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George Morris on the SS list

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    In other news concerning Safe Sport (as if we needed more news)

    Athletes for Equity in Sport has just put out a 6 point plan concerning reforms they think are appropriate. It’s in a letter format that has been shared on their Facebook page, and Diane Carney’s page. I would include a link... but my forum account won’t allow me to.

    I would copy and paste the text of all 6 points here also... but the way they published it with a letter onto Facebook wont allow me to either.

    I have the impression that they are not exactly enamored with my tendency to follow their public statements, copy them verbatim, and share on these forums so that folks can analyze the information
    Last edited by Virginia Horse Mom; Dec. 13, 2019, 07:20 PM. Reason: typo

    Comment


      Originally posted by TheMoo View Post

      I feel like there is nothing stopping people from mounting a legal challenge in an appellate court. If I’m wrong please correct me. However, it’s cheaper to go through JAMS and stick with arbitration. That being said..... You are smart and use your brain. When BN talks about fees you agree because YOU know through your own education that JAMS costs money. However, some people are not like you. And that is BN’s target audience. SOME people think it is Safe Sport who charges money not JAMS.

      I mean hell the last question of the night was about fees in the 6k+ range for Safe Sport. Dear Mr. Henry was trying not to laugh when the woman insisted that is what she heard.

      No BN is not wrong that there are fees associated. (Potentially). However she makes people who unlike yourself, don’t educate themselves think it’s safe sport who charges.
      $6,000 would be pretty cheap for an arbitration. Unless SafeSport has a special deal, most JAMS arbitrators charge between $500-1,000 per hour, sometimes more. Assume the arbitration is one day, and the arbitrator has spent a couple hours reading documents ahead of time and spends a few hours afterwards writing his or her decision. That can easily add up to $10k. There is also a $1500 filing fee.

      Mr. Henry may have been trying not to laugh at the idea that you can do a JAMS arbitration for $6k.

      Comment


        Wow I didn’t think the thread would veer so hard to
        Duncan. I hadn’t actually read his other recent posts but he was one of those casual Fbook friends. I think he is maybe three years younger than I? I recall he was riding ponies and my own trainer schooled him off and on. Good feel. He was one who thought highly of his ability and thought the world was against him even as a kid.

        I am more than aghast to read his comments.

        I believe in redemption and accept it as a completely non religious term.

        Virginia Horse Mom no problem on my Facebook moniker. Using both my alter here and a different name on social media bothers me. DON’T WORRY. Pair is my middle name😎

        It bears mentioning that to now he has not contacted me by phone. I doubt he will.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post
          In other news concerning Safe Sport (as if we needed more news)

          Athletes for Equity in Sport has just put out a 6 point plan concerning reforms they think are appropriate. It’s in a letter format that has been shared on their Facebook page, and Diane Carney’s page. I would include a link... but my forum account won’t allow me to.

          I would copy and paste the text of all 6 points here also... but the way they published it with a letter onto Facebook wont allow me to either.

          I have the impression that they are not exactly enamored with my tendency to follow their public statements, copy them verbatim, and share on these forums so that folks can analyze the information
          Here we go. I'm still reading it, but they make no sense. Prioritize the most recent reports? Why? Should an inappropriate text from 2 weeks ago be prioritized over a rape from 10 years ago? *eyeroll*

          Comment


            Virginia Horse Mom and @ubu&Goober Please don't think I’m judging you guys. I myself am not comfortable speculating. That is all.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

              $6,000 would be pretty cheap for an arbitration. Unless SafeSport has a special deal, most JAMS arbitrators charge between $500-1,000 per hour, sometimes more. Assume the arbitration is one day, and the arbitrator has spent a couple hours reading documents ahead of time and spends a few hours afterwards writing his or her decision. That can easily add up to $10k. There is also a $1500 filing fee.

              Mr. Henry may have been trying not to laugh at the idea that you can do a JAMS arbitration for $6k.
              You are aware of things like government contracts right?

              Comment


                Originally posted by Jenerationx View Post

                Here we go. I'm still reading it, but they make no sense. Prioritize the most recent reports? Why? Should an inappropriate text from 2 weeks ago be prioritized over a rape from 10 years ago? *eyeroll*
                My immediate reaction is that it would be a BIG relief to all the 60 - 80 year old folks who were apparently engaging in really ugly behavior decades ago if complaints about them weren’t prioritized.

                Unreal.

                The other one that caught my attention is number 3. They want a “full exchange” of all information gathered during an investigation.

                I read that to mean they want to know who all the witnesses are, and what they all said.

                Yeah.... that’s an issue. A big one. Because call me crazy... but my guess is that will lead to retaliation and should that measure go through... no one will EVER want to say ANYTHING about certain people at the top of the sport. People like GM.

                Just my opinion. Maybe I am missing something though.
                Last edited by Virginia Horse Mom; Dec. 13, 2019, 07:49 PM. Reason: typo

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

                  My immediate reaction is that it would be a BIG relief to all the 60 - 80 year old folks who were apparently engaging in really ugly behavior decades ago if complaints about them weren’t prioritized.

                  Unreal.

                  The other one that caught my attention is number 3. They want a “full exchange” of all information gathered during an investigation.

                  I read that to mean they want to know who all the witnesses are, and what they all said.

                  Yeah.... that’s an issue. A big one. Because call me crazy... but my guess is that will lead to retaliation and should that measure go through... no one will EVER want to say ANYTHING about certain people at the top of the sport. People like GM.

                  Just my opinion. Maybe I am missing something though.
                  I agree. Clearly they are not familiar with cases that are heavily redacted. My question is why didn’t they take up this crusade in 2018........ oh wait they did after a friend suicided.

                  I’ll admit I searched the forums for BNs past posts and even she admitted to ignoring a crime to keep riding.

                  Comment


                    I get the impression from watching the live feed that SafeSport isn't really interested in negotiating with pedophile supporters.

                    Comment


                      QUOTE=Beenthere;n8298786]Arbitration would be ideal because three UNBIASED legal professionals with evidence based knowledge of the legal system would decide the issue. I would love to see that day![/QUOTE]

                      Originally posted by Beenthere View Post
                      Yeah like being 16 and scared to death of being killed and being a poor kid that had to beg for someone to give me a horse job so I could ride and you think I should have reported it......not a shot in hell. Big of you to think I would know that at 16 years old.......If you read what I wrote I didn't relate death to the event until the killing issues came up THREE years later

                      So you think I would get anyone to listen to say hey, three years ago I saw blah blah blah......come on, give me a break AND COME DOWN OFF YOUR PEDESTAL......
                      Food for thought regarding BN. Wanted to quote before she made these posts disappear.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

                        My immediate reaction is that it would be a BIG relief to all the 60 - 80 year old folks who were apparently engaging in really ugly behavior decades ago if complaints about them weren’t prioritized.

                        Unreal.

                        The other one that caught my attention is number 3. They want a “full exchange” of all information gathered during an investigation.

                        I read that to mean they want to know who all the witnesses are, and what they all said.

                        Yeah.... that’s an issue. A big one. Because call me crazy... but my guess is that will lead to retaliation and should that measure go through... no one will EVER want to say ANYTHING about certain people at the top of the sport. People like GM.

                        Just my opinion. Maybe I am missing something though.
                        Oh, no. You are spot on. But let’s also remember that sexual predators and pedophiles don’t outgrow the behavior.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                          $6,000 would be pretty cheap for an arbitration. Unless SafeSport has a special deal, most JAMS arbitrators charge between $500-1,000 per hour, sometimes more. Assume the arbitration is one day, and the arbitrator has spent a couple hours reading documents ahead of time and spends a few hours afterwards writing his or her decision. That can easily add up to $10k. There is also a $1500 filing fee.

                          Mr. Henry may have been trying not to laugh at the idea that you can do a JAMS arbitration for $6k.

                          My impression, which could be wrong, was that there was a set fee for arbitration, perhaps negotiated beforehand between SS and JAMS.







                          Comment


                            Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post


                            My impression, which could be wrong, was that there was a set fee for arbitration, perhaps negotiated beforehand between SS and JAMS.






                            That’s what I understood from the presentation as well.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                              $6,000 would be pretty cheap for an arbitration. Unless SafeSport has a special deal, most JAMS arbitrators charge between $500-1,000 per hour, sometimes more. Assume the arbitration is one day, and the arbitrator has spent a couple hours reading documents ahead of time and spends a few hours afterwards writing his or her decision. That can easily add up to $10k. There is also a $1500 filing fee.

                              Mr. Henry may have been trying not to laugh at the idea that you can do a JAMS arbitration for $6k.
                              So, you can go straight to the Safe Sport Code for this one. A Temporary Measures Hearing via JAMS costs $500 for the Respondent ($1500 total, 2/3 paid for by Safe Sport). Arbitration re: the final decision costs $5200. There may be additional costs for the Arbitrator's travel and for the rental of a location for the hearing to take place. If the Arbitrator sides with the Respondent, Safe Sport pays the fees. I agree that the costs seem extremely reasonable. There is also a hardship exemption if someone is unable to pay.

                              In many workplaces, if you were accused of inappropriate behavior you likely could just be called to see an administrator and then terminated from your position without any option for a special hearing, and your only option for defending yourself would be to spend thousands of dollars of your own $$ hiring an attorney. I don't want to make light of how painful it must be to face an accusation of inappropriate behavior in either setting, but Safe Sport seems exceedingly fair and reasonable compared to the treatment a person might expect in the business world.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post

                                So, you can go straight to the Safe Sport Code for this one. A Temporary Measures Hearing via JAMS costs $500 for the Respondent ($1500 total, 2/3 paid for by Safe Sport). Arbitration re: the final decision costs $5200. There may be additional costs for the Arbitrator's travel and for the rental of a location for the hearing to take place. If the Arbitrator sides with the Respondent, Safe Sport pays the fees. I agree that the costs seem extremely reasonable. There is also a hardship exemption if someone is unable to pay.

                                In many workplaces, if you were accused of inappropriate behavior you likely could just be called to see an administrator and then terminated from your position without any option for a special hearing, and your only option for defending yourself would be to spend thousands of dollars of your own $$ hiring an attorney. I don't want to make light of how painful it must be to face an accusation of inappropriate behavior in either setting, but Safe Sport seems exceedingly fair and reasonable compared to the treatment a person might expect in the business world.
                                Thanks for providing specific $ figures regarding arbitration fees. Additionally, with respect to fees, if the arbitrator rules against Safe Sport, arbitration fees paid up front by the accused will be reimbursed to the accused by Safe Sport.

                                So again... why does Bonnie say that this is unfair or unjust? I’m not getting it or seeing that. At all. And honestly... the biggest expense for people going through the process is LIKELY going to be the billable hours they will have to pay an attorney if they want help throughout the process.

                                Call me crazy... but I think Bonnie is well aware of this. She has offered pro bono services to people... so far... and that’s really swell.

                                But if she was being intellectually honest honest about how unfair the whole thing is and expensive and onerous for the accused to defend themselves, I would think she would talk about the potential attorneys fees that people could be faced with. Not arbitration fees. Which will be reimbursed if a great attorney swoops in and gets the ruling overturned.

                                Which I would imagine she is aware of as a possibility, given that she had a client just a few months ago who was preparing to go to arbitration on a Safe Sport matter.

                                maybe the rules about reimbursing fees have changed since last June though. Or maybe they knew that the arbitrator was VERY unlikely to overturn the ban on that specific case, and thus those fees were not likely to be recouped. We don’t know. But I would imagine she has a good inclination if the facts of it all, and potential outcome - she was the attorney. And that makes me think her comments about how onerous and unfair the arbitration fees are just a bit ridiculous.
                                Last edited by Virginia Horse Mom; Dec. 13, 2019, 09:42 PM. Reason: typo

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by TheMoo View Post

                                  You are aware of things like government contracts right?
                                  JAMS is a private organizaation, using mostly retired judges, and each neutral.sets their own rates, which are generally high. I doubt they contract for set rates with the government.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post


                                    My impression, which could be wrong, was that there was a set fee for arbitration, perhaps negotiated beforehand between SS and JAMS.
                                    And why are we discussing fees at this point? The arbitration fees will be reimbursed, If you pay them (there is a financial hardship clause), and are found not to have been in violation.

                                    There seems to be a very low bar here. I don't see why people are freaking out.

                                    This should really not be that hard to understand.

                                    I hope that intelligent people will continue to refrain from caving in to people who are loud, and obviously illogical, where child welfare is concerned.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

                                      Thanks for providing specific $ figures regarding arbitration fees. Additionally, with respect to fees, if the arbitrator rules against Safe Sport, arbitration fees paid up front by the accused will be reimbursed to the accused by Safe Sport.

                                      So again... why does Bonnie say that this is unfair or unjust? I’m not getting it or seeing that. At all. And honestly... the biggest expense for people going through the process is LIKELY going to be the billable hours they will have to pay an attorney if they want help throughout the process.

                                      Call me crazy... but I think Bonnie is well aware of this. She has offered pro bono services to people... so far... and that’s really swell.

                                      But if she was being intellectually honest honest about how unfair the whole thing is and expensive and onerous for the accused to defend themselves, I would think she would talk about the potential attorneys fees that people could be faced with. Not arbitration fees. Which will be reimbursed if a great attorney swoops in and gets the ruling overturned.

                                      Which I would imagine she is aware of as a possibility, given that she had a client just a few months ago who was preparing to go to arbitration on a Safe Sport matter.

                                      maybe the rules about reimbursing fees have changed since last June though. Or maybe they knew that the arbitrator was VERY unlikely to overturn the ban on that specific case, and thus those fees were not likely to be recouped. We don’t know. But I would imagine she has a good inclination if the facts of it all, and potential outcome - she was the attorney. And that makes me think her comments about how onerous and unfair the arbitration fees are just a bit ridiculous.
                                      Bonnie says it’s unfair and unjust because her big name friends are unhappy that Dear Sainted George had the hammer drop on him.

                                      Comment


                                        The irony in complaining about those fees is that I'm pretty effing sure the "big dogs" they're sooooooo worried about make more than that in commission on one sales horse... If they honestly cared about "Joe Schmoe" we'd have heard this crap long before GM got set down.
                                        Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

                                          Thanks for providing specific $ figures regarding arbitration fees. Additionally, with respect to fees, if the arbitrator rules against Safe Sport, arbitration fees paid up front by the accused will be reimbursed to the accused by Safe Sport.

                                          So again... why does Bonnie say that this is unfair or unjust? I’m not getting it or seeing that. At all. And honestly... the biggest expense for people going through the process is LIKELY going to be the billable hours they will have to pay an attorney if they want help throughout the process.

                                          Call me crazy... but I think Bonnie is well aware of this. She has offered pro bono services to people... so far... and that’s really swell.

                                          But if she was being intellectually honest honest about how unfair the whole thing is and expensive and onerous for the accused to defend themselves, I would think she would talk about the potential attorneys fees that people could be faced with. Not arbitration fees. Which will be reimbursed if a great attorney swoops in and gets the ruling overturned.

                                          Which I would imagine she is aware of as a possibility, given that she had a client just a few months ago who was preparing to go to arbitration on a Safe Sport matter.

                                          maybe the rules about reimbursing fees have changed since last June though. Or maybe they knew that the arbitrator was VERY unlikely to overturn the ban on that specific case, and thus those fees were not likely to be recouped. We don’t know. But I would imagine she has a good inclination if the facts of it all, and potential outcome - she was the attorney. And that makes me think her comments about how onerous and unfair the arbitration fees are just a bit ridiculous.
                                          BN’s comments about how onerous and unfair the arbitration fees are is completely ridiculous and almost certainly disingenuous. She is desperately searching for things to bash SS about. In the past she has said:
                                          1. “At first SS was lifetime banning everyone.”
                                          2. “90% of bans were overturned on appeal.”
                                          3. “An appeal just addresses procedural issues of the SS investigation and does not address the merits of the case.”
                                          OK, I’m paraphrasing since I don’t want to waste time looking stuff up, and if she’s not an idiot she will have attempted to erase these embarrassing false statements.
                                          However, these patently untrue statements designed to bash SS certainly worked for a time in fomenting outrage at SS among her followers.
                                          Complaining about the respondent’s bearing the burden of the cost of arbitration is ridiculous, but it’s not an actual lie like her other complaints. She understands the arbitration fees are pretty modest and necessary to create the right incentives (i.e. don’t insist on arbitration if you know you can’t win), just as she knew that 90% of bans were NOT overturned on appeal when she said that.

                                          Comment

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