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George Morris on the SS list

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  • I get the impression from watching the live feed that SafeSport isn't really interested in negotiating with pedophile supporters.

    Comment


    • QUOTE=Beenthere;n8298786]Arbitration would be ideal because three UNBIASED legal professionals with evidence based knowledge of the legal system would decide the issue. I would love to see that day![/QUOTE]

      Originally posted by Beenthere View Post
      Yeah like being 16 and scared to death of being killed and being a poor kid that had to beg for someone to give me a horse job so I could ride and you think I should have reported it......not a shot in hell. Big of you to think I would know that at 16 years old.......If you read what I wrote I didn't relate death to the event until the killing issues came up THREE years later

      So you think I would get anyone to listen to say hey, three years ago I saw blah blah blah......come on, give me a break AND COME DOWN OFF YOUR PEDESTAL......
      Food for thought regarding BN. Wanted to quote before she made these posts disappear.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

        My immediate reaction is that it would be a BIG relief to all the 60 - 80 year old folks who were apparently engaging in really ugly behavior decades ago if complaints about them weren’t prioritized.

        Unreal.

        The other one that caught my attention is number 3. They want a “full exchange” of all information gathered during an investigation.

        I read that to mean they want to know who all the witnesses are, and what they all said.

        Yeah.... that’s an issue. A big one. Because call me crazy... but my guess is that will lead to retaliation and should that measure go through... no one will EVER want to say ANYTHING about certain people at the top of the sport. People like GM.

        Just my opinion. Maybe I am missing something though.
        Oh, no. You are spot on. But let’s also remember that sexual predators and pedophiles don’t outgrow the behavior.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

          $6,000 would be pretty cheap for an arbitration. Unless SafeSport has a special deal, most JAMS arbitrators charge between $500-1,000 per hour, sometimes more. Assume the arbitration is one day, and the arbitrator has spent a couple hours reading documents ahead of time and spends a few hours afterwards writing his or her decision. That can easily add up to $10k. There is also a $1500 filing fee.

          Mr. Henry may have been trying not to laugh at the idea that you can do a JAMS arbitration for $6k.

          My impression, which could be wrong, was that there was a set fee for arbitration, perhaps negotiated beforehand between SS and JAMS.







          Comment


          • Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post


            My impression, which could be wrong, was that there was a set fee for arbitration, perhaps negotiated beforehand between SS and JAMS.






            That’s what I understood from the presentation as well.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

              $6,000 would be pretty cheap for an arbitration. Unless SafeSport has a special deal, most JAMS arbitrators charge between $500-1,000 per hour, sometimes more. Assume the arbitration is one day, and the arbitrator has spent a couple hours reading documents ahead of time and spends a few hours afterwards writing his or her decision. That can easily add up to $10k. There is also a $1500 filing fee.

              Mr. Henry may have been trying not to laugh at the idea that you can do a JAMS arbitration for $6k.
              So, you can go straight to the Safe Sport Code for this one. A Temporary Measures Hearing via JAMS costs $500 for the Respondent ($1500 total, 2/3 paid for by Safe Sport). Arbitration re: the final decision costs $5200. There may be additional costs for the Arbitrator's travel and for the rental of a location for the hearing to take place. If the Arbitrator sides with the Respondent, Safe Sport pays the fees. I agree that the costs seem extremely reasonable. There is also a hardship exemption if someone is unable to pay.

              In many workplaces, if you were accused of inappropriate behavior you likely could just be called to see an administrator and then terminated from your position without any option for a special hearing, and your only option for defending yourself would be to spend thousands of dollars of your own $$ hiring an attorney. I don't want to make light of how painful it must be to face an accusation of inappropriate behavior in either setting, but Safe Sport seems exceedingly fair and reasonable compared to the treatment a person might expect in the business world.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post

                So, you can go straight to the Safe Sport Code for this one. A Temporary Measures Hearing via JAMS costs $500 for the Respondent ($1500 total, 2/3 paid for by Safe Sport). Arbitration re: the final decision costs $5200. There may be additional costs for the Arbitrator's travel and for the rental of a location for the hearing to take place. If the Arbitrator sides with the Respondent, Safe Sport pays the fees. I agree that the costs seem extremely reasonable. There is also a hardship exemption if someone is unable to pay.

                In many workplaces, if you were accused of inappropriate behavior you likely could just be called to see an administrator and then terminated from your position without any option for a special hearing, and your only option for defending yourself would be to spend thousands of dollars of your own $$ hiring an attorney. I don't want to make light of how painful it must be to face an accusation of inappropriate behavior in either setting, but Safe Sport seems exceedingly fair and reasonable compared to the treatment a person might expect in the business world.
                Thanks for providing specific $ figures regarding arbitration fees. Additionally, with respect to fees, if the arbitrator rules against Safe Sport, arbitration fees paid up front by the accused will be reimbursed to the accused by Safe Sport.

                So again... why does Bonnie say that this is unfair or unjust? I’m not getting it or seeing that. At all. And honestly... the biggest expense for people going through the process is LIKELY going to be the billable hours they will have to pay an attorney if they want help throughout the process.

                Call me crazy... but I think Bonnie is well aware of this. She has offered pro bono services to people... so far... and that’s really swell.

                But if she was being intellectually honest honest about how unfair the whole thing is and expensive and onerous for the accused to defend themselves, I would think she would talk about the potential attorneys fees that people could be faced with. Not arbitration fees. Which will be reimbursed if a great attorney swoops in and gets the ruling overturned.

                Which I would imagine she is aware of as a possibility, given that she had a client just a few months ago who was preparing to go to arbitration on a Safe Sport matter.

                maybe the rules about reimbursing fees have changed since last June though. Or maybe they knew that the arbitrator was VERY unlikely to overturn the ban on that specific case, and thus those fees were not likely to be recouped. We don’t know. But I would imagine she has a good inclination if the facts of it all, and potential outcome - she was the attorney. And that makes me think her comments about how onerous and unfair the arbitration fees are just a bit ridiculous.
                Last edited by Virginia Horse Mom; Dec. 13, 2019, 10:42 PM. Reason: typo

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TheMoo View Post

                  You are aware of things like government contracts right?
                  JAMS is a private organizaation, using mostly retired judges, and each neutral.sets their own rates, which are generally high. I doubt they contract for set rates with the government.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post


                    My impression, which could be wrong, was that there was a set fee for arbitration, perhaps negotiated beforehand between SS and JAMS.
                    And why are we discussing fees at this point? The arbitration fees will be reimbursed, If you pay them (there is a financial hardship clause), and are found not to have been in violation.

                    There seems to be a very low bar here. I don't see why people are freaking out.

                    This should really not be that hard to understand.

                    I hope that intelligent people will continue to refrain from caving in to people who are loud, and obviously illogical, where child welfare is concerned.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

                      Thanks for providing specific $ figures regarding arbitration fees. Additionally, with respect to fees, if the arbitrator rules against Safe Sport, arbitration fees paid up front by the accused will be reimbursed to the accused by Safe Sport.

                      So again... why does Bonnie say that this is unfair or unjust? I’m not getting it or seeing that. At all. And honestly... the biggest expense for people going through the process is LIKELY going to be the billable hours they will have to pay an attorney if they want help throughout the process.

                      Call me crazy... but I think Bonnie is well aware of this. She has offered pro bono services to people... so far... and that’s really swell.

                      But if she was being intellectually honest honest about how unfair the whole thing is and expensive and onerous for the accused to defend themselves, I would think she would talk about the potential attorneys fees that people could be faced with. Not arbitration fees. Which will be reimbursed if a great attorney swoops in and gets the ruling overturned.

                      Which I would imagine she is aware of as a possibility, given that she had a client just a few months ago who was preparing to go to arbitration on a Safe Sport matter.

                      maybe the rules about reimbursing fees have changed since last June though. Or maybe they knew that the arbitrator was VERY unlikely to overturn the ban on that specific case, and thus those fees were not likely to be recouped. We don’t know. But I would imagine she has a good inclination if the facts of it all, and potential outcome - she was the attorney. And that makes me think her comments about how onerous and unfair the arbitration fees are just a bit ridiculous.
                      Bonnie says it’s unfair and unjust because her big name friends are unhappy that Dear Sainted George had the hammer drop on him.

                      Comment


                      • The irony in complaining about those fees is that I'm pretty effing sure the "big dogs" they're sooooooo worried about make more than that in commission on one sales horse... If they honestly cared about "Joe Schmoe" we'd have heard this crap long before GM got set down.
                        Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

                          Thanks for providing specific $ figures regarding arbitration fees. Additionally, with respect to fees, if the arbitrator rules against Safe Sport, arbitration fees paid up front by the accused will be reimbursed to the accused by Safe Sport.

                          So again... why does Bonnie say that this is unfair or unjust? I’m not getting it or seeing that. At all. And honestly... the biggest expense for people going through the process is LIKELY going to be the billable hours they will have to pay an attorney if they want help throughout the process.

                          Call me crazy... but I think Bonnie is well aware of this. She has offered pro bono services to people... so far... and that’s really swell.

                          But if she was being intellectually honest honest about how unfair the whole thing is and expensive and onerous for the accused to defend themselves, I would think she would talk about the potential attorneys fees that people could be faced with. Not arbitration fees. Which will be reimbursed if a great attorney swoops in and gets the ruling overturned.

                          Which I would imagine she is aware of as a possibility, given that she had a client just a few months ago who was preparing to go to arbitration on a Safe Sport matter.

                          maybe the rules about reimbursing fees have changed since last June though. Or maybe they knew that the arbitrator was VERY unlikely to overturn the ban on that specific case, and thus those fees were not likely to be recouped. We don’t know. But I would imagine she has a good inclination if the facts of it all, and potential outcome - she was the attorney. And that makes me think her comments about how onerous and unfair the arbitration fees are just a bit ridiculous.
                          BN’s comments about how onerous and unfair the arbitration fees are is completely ridiculous and almost certainly disingenuous. She is desperately searching for things to bash SS about. In the past she has said:
                          1. “At first SS was lifetime banning everyone.”
                          2. “90% of bans were overturned on appeal.”
                          3. “An appeal just addresses procedural issues of the SS investigation and does not address the merits of the case.”
                          OK, I’m paraphrasing since I don’t want to waste time looking stuff up, and if she’s not an idiot she will have attempted to erase these embarrassing false statements.
                          However, these patently untrue statements designed to bash SS certainly worked for a time in fomenting outrage at SS among her followers.
                          Complaining about the respondent’s bearing the burden of the cost of arbitration is ridiculous, but it’s not an actual lie like her other complaints. She understands the arbitration fees are pretty modest and necessary to create the right incentives (i.e. don’t insist on arbitration if you know you can’t win), just as she knew that 90% of bans were NOT overturned on appeal when she said that.

                          Comment


                          • I forgot ENTIRELY about the whole 90% of the bans are overturned upon appeal “fact” she lobbed out there early on

                            I am curious about what precisely the whole “legal fund” part of the Athletes for Equity budget is going to be used for.

                            If not assisting accused people they believe should be supported with arbitration fees... then what?

                            There were some pretty far out statements concerning the fight to ? overhaul ? overturn ? reform ? Safe Sport going all the way to the Supreme Court.

                            I’m rather perplexed about how or why these people are convinced of this though. Maybe Bonnie’s convinced them of it. I don’t know.

                            Oh well. They’ve raised over $19,000 already. If nothing else, they can at least help the next banned pedophile pay the arbitration fees in a last ditch effort to preserve the right to make a buck at molesting - OOPS - coaching kids.

                            I hope everyone who contributed money to this noble cause feels proud.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Belowthesalt View Post

                              JAMS is a private organizaation, using mostly retired judges, and each neutral.sets their own rates, which are generally high. I doubt they contract for set rates with the government.
                              They might. I work for the government. We use JAMS arbitrators and we negotiate lower government rates with arbitrators.
                              ~Veronica
                              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                              Comment


                              • A lot of private organizations contract for reduced rates for government and public service. It happens everyday with both goods and services.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post

                                  They might. I work for the government. We use JAMS arbitrators and we negotiate lower government rates with arbitrators.
                                  I found the answer: it is in Exhibit 1 to the SafeSport code. As of March 2018, the fee for a single-arbitrator arbitration is $5200, plus $300 per day for the room plus the arbitrator's travel expenses. And of course there would be attorney's fees if a party chooses to be represented.

                                  Paragraph 38 of the Code is the provision requiring reimbursement of the arbitrator fees if the respondent (accused) prevails, which I think is quite equitable. It's kind of like in a civil suit how the loser pays the prevailing party's costs (generally not including attorney's fees).

                                  Comment


                                  • Horsegirl's Mom, just to be extra clear for anyone else reading along, the $5200 is for arbitration of the final decision of Safe Sport. Arbitration regarding temporary measures is a much lower fee, $500.

                                    Comment


                                    • I don’t even know which of the Safe Sport threads is most suitable to post this comment to... but post it I must.

                                      Duncan is continuing on with public comments and his “unique” brand of dime store philosophy on social media. He has taken info from a Michael Henry’s Safe Sport presentation at the USHJA meeting... and apparently decided to chastise others for being “prudes.” Because apparently digital penetration of minors and anal intercourse with minors is really ??? not something Safe Sport should ban folks who coach minors for?!?!? And apparently he knows better than Safe Sport about the people that have been investigated. He seems confident that they shouldn’t have been banned and were no longer threats. But he’s confident about a whole heckuva a lot of nonsense.

                                      So here are his actual public comments... enough folks are following this thread, that they deserve to read and judge for themselves. He specifically is defending Rob Gage and GHM... he was friends with Gage.

                                      ”**** **** about now, yes, I can speak authoritatively on. One is dead.

                                      The other is over 80, and wrote extensively of his own preferences for all the world to know.

                                      And it’s an interesting thing- we are still a remarkably prudish and Puritan society. “Digital penetration” and “sodomy” are criminal language. There are many parts of the country where consenting adults are not allowed to engage in certain sex acts. One refers to “third base” in our rites of passage American lingo.

                                      I agree that underage situations have a huge effect on what “consent” is or isn’t.

                                      But each community and each family and each individual have a part, as do the time clocks of each body.

                                      My friend’s daughter had a “visit from the friend”, at 10 years old, and he is incredibly aware and strategic on the subject.

                                      My brother lost his virginity at 14. He walked several miles across town for the opportunity after our parents had gone to sleep, and then walked back before dawn.

                                      Another friend knew he was gay “when the doctor slapped my butt as a baby- I said thank you sir may I have another!” And he lost his virginity at 11. To a man. Who was horrified at himself.

                                      Victim? Abuser?

                                      Sex always has an aftermath, and we don’t talk about it publicly.

                                      We would rather pull goats out and slit their throats, and be vengefully satisfied.

                                      I mean to bring up the subject of restorative justice, again, and again, and again.

                                      “Offended”? Not a sufficient investigation of any such event...”

                                      Comment


                                      • That is the thought process of a pedophile.

                                        Comment


                                        • Duncan has lost his mind and frankly shouldnt be training anyone these days
                                          Let me apologize in advance.

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