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George Morris on the SS list

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  • I am once again thankful for the COTH forum. It is good for all of us to read these comments, most of them intelligently written, in order to think about the many sides to this difficult issue.

    Comment


    • I would not ride with him or pay him for anything before all this. I don't respect him as a person. He deliberately humiliated riders and was abusive to many who paid for his help and that disqualifies him as being respectable. Those of us who have been around for decades, before the internet and the cellphones and videotaping comments and having them go viral, know how mean he could be when it didn't get put out in public.
      "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
        Hypothetical question.

        Let's say this gets appealed and overturned. Are we ready to accept the individual back into the group without prejudice, without knowing the details of the appeal?
        Some of us NEVER accepted him in the first place.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post
          I would not ride with him or pay him for anything before all this. I don't respect him as a person. He deliberately humiliated riders and was abusive to many who paid for his help and that disqualifies him as being respectable.
          100% agree with you.

          Unfortunately, most of the rest of the HJ world does not agree with us.

          The question still stands, in a broader sense. If someone is accused and successfully appeals, are we ready to accept them back? If not, can we agree that a SS suspension is going to cause lifetime damage to someone's career, regardless of if the claims are justified or not?

          Before "anyone" comes at me guns blazing saying I'm a sympathizer, I'm not. I just think discussing all possibilities are important. Know thine enemy.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pds View Post

            Some of us NEVER accepted him in the first place.
            The question still stands, in a broader sense. Saying (g) you never accepted him to begin with is dodging the premise of the question.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Minxitbabe View Post

              I never said I wasn't part of equestrian sports I am just not affiliated with USEF. I am choosing not to be a member of a group that has decided to go the way of judgments against anyone just because. To be able to list someone as banned without actual legal judgement proving they are deserving is ridiculous.
              Good! We don't need people with your mindset in USEF. MOLESTATION IS NEVER EVER THE FAULT OF A CHILD.

              Comment


              • Parents need to take note of trainers and "professionals" on here and FB that do not support SS and move on to a trainer that does.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by pds View Post
                  Parents need to take note of trainers and "professionals" on here and FB that do not support SS and move on to a trainer that does.
                  THIS x 1000.
                  From now on, ponyfixer, i'll include foot note references.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Darkwave View Post

                    So....I actually discussed Safesport with two friends who coach minors in completely unrelated sports - synchronized swimming and high school cross country.

                    Friend who coaches synchro falls in the camp of "like what Safesport is trying to achieve, but there are major problems" - she cited concerns that she was not allowed in the locker room if any of her girls were (problematic if the locker room is where the bathroom is, or the only way to enter/exit the pool). She also said that there was frustration on her team because the girls who turned 18 were expected to unfriend their younger friends on social media. So that's an example of frustrations with Safesport outside of equestrian (we didn't talk about whether there had been any allegations of misconduct in her sport, and how those were viewed).

                    Friend who coaches cross country said that she was not required to be a member of USATF (the equivalent of USEF for running) in order to coach high school cross country, and Safesport hadn't really come up as a topic. This echoed what I've observed elsewhere in running - many who compete and coach in that sport are outside of USATF, as you don't really need to be a member of USATF in order to compete until you are at a certain level (and pretty much everyone at that level is over 18). I have seen far less announcements of Safesport actions from USATF then from USEF, but I think that's in part because USATF membership isn't as universal in running as USEF membership is in riding.

                    I'm guessing that running is not the only sport where you can be very involved in the sport without being a member of the national governing body, and thus subject to Safesport. So that may be a reason behind not all sports having the same uproar about Safesport.

                    Sure, and that's why I said 'most' competitive sports and not 'all'. I'm referring to the large pool of sporting groups which do fall under the SafeSport umbrella when I make the comparison.

                    A new set of federal regulations applied to organizations can naturally cause a ripple of uncertainty, misunderstanding and some pockets of resentment within the different groups in the initial stages. Clearly SafeSport has braced themselves for some of that until everyone becomes well versed in the regs and carries on with their business.

                    But the heightened level of hostility and bitterness towards SS combined with the actual closing of the ranks around those in the spotlight for misconduct appears to be a reaction unique to the equestrian sporting community.

                    My question is why.
                    One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                    William Shakespeare

                    Comment


                    • I know I'm preaching to the choir when I say the loud voceriforous minority will never ever reject these predators regardless.

                      I could care less about George specifically overturning his ban because many people know who and what he is, and have for more than my lifetime. It is sickening, but a known known.

                      My primary concern is what overturning his ban says to current victims and frankly to other sexual predators operating in sport today.
                      Let me apologize in advance.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                        I saw GM essentially molest some random boy in a public setting at a clinic some 40 years ago under the guise of correcting his position and I was shocked at the time by what he was doing. No, the accusations don't surprise me in the least. Back then, no one said a word. In fact, I've never seen anyone publicly take GM on for his rampant verbal abuse of a child (or adult) at a clinic, even recently. Can you imagine what would happen to them if they did? Is there anyone here with the guts to do that?

                        I only personally know 1 other person on the banned list and he has a criminal conviction for sexual misconduct with a minor. That's certainly not hearsay or unsubstantiated.

                        When SafeSport first came out, I had some serious doubts about it, although I never doubted that the Equestrian community needed it. Reading the hysterical rantings of people who say that it's absolutely the child's fault for not reporting abuse at the time and how people's lives are ruined because of one unsubstantiated rumor from 50 years ago has made me change my mind. Cumbersome it may be, but it is absolutely necessary.

                        BTW, I don't see this outpouring of support for some of the lesser-known names on the banned list. I guess you only get that if you're famous.
                        You SAW GM molest an underage person at a clinic (with others present as well, I presume) and no one reported that molestation to the authorities?

                        Assuming this is true... if there is a fact scenario that demonstrates why the USEF needs safe sport, here it is.
                        ~Veronica
                        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post
                          In other news, a rather interesting public post on Kristin Medall Simpson-Ferguson Hardin’s page in the last few hours.
                          https://www.facebook.com/1592221552/...8084458014948/

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                            The question still stands, in a broader sense. Saying (g) you never accepted him to begin with is dodging the premise of the question.
                            No, it's not. You are insisting we ignore everything he's done over the past 60 years and only consider the SafeSport opinion. No one exists in a vacuum. Everything a person does over his or her lifetime builds the reputation. People do stupid things, mean things, when they are young (and stupid and mean), but some of them grow up and accept responsibility for their behavior and apologize and make amends. George Morris is the epitome of arrogance.
                            "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                              No, it's not. You are insisting we ignore everything he's done over the past 60 years and only consider the SafeSport opinion. No one exists in a vacuum. Everything a person does over his or her lifetime builds the reputation. People do stupid things, mean things, when they are young (and stupid and mean), but some of them grow up and accept responsibility for their behavior and apologize and make amends. George Morris is the epitome of arrogance.
                              No she isn't. She was asking, in general, not necessarily in this specific case, if (g) we would be willing to welcome someone back into respected society if a ban was lifted due to the accusations being false. As in, the sexual abuse did not actually occur and a mistake was made.

                              In regards to GM, a lot of people say they didn't really like him much to begin with. For the ones that DID like him, but are now unsure because of this ban, would they be able to view him the same as they did before if by some chance the accusations turn out to be untrue? Obviously, that bit is not directed at anyone that never wanted anything to do with him to begin with.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                                I saw GM essentially molest some random boy in a public setting at a clinic some 40 years ago under the guise of correcting his position and I was shocked at the time by what he was doing. No, the accusations don't surprise me in the least. Back then, no one said a word. In fact, I've never seen anyone publicly take GM on for his rampant verbal abuse of a child (or adult) at a clinic, even recently. Can you imagine what would happen to them if they did? Is there anyone here with the guts to do that?
                                Fifty years ago (literally) my sister and I were showing our ponies at North Shore. We were schooling on the outside course the day before the show. Schooling was going on in a small jumper ring right next to us. George (who was just beginning to be George at the time) was working with a teenage girl I knew. She was 16. He repeatedly, and in a very loud voice, called her a c**t. My father who was there with us was shocked and outraged.

                                He marched over to the show office and demanded that GM be removed from the showgrounds. The officials told him that wasn't possible. To try to placate him, they said they would make George come to the office and apologize to him. My father said, "I don't want him to apologize to me. He needs to apologize to that poor girl." Which GM was duly made to do.

                                Did anything about his behavior change after that? Nope. If anything it only got worse. Fifty years...
                                www.laurienberenson.com

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

                                  Fifty years ago (literally) my sister and I were showing our ponies at North Shore. We were schooling on the outside course the day before the show. Schooling was going on in a small jumper ring right next to us. George (who was just beginning to be George at the time) was working with a teenage girl I knew. She was 16. He repeatedly, and in a very loud voice, called her a c**t. My father who was there with us was shocked and outraged.

                                  He marched over to the show office and demanded that GM be removed from the showgrounds. The officials told him that wasn't possible. To try to placate him, they offered to have George come to the office and apologize to him. My father said, "I don't want him to apologize to me. He needs to apologize to that poor girl." Which GM was duly made to do.

                                  Did anything about his behavior change after that? Nope. If anything it only got worse. Fifty years...
                                  I went to a clinic of his as a groom for a friend and he spent the entire time ridiculing the riders, making little nasty comments to the audience like "idiot," and "no surprise there" when riders messed up. He set up a challenging combination and would not let one rider try it, saying loudly, "you'll never make it through." So I guess he was on his best behavior.
                                  "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post
                                    I would not ride with him or pay him for anything before all this. I don't respect him as a person. He deliberately humiliated riders and was abusive to many who paid for his help and that disqualifies him as being respectable. Those of us who have been around for decades, before the internet and the cellphones and videotaping comments and having them go viral, know how mean he could be when it didn't get put out in public.
                                    Totally Agree! Back as far as the 80s when I started riding hunters I did not understand why anyone would pay this man, or any trainer, to verbally and emotionally abuse them. I went to the same shows in NJ he was at, watched a clinic he did, only once,yes before people videoed everyone's every move, . The man was awful to some. He seemed to have a sense of which riders who could get away with abusing.
                                    A trainer I rode with would travel with him on horse buying trip to Europe and watch him pick up Very young boys. Yes, here say but this trainer didn't spread it all around.
                                    I just don't understand why we humans don't want to believe our idols, as talented as they may be, can be just as lousy as human beings, horse trainer, celebrity , etc.

                                    First hand experience, I lived with a very handsome, charming man in the 90s that everyone liked. Obviously, so did I. He turned out to be into child pornography! I found the most disgusting pictures on his computer totally by accident. For 2 years I asked a therapist, How did I not know??? I was told, because people like him a Very, Very good at hiding that part of themselves.
                                    Adriane
                                    Happily retired but used to be:
                                    www.ParrotNutz.com

                                    Comment


                                    • I think the push back will cause details to come out and then those who are in support of GM are going to feel really stupid and awful when they see what the actual stories are. Careful what you wish for.
                                      Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                                        The question still stands, in a broader sense. If someone is accused and successfully appeals, are we ready to accept them back?
                                        I'm not because:

                                        1. Based on everything I've learned about the SafeSport process, plus the statistics showing the very small percentage of cases that actually lead to a significant sanction, I have faith in the process and confidence that any sanctions that are imposed are well deserved.

                                        2. Everything I've read about the appeals process makes me doubt the "justice" of an overturned sanction. For example, remember the guy whose appeal was granted because none of the witness would testify before the arbitrators? The witnesses were involved in a civil suit against the coach and their attorney advised them to not testify at the appeal. Several other cases were discussed on the Rob Gage thread where the individual may have won his appeal, but the appeal did nothing to convince me that the individual had not done what he was accused of doing.

                                        Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
                                        If not, can we agree that a SS suspension is going to cause lifetime damage to someone's career, regardless of if the claims are justified or not?
                                        Point 1: See above. I disagree that a successful appeal necessarily means that the claims weren't justified.

                                        Point 2: A SS suspension may cause embarrassment and lead some people to avoid the individual, but I think we have ample evidence that people can still have successful equestrian careers even with lifetime bans from USEF. So I doubt that a brief SS suspension that was subsequently overturned is going to have any lasting impacts on a person's career.

                                        "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                                        that's even remotely true."

                                        Homer Simpson

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by JanM View Post
                                          I know I should have expected it, but I made the big mistake of looking at comments on the COTH facebook page, and the victim shaming was horrifically bad. After looking at the RG, and GM page comments, I can't believe anyone wonders why victims don't come forward.
                                          I think COTH should delete those posts personally.
                                          Boss Mare Eventing Blog

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