than that anyone who abuses anyone else that has placed their trust in them should be punished.

        But, as professional that works in a system dealing with the discipline of professional licenses, while every state is different, in ours, your case is public when probable cause is found, and a public charging document is filed, which an accused person has the opportunity to request a full hearing (also public) and contest the charges, and the charges have to be proven before an administrative judge, before anyone's license is acted upon.

        There are statutory conditions that would allow for an emergency suspension, but in 11 years, I've only been involved in two, and if that route is necessary, the accused gets a speedy evidentiary hearing in front of a judge. The only time our Board considers allegations and hands out punishments without a trial is when the Respondent/licensee elects to agree to a settlement, or doesn't contest facts and asks for fines/punishment. (which is frankly, what happens most of the time, because our investigation system is quite thorough, and my cases are seen twice by a panel after investigation and usually the written report of an expert.)

        Also, appellate law has held, and our state law says, that when a professional license is put in jeopardy, you are entitled to due process, and states what that is. The big difference here is that USEF is NOT a licensing agency and horse shows and sanctioned events by USEF are private and can ban people.

        So, no info on the whole Safe Sport situation, just a bit of information on how licensing law works in our state. Having reviewed the helpful flow chart, the Safe Sport process is not super similar to our process. Disclaimer though, other states are different.

        Carry on!
        I have Higher Standards ...do you? Find us on FB!
        Higher Standards Custom Leather Care -- Handcrafted Saddle Soap

        Comment


        • "Originally posted by caffeinated View Post
          He also bragged publicly about entering dressing rooms at his pageants, so he could see naked women, with minor girls present. So, there's that.

          (sorry not sorry)"




          Originally posted by rollingabout View Post

          Proof? Your TDS is showing.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFaQL_kv_QY

          Comment


          • I joined and scrolled through a little bit. It was nauseating. Saw a few acquaintances on there. One, who is a big H/J rider - not a surprise. Lots of screwballs saying that this is Pelosi's fault and that a formal congressional investigation into SS is in order. Lots of "something random that happened 50 years ago!" .... people with businesses (one of the admins is a realtor in Orlando - won't be using/recommending him ever! What a complete idiot). I left the group after maybe two minutes. Gross.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tiramit View Post

              I have to ask, why do you continue to attend his clinics? If you've seen him publicly fondle a boy and be horrid to countless others--enough to never ride in his clinic yourself--why did you show up? Why are you still supporting him with your attendance only to talk badly about him online?

              This is the problem. This is how someone who has had so many negatives said about him, has such a reputation for bullying and belittlement, has been able to carry on. It's not just the wealthy owners and parents who have helped create his position, it's everyone who did nothing but whisper and talk over the last 50+ years.

              Kudos to LaurieB's dad. He's the only one mentioned here who seems to have actually tried to stop the bullying and verbal abuse. Everyone else has gossiped. I wasn't part of the inner circle who witnessed first-hand sexual abuse, but I still take ownership because I did hear the stories and still rode.

              Until we all step up when we see or hear a problem, any problem, the sport's culture will remain a "carry-on until you're caught environment."
              Did you catch dannyboy's post 443? It's a good read. In it they describe riding since the early 60s and attending GM clinics in the 70s. So almost five decades ago. I'm assuming these are the clinics referred to?

              Nobody, particularly youngsters, was calling anybody out back then. It would have been the death knell of your equestrian existence.

              I 100% agree with your see something, step up and say something viewpoint and thankfully the next generation is learning the skills to do so. I just don't think it can be applied retroactively with any kind of remonstrance towards a young rider immersed in the cultural times of half a century ago.
              One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
              William Shakespeare

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Irish Ei's View Post
                More members of the FB group
                Holly Hugo-Vidal
                Ron Danta
                Robert Ross
                Vanessa Brown
                Dianne DeFrancieux-Grod (sp?)

                I have not really read the posts, I'm just listing names as they appear,regardless of their reasons for being there
                It’s hardly a surprise, but two names obviously need to be on the list...

                Candice King
                Susie Hutchison

                Susie’s own public Facebook page is frankly astounding. I had sympathy when the article came forward last year. No more. Sorry. This is not ok.

                Comment


                • Texarkana agreed. I was relieved to see Beezie's response. I just admire her so much, and was so worried she'd say something that would injure my feelings toward her lol.

                  As for the ones who ARE saying things that are just gross...well, at least they're going on the record and letting us see what we're dealing with, I suppose.

                  Comment


                  • Bensmom thanks for the write up, that's helpful for my education. I posted something else a while back with links to my state's medical board processes, which seem closer to Safe Sport's, though with slightly more transparent. I do think the analogy stands however, that it is not at all unheard of for internal investigations and sanctioning to occur in professional organizations based on alleged misconduct. However, I'm not a lawyer, just a lowly higher ed marketing professional with a hot head and some time between meetings, so I could very well be missing a key piece of the pie!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                      Robert Dover - who has a lot going on inclduing his vegan tack line
                      Bernie Traurig - Equestrian Coach.com
                      Eric Lamaze (this pains me to type because I love Eric and how much he has overcome)
                      Chris Hector of Horse Magazine https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/wh.../hector-chris/

                      A small list to start of those to unfollow.
                      Before everyone starts throwing the baby out with the bath water, I would give this a few days to sink in. There are many BNTs that know George on a close personal level. If one of your good friends was given a SS ban, you might act the same. Disbelief, saying it can’t be true, SS must have made a mistake, etc.
                      Once the shock wears off they may play a different tune. I would give them the benefit of the doubt until they can have a few days to think it over.

                      Edit: I’m not talking about the people who cliniced with him once and are having little meltdowns on social media. I’m talking about those who know him very well.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CPL713 View Post
                        Texarkana agreed. I was relieved to see Beezie's response. I just admire her so much, and was so worried she'd say something that would injure my feelings toward her lol.

                        As for the ones who ARE saying things that are just gross...well, at least they're going on the record and letting us see what we're dealing with, I suppose.
                        I understand how tough it is to resolve your feelings when someone you deeply care about is painted to be someone other than what you thought they were.

                        But the lack of human decency is unreal. I don't know how many more times I can stomach inappropriate statements out of the mouths of my childhood idols. It's a relief every time someone with a voice (like Beezie) says the right thing publicly, regardless of their personal beliefs.
                        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TooManyBays View Post

                          Before everyone starts throwing the baby out with the bath water, I would give this a few days to sink in. There are many BNTs that know George on a close personal level. If one of your good friends was given a SS ban, you might act the same. Disbelief, saying it can’t be true, SS must have made a mistake, etc.
                          Once the shock wears off they may play a different tune. I would give them the benefit of the doubt until they can have a few days to think it over.
                          On that note I think I read that Eric Lamaze's statement has been deleted
                          One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                          William Shakespeare

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ohmyheck View Post

                            Did you catch dannyboy's post 443? It's a good read. In it they describe riding since the early 60s and attending GM clinics in the 70s. So almost five decades ago. I'm assuming these are the clinics referred to?

                            Nobody, particularly youngsters, was calling anybody out back then. It would have been the death knell of your equestrian existence.

                            I 100% agree with your see something, step up and say something viewpoint and thankfully the next generation is learning the skills to do so. I just don't think it can be applied retroactively with any kind of remonstrance towards a young rider immersed in the cultural times of half a century ago.
                            Thank you, I did. My impression has been she's attended them over the years, not only in the 70s, based on this section:

                            Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                            I would never ride in a George Morris clinic, but I watched many of them, starting way back, I don't know, in the 1970's maybe. I would never put up with his abusiveness. "You're fat" "You're dumber than a box of rocks" "you're a dumb blonde" and so on. I watched him put his hands all over a young teenage boy at the first clinic I ever saw, "correcting his position" and vowed right then never to ride with him. Did it affect my career? Maybe. I certainly could never put "rode with George Morris" on my resume, but I considered it a worthwhile trade-off.
                            and then at a recent clinic, as stated with this comment:

                            Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                            I saw GM essentially molest some random boy in a public setting at a clinic some 40 years ago under the guise of correcting his position and I was shocked at the time by what he was doing. No, the accusations don't surprise me in the least. Back then, no one said a word. In fact, I've never seen anyone publicly take GM on for his rampant verbal abuse of a child (or adult) at a clinic, even recently. Can you imagine what would happen to them if they did? Is there anyone here with the guts to do that?
                            By her/his (?) own comments, Dannyboy attended GM clinics and watched what she calls abuse over the span of 40 years. I'm not trying to pick on this poster specifically, only using her as an example of how people who have claimed abuse did nothing for a very long time. That's on all of us.
                            "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 541hunter View Post
                              Bensmom thanks for the write up, that's helpful for my education. I posted something else a while back with links to my state's medical board processes, which seem closer to Safe Sport's, though with slightly more transparent. I do think the analogy stands however, that it is not at all unheard of for internal investigations and sanctioning to occur in professional organizations based on alleged misconduct. However, I'm not a lawyer, just a lowly higher ed marketing professional with a hot head and some time between meetings, so I could very well be missing a key piece of the pie!
                              Honestly, in some states, I think you are correct. I've spoken with other licensing Board staff and been quite surprised that their process is not as intense as ours! This has been really interesting for me to look into how SS is different than what we do -- and we tend to give "more" due process and err on the side of being fair to everyone as much as possible. Balancing the safety of the public and the protection of people's licenses can be tricky sometimes, and we do see quite a bit of "I didn't want to pay my bill, so I'm filing a complaint" behavior. But, the system usually works in those instances, and the investigation catches that.

                              If SS's investigations are as thorough as ours are, I'd be satisfied with that. Because I can say that by the time we take action on someone's license, it is pretty indisputable that it is justified.

                              (Of course, sometimes I have an identity crisis, having been accused of being the worst dictatorial prosecutor ever -- one lawyer said I'm the "antichrist" Seriously. And then on the other side, when we don't immediately revoke licenses, we are the Keystone Cops and totally inept. You just can't win!)
                              I have Higher Standards ...do you? Find us on FB!
                              Higher Standards Custom Leather Care -- Handcrafted Saddle Soap

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ohmyheck View Post

                                On that note I think I read that Eric Lamaze's statement has been deleted
                                Yeah, I’m sure many of these statements will disappear after a few days. Shock and disbelief make people say things they haven’t thought through.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                                  Can we at least give Beezie Madden a hand for not being despicable and actually making an appropriate statement?

                                  And Robert Ridland at least dodged the question.

                                  I was thankful for Jennifer Baas' insight.
                                  Agreed!
                                  "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by TooManyBays View Post

                                    Before everyone starts throwing the baby out with the bath water, I would give this a few days to sink in. There are many BNTs that know George on a close personal level. If one of your good friends was given a SS ban, you might act the same. Disbelief, saying it can’t be true, SS must have made a mistake, etc.
                                    Once the shock wears off they may play a different tune. I would give them the benefit of the doubt until they can have a few days to think it over.
                                    So when my close friend was ripped out of our workplace in handcuffs on charges of statutory rape of a minor, I will agree that it was tough to resolve. I didn't know how to feel. To this day, it's still hard to believe. I never had even the slightest inkling he could be involved in such a thing, even though he was found guilty in court and may still be in jail.

                                    But you know what I didn't do? Take to the internet to trash the alleged victim and the judicial system. I know everyone processes things differently, but you also have a level of personal responsibility to be a decent human being. Yes, you may be angry for your friend and want to believe the allegations are untrue. Yet there are also other parties involved. Not to sound trite, but we all know there are two sides to every story and it is short-sighted to become utterly disrespectful when you only have your own perspective. Historical data indicates the majority of reports of sexual misconduct with a minor stem from a place of truth. To outright blame the victim and/or the process is not only in poor taste, it defies logic.
                                    Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                                    Comment


                                    • I know it’s incredibly frustrating right now but anyone who hasn’t FB needs to be on the CoTH article and just repeating the truth about the investigation and the process...we need to help people understand the truth.
                                      Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Tiramit View Post

                                        Thank you, I did. My impression has been she's attended them over the years, not only in the 70s, based on this section:

                                        then at a recent clinic, as stated with this comment:

                                        By her/his (?) own comments, Dannyboy attended GM clinics and watched what she calls abuse over the span of 40 years. I'm not trying to pick on this poster specifically, only using her as an example of how people who have claimed abuse did nothing for a very long time. That's on all of us.
                                        That’s kind of a stretch. I have watched many of his recent clinics, on Livestream from WEF over recent years. It doesn’t mean I gave him any money or saw any abuse or was a silent observer of abuse. I am sure many, many COTH posters watched those clinics. None of this is “on me.” I’ve never met the man in person.

                                        Comment


                                        • Tiramit Right I gotcha. Well hopefully it will be a brave new world going forward. But at least like one poster said, the lid is now off the nasty gross can of worms, or words to that effect (god I laughed!)
                                          One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                                          William Shakespeare

                                          Comment

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