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George Morris on the SS list

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    Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post
    The Chron article is extremely interesting. On the whole, it is quite reassuring about how the process is conducted. However, 2 things jumped out at me:

    1. The U.S. Center for SafeSport has its hands full.
    To date the center has received around 4,600 reports—they get around 230 a month—which translates to 4,000 cases (some of the cases get multiple reports). Of those, they’ve resolved 2,800. Of the resolved cases, 800 have resulted in some violation of the SafeSport code.

    Did everyone catch that SafeSport finds the vast majority of cases NOT to be a violation of SafeSport? We don't know what combination this is of false reports, insufficient evidence, and perhaps conduct that is "mean" or tasteless but not a violation of SafeSport.

    9. SafeSport decisions are overwhelmingly upheld in independent arbitration.
    Out of over 800 decisions made by the U.S. Center for SafeSport, less than 1% have been overturned in arbitration.

    I do wish people would speak more clearly. Have these 800 cases completed arbitration (or at least the time for arbitration has expired), or are some still pending? How many SafeSport arbitrations have actually been completed? That information is not provided. Notwithstanding the incomplete information, it seems like a good "report card" on SafeSport's decisionmaking.
    I suggest watching the live stream. All of this is explained as well as why answers to some questions can’t be given.

    Comment


      mvp and other well read posters who weighed in on Lolita...

      Thanks. I found that tangential discussion very interesting. I never read Lolita or Nabokov... I did read Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, and Chekhov however. You all have triggered my curiosity though.

      Great Russian lit is pretty incredible and nuanced when it comes to dark and complicated corners of the human psyche, and stories involving moral issues in society (the Russian Orthodox Church plays a profound role in the thinking of many writers), vs primitive human impulses (sex, suicide, murder and war are all major topics). Years ago I read Anna Karenina, and wrote a college paper on Vronsky, and how his affair with Anna and her later suicide was foreshadowed in the novel by the specific episode when he brutally and relentlessly rode a high strung thoroughbred mare in a steeplechase, and how she broke down as a result. It was an incredibly vivid part of that novel, and the woman and horse lover in me was deeply impacted reading it. I specifically focused on how the character of Vronsky was profoundly damaged, selfish and narcissistic. A man who pursued an affair with a beautiful unhappy woman who was also a mother to a young son... and eventually was destroyed by the whole situation and threw herself in front of a train. I made the case that the way Vronsky rode the mare during the steeplechase was a direct parallel to the way he treated and regarded Anna sexually, and was selfish, narcissistic, and destroyed something beautiful and female in a cruel and tragic way. I can’t remember all the specific details of the novel or my paper... but the prof really liked it.

      Anyway... sorry for an additional tangent for anyone else following these threads who is NOT interested in Russian literature. But I thought those of you who had read Lolita and analyzed it, might find the Anna Karenina reference interesting. After all - we are all horse lovers too.

      Comment


        I love Russian literature.

        And the Russian romantics were often keen to write about the oppression and abuse of women and children.

        Please see the character of Svidrigailov in crime and punishment. Charming, benevolent child molester.
        Last edited by ladyj79; Dec. 12, 2019, 12:54 PM.
        Let me apologize in advance.

        Comment


          Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
          I love Russia. literature.

          And the Russian romantics were often keen to write about the oppression and abuse of women and children.

          Please see the character of Svidrigailov in crime and punishment. Charming, benevolent child molester.
          I’ll admit that Crime & Punishment was a challenging read for me. Dostoevsky was an incredible writer... but I preferred Tolstoy. I loved Anna Karenina. And cried when reading it. Such a beautiful and sad novel.

          But now that you mention C&P...

          you’re RIGHT! I DO now remember that character. Horrid... ithe thing with the little girl was one of multiple parts of that novel that I had a hard time reading. And he committed suicide I think.

          Another thing... Raskolnikov’s dream early on about the horse that was beaten to death. An old mare Awful. And he was a tiny child witnessing it. But it was foreshadowing the old woman.

          I remember that... but it was awful and I hated Radkolnikov, and did not choose that part of the novel for a paper. I has a HARD time with C&P. My husband got me a copy of the Brothers Karamazov a few years ago as a gift. I haven’t read it. He loved it though.

          Comment


            Originally posted by mvp View Post

            Well,.... the PR disaster was perhaps a bit of a self-inflicted wound. Moroney might helped himself if he had issued a stronger statement of reaction to the results of the GM Lifetime ban. I'm not sure it would have made a difference to the crowd of entitled, clueless USEF members who felt sure they had grounds for debating the merits of SafeSport's process. Had those people seen the NGB come down fully on the side of SafeSport just a couple of weeks earlier, however, they might have been forced to consider SafeSport more carefully`or soften their unpopular position. As Moroney's curt statement stood, it left some implied room for unhappy USEF members to contest SafeSport.
            Moroney waited too long and it shows like a coffee stain on a white shirt. There is always the faint blotch, or the fabric weakens from too much bleach. You are correct...he left the door open. It has long been time for new leadership. Now would be that time.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post
              [USER="114463"]Years ago I read Anna Karenina, and wrote a college paper on Vronsky, and how his affair with Anna and her later suicide was foreshadowed in the novel by the specific episode when he brutally and relentlessly rode a high strung thoroughbred mare in a steeplechase, and how she broke down as a result. It was an incredibly vivid part of that novel, and the woman and horse lover in me was deeply impacted reading it. I specifically focused on how the character of Vronsky was profoundly damaged, selfish and narcissistic. A man who pursued an affair with a beautiful unhappy woman who was also a mother to a young son... and eventually was destroyed by the whole situation and threw herself in front of a train. I made the case that the way Vronsky rode the mare during the steeplechase was a direct parallel to the way he treated and regarded Anna sexually, and was selfish, narcissistic, and destroyed something beautiful and female in a cruel and tragic way. I can’t remember all the specific details of the novel or my paper... but the prof really liked it.
              I also saw the parallel between his treatment of the mare and Anna.Having dated a narcissistic man who truly didn't care about the trail of destruction he left in his wake, it was crushing to me as I could relate to her pain.

              Taking this back to the SafeSport discussion, I am familiar with a narcissistic trainer who has made their business all about themself (I realize this is grammatically incorrect but I want to keep gender out of it). While the damage this individual has caused to families isn't as outward and obvious as the GM abuse, the person is absolutely still abusive. Some parents have tolerated it as this individual tends to get results. The snarky jab, the blatant favoritism for child of the person filling said trainer's need for narcissistic supply, and the chilly reception to the child of the parent who stands up for their kid. One has to wonder what the long term impact of some of these smaller tactics will be to these kids. From a one-off incident, it doesn't look like much abuse at all. But it's the sum of all activities where you see the pattern and wonder why parents are tolerating it? A child's mental health is not worth convenience of a location or a blue ribbon. What is really sad is that so many people want to help this individual as there is so much talent there, but you really can't help a narcissist. They seldom recognize they are the problem.

              Comment


                Footnote(1) Tolstoy wrote horses extraordinarily well for those who havent read him. In addition to the race in Anna K., the hunt scene in War and Peace is quite thrilling if anyone needs encouragement to attempt that heavy tome over the dark winter months. But so much depends on the translator .... I recommend the Pevear and Volokhonsky translations. Then you could read the scenes again as others have translated it. This passes for fun for nerds. Interestingly, Nabokov wrote Lolita in English, so there are interesting thoughts on how he perceives the language he uses. Anyway, This little interruption is over.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                  I love Russian literature.

                  And the Russian romantics were often keen to write about the oppression and abuse of women and children.

                  Please see the character of Svidrigailov in crime and punishment. Charming, benevolent child molester.

                  While Nobokov is Russian, I believe he was living in the US when Lolita was published in the fifties.

                  I believe the publication of the book was quite scandalous, perhaps because the author treated Humbert as human and somewhat relatable, even likable, as opposed to a stick figure, one dimensional evil creep.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post


                    While Nobokov is Russian, I believe he was living in the US when Lolita was published in the fifties.

                    I believe the publication of the book was quite scandalous, perhaps because the author treated Humbert as human and somewhat relatable, even likable, as opposed to a stick figure, one dimensional evil creep.
                    indeed Nobokov became a US citizen.

                    And Dostoevsky made his child molester a charming benevolent figure. But no less a monster.

                    Tremendous writers, those Russians.
                    Let me apologize in advance.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post
                      mvp
                      Great Russian lit is pretty incredible and nuanced when it comes to dark and complicated corners of the human psyche, and stories involving moral issues in society (the Russian Orthodox Church plays a profound role in the thinking of many writers), vs primitive human impulses (sex, suicide, murder and war are all major topics). Years ago I read Anna Karenina, and wrote a college paper on Vronsky, and how his affair with Anna and her later suicide was foreshadowed in the novel by the specific episode when he brutally and relentlessly rode a high strung thoroughbred mare in a steeplechase, and how she broke down as a result. It was an incredibly vivid part of that novel, and the woman and horse lover in me was deeply impacted reading it. I specifically focused on how the character of Vronsky was profoundly damaged, selfish and narcissistic. A man who pursued an affair with a beautiful unhappy woman who was also a mother to a young son... and eventually was destroyed by the whole situation and threw herself in front of a train. I made the case that the way Vronsky rode the mare during the steeplechase was a direct parallel to the way he treated and regarded Anna sexually, and was selfish, narcissistic, and destroyed something beautiful and female in a cruel and tragic way. I can’t remember all the specific details of the novel or my paper... but the prof really liked it.
                      And here's the point that comes from your paper (and prof loving it) as well as giving credit to Russian authors; and the point comes from a different branch of great literature:

                      Your insight comes from your now-specialized knowledge as a horsewoman (which I presume your prof did not have); perhaps it came, too, from your perspective and lived experience as a woman. Jane Austen's novels were taught to me as early "feminist literature"-- that is to say that the issues and points of view were all about women rather than the "everyman reader" which typically assumes one is male. So while I think those deliciously complicated, dark and universally human themes explored in Russian literature *ought* to be appreciated as human (read: gender-neutral and of interest to all of us), I think most people, most of the time don't include women in the Everyreader category. So give as much credit to the modern reader who has the unusual, shared knowledge of horses with the 19th-century author, as to that undeniably great author.

                      And this matters for the purposes of this discussion because, if I may yell: IF MORE PEOPLE, MORE OFTEN COULD TAKE ON THE EXPERIENCE OR PERSPECTIVE OF A VICTIM OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT OR ASSAULT, WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DEBATE.

                      And similar has happened in other branches of literature, history-writing, policy-making even car design-- when things are assumed to fit the, say, 5'10" middle class white male (American, British or European, please)-- we build in injustice to the way we order the world. This is not my idea, of course, but it's worth repeating.

                      So everyone, on all sides of the SafeSport debate should know better than to inflate their experience to that of some shared, universal human experience. Thank God not everyone has been sexually abused; but I do think it's a major moral falling to not see why one should make an effort to take that experience or the point of view it generates seriously.
                      The armchair saddler
                      Politically Pro-Cat

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by fair judy View Post

                        Moroney waited too long and it shows like a coffee stain on a white shirt. There is always the faint blotch, or the fabric weakens from too much bleach. You are correct...he left the door open. It has long been time for new leadership. Now would be that time.
                        Nah... this is not an impeachable offense (pun intended since we all collectively seem to be in the business of wanting to know for ourselves if the crime was "bad enough" by our standards). Rather, I think it makes the USEF and the horsey set at large look like a set of rich buffoons when we don't leap to defend the value of SafeSport. Remember that the USEF is just one among the NGBs subject to SafeSport. Those all have to produce public responses to that agency and its sometimes embarrassing findings. To the public, our sport is already rather peripheral and now we just suck at assenting to the venerable mission of protecting children.
                        The armchair saddler
                        Politically Pro-Cat

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by mvp View Post

                          Well,.... the PR disaster was perhaps a bit of a self-inflicted wound. Moroney might helped himself if he had issued a stronger statement of reaction to the results of the GM Lifetime ban. I'm not sure it would have made a difference to the crowd of entitled, clueless USEF members who felt sure they had grounds for debating the merits of SafeSport's process. Had those people seen the NGB come down fully on the side of SafeSport just a couple of weeks earlier, however, they might have been forced to consider SafeSport more carefully`or soften their unpopular position. As Moroney's curt statement stood, it left some implied room for unhappy USEF members to contest SafeSport.
                          I think his curt statement was the right thing to do. The investigation and ban are 100% SS, and the role of USEF is simply to accept and enforce the ban.

                          By gratuitously embellishing on how much USEF agrees with SS on the GM issue, or whatever you want them to say to burnish their moral creds, they would just direct the Hobsteter, Navin, Carney outrage onto themselves.

                          USEF was relieved of the responsibility of weeding out abusers and harassers (after demonstrating that they failed utterly to stand up to power pedophiles like JW and GM).

                          It’s better to make it clear in the minds of the ISWG types that SS is the new sheriff in town, not USEF.

                          By successfully taking on GM, and having the ban upheld on appeal, and generally doing its job, SS is building its own credibility.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

                            indeed Nobokov became a US citizen.

                            And Dostoevsky made his child molester a charming benevolent figure. But no less a monster.

                            Tremendous writers, those Russians.
                            I have always admired Russian
                            1) writers of literature
                            2) chess players
                            3) statisticians, and
                            4) ballet dancers


                            Comment


                              Originally posted by LE View Post

                              Children need to also learn lessons. I think a month long suspension (Sorry, ban was the wrong term) from their sport in question would be quite a lesson for them. Fake ID use is a serious crime. Kids will be kids? Yeah, let them learn that if you break the rules, there are punishments, which include losing the right to your sport if you are caught doing this within a competition outing.
                              But how is that scenario even relevant to Safe Sport? Unless the minor is so young he / she is below the age of consent? If they engage in a consensual relationship, and if the trainer is not in a position of authority over the minor (ie his/ her trainer, employer, judge, etc) then nobody has grounds to make a complaint to SS in the first place. DC is simply stirring the pot and making up scenarios that don’t apply, in order to stoke fear.

                              Comment


                                Ok can we please stop with saying people who haven't read "Lolita" are ignorant, illiterate etc? I have never read it nor seen the movie, and I do not believe that makes me somehow less of a person. It's just never been something I've read or desire to read! I consider myself to be well-read and just graduated from a very tough nursing program so I am definitely not an idiot!

                                Tongue firmly in cheek, but kind of at the comments that "ermagerd yer derdernt rerd ther berk yerd dermb!

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Capall View Post
                                  Ok can we please stop with saying people who haven't read "Lolita" are ignorant, illiterate etc? I have never read it nor seen the movie, and I do not believe that makes me somehow less of a person. It's just never been something I've read or desire to read! I consider myself to be well-read and just graduated from a very tough nursing program so I am definitely not an idiot!

                                  Tongue firmly in cheek, but kind of at the comments that "ermagerd yer derdernt rerd ther berk yerd dermb!
                                  It certainly doesn't make you dumb, illiterate, etc. But it is definitely cannon and it would surprise me to learn that someone who received a liberal arts education in the US had absolutely NO familiarity with it (as in had never heard of it and had no general sense of what the story was about).
                                  ~Veronica
                                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by fair judy View Post

                                    Moroney waited too long and it shows like a coffee stain on a white shirt. There is always the faint blotch, or the fabric weakens from too much bleach. You are correct...he left the door open. It has long been time for new leadership. Now would be that time.
                                    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, nothing from Mr. Murray Kessler, esteemed president of USEF. Guess he was too busy with his high profile wedding and getting pictures of his new house published to deal with something as unsavory as molested kids.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by vxf111 View Post

                                      It certainly doesn't make you dumb, illiterate, etc. But it is definitely cannon and it would surprise me to learn that someone who received a liberal arts education in the US had absolutely NO familiarity with it (as in had never heard of it and had no general sense of what the story was about).
                                      I have a BA in Anthropology and no, I never read it. Never needed to, never wanted to. Have heard of the gist of it but never read it. I still have no desire to read it. Basically all I've heard about it was a younger girl and older guy and some sort of seduction going on. So, I guess you can be surprised that not every college educated person in the US has read every book that is considered "canon."

                                      I HAVE read 100 years of solitude and would like those hours of my life back...

                                      Comment


                                        Forget Lolita. I would like people who drag up the Constitution to actually know what the heck it means.

                                        *****
                                        You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Capall View Post

                                          I have a BA in Anthropology and no, I never read it. Never needed to, never wanted to. Have heard of the gist of it but never read it. I still have no desire to read it. Basically all I've heard about it was a younger girl and older guy and some sort of seduction going on. So, I guess you can be surprised that not every college educated person in the US has read every book that is considered "canon."

                                          I HAVE read 100 years of solitude and would like those hours of my life back...
                                          I would also like the hours I spent reading 100 years... back. Unfortunately, had to finish it bc it was for a class. Fortunately The Corrections wasn’t for a class.
                                          The Evil Chem Prof

                                          Comment

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