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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post

    This perception that men can’t control themselves and it’s up to the females to prevent wrongdoing begins in childhood. We literally teach boys that we don’t expect them to be able to restrain themselves. How many school dress codes forbid girls wearing tank tops with an explanation from the school that their bare shoulders or (God forbid) cleavage are “distracting” for the boys? It’s absurd, but all too real.
    And this is why we need change. I see things beginning to change, and I hope that the momentum keeps up. No longer are females sitting down and taking it. Nope, we are standing up for ourselves and not allowing these excuses to keep cropping up. It may take awhile, but a cultural shift is on its way.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Satin Filly View Post

      I’m having a hard time seeing the grey area here. The crime committed is the same, the circumstances shouldn’t matter. Either you’re into child pornography or you aren’t. As an organization put forth to protect children from child predators, SS is either okay with that history or they aren’t. That’s the way it should be, IMO. Why blur the lines?
      EXACTLY!! It's like people are seeing JS as a victim only, when he in fact, is also a predator. Why are people missing this? And is Safe Sport and the USEF honestly thinking he won't do anything??? Are they that stupid??? And let me tell you, they better have good lawyers because if they get even 1 claim of sexual abuse, they will be sued for all the money they have, because the reinstated a known sex offender. This , to me, makes both organizations a JOKE!

      Comment


      • LE you apparently missed this post (only 5 back, bold and underlining mine) re: removal of JS from Safe Sport banned list. It was not Safe Sports's choice to do so. They stood by their decision, but JS won his appeal and because Safe Sport does play by the rules, they had to drop him.
        Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post

        Ok, I'm happy to explain. GM and RG both had multiple actual sexual relationships with underage persons, which in both instances resulted in lifetime bans. These bans were upheld by independent arbitrators outside of the Safe Sport organization who provide outside oversight to ensure fairness in the Safe Sport process.

        JS was not accused by anyone of any kind of abuse or molestation. Instead, he was arrested and convicted of possession of child pornography that was discovered when he took his computer in to be repaired. He was placed on a sex offenders registry for that charge, and after serving his time on that registry he was removed. According to Safe Sport, if you are on a sex offender registry of any kind you are "ineligible to participate." Safe Sport banned JS, but then his case went to an independent arbitrator. In the case of JS, the independent arbitrator--a person unrelated to the Safe Sport organization--overturned the JS ban in a final, binding decision. Let me repeat: It was NOT the decision of Safe Sport to overturn the JS ban. Instead, an independent arbitrator reviewed the case, held hearings, and made the final decision to overturn the ban.

        Comment


        • My head is spinning. I have a few more questions that don't add up:
          About George Morris: It's stated he bragged about his relationships in his autobiography. Now, if that's true, how did he get around this legally? Surely he consulted a lawyer before publishing his book---things like that would have been checked out for legalities no? My next question is, did GM continue this behavior? From what I'm reading, it seems that he did this in the 60s70s era. What I am getting at is, pedophiles don't stop with an era. If they are attracted to kids, they continue. So, did he? Did he continue to have relationships with under aged boys up until now? This is where I am still very confused about his ban. We have 1 person named ( on the sex offender registry), who looks to have benefited from testifying against GM. Now, I know there was another accuser who maintained their annonimity, but was it around the same time period? It would have had to have been or criminal charges would have been pressed.
          So, does this sound right? Pedophiles don't stop....so, this is confusing to me. I mean, if you read about Jimmy Williams, it sounded like he continued his behavior up until he passed. To pin this on Morris----something still doesn't sit right with me.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
            I keep saying the people who are all about due process and facing your accuser better be careful what they wish for. They are wishing for criminal proceedings where people found guilty go to jail.
            It is almost like they are bull baiting. I'm not an attorney, but a legal case against GM seems like relatively low hanging fruit. Not saying it would be easy per se as far as getting victims to come forward, but for someone with nothing to lose in the horse industry and that might want to have a little legal intellectual blood sport (exploding heads at Athletes for Equity) what more could you ask for:
            GMs autobiography
            No denial from GM that sex with minors occurred
            violations in a state with no SOL

            Since I'm not an attorney, there is probably something I've overlooked that makes this not such low hanging fruit or someone would have claimed it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ubu&Goober View Post
              LE you apparently missed this post (only 5 back, bold and underlining mine) re: removal of JS from Safe Sport banned list. It was not Safe Sports's choice to do so. They stood by their decision, but JS won his appeal and because Safe Sport does play by the rules, they had to drop him.
              Well that's encouraging. :/ Why on earth is there a separate arbitration??? And the fact the USEF reinstated him long before this to judge kids, while he is on a sex offender list is beyond me. The fact there is no allegations of abuse does not mean he has not done anything. This is a major law suit waiting to happen. But thank you for clarifying that.

              Comment


              • What does ISWB stand for?

                Comment


                • LE total speculation, but based on the number of people GM claims to have had sex with in his autobiography it seems likely there are more recent occurrences and probably outside of the horse world maybe - because as you state pedophiles don't stop with an era. Though it is also possible that any more recent occurrences happened in locations with SOLs that have run out.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by LE View Post

                    Well that's encouraging. :/ Why on earth is there a separate arbitration??? And the fact the USEF reinstated him long before this to judge kids, while he is on a sex offender list is beyond me. The fact there is no allegations of abuse does not mean he has not done anything. This is a major law suit waiting to happen. But thank you for clarifying that.
                    Presumably there is a separate arbitration so Safe Sport does not get to act like a dictator and those on the list have some recourse. GM also appealed and went to independent arbitration, but he lost his appeal.

                    Don't know about ISWB. If that is a typo and you meant ISWG, it means "I stand with George"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

                      But you aren't an arbitrator, and they disagreed with you.

                      I appreciate that you don't agree. If you would like to be involved in the decision process, you can always apply for the job.
                      Now, now, you don't need to be an imperious smart-ass. After all, any credible organization should be willing to have its policies and criteria scrutinized, as Satin Filly has done. Again, she was asking about policies not which person is in a position to hand down decisions.
                      The armchair saddler
                      Politically Pro-Cat

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mvp View Post

                        Now, now, you don't need to be an imperious smart-ass. After all, any credible organization should be willing to have its policies and criteria scrutinized, as Satin Filly has done. Again, she was asking about policies not which person is in a position to hand down decisions.
                        MVP, there was nothing imperious or "smart ass", in my comment, it was a statement of facts in direct opposition to your name calling.
                        Let me apologize in advance.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

                          MVP, there was nothing imperious or "smart ass", in my comment, it was a statement of facts in direct opposition to your name calling.
                          Telling Satin Filly that if she didn't like SafeSport's ruling she could become an arbitrator was a mean-spirited response insofar as you know that's neither a likely option nor an efficient solution to asking what SafeSport's criteria are.
                          The armchair saddler
                          Politically Pro-Cat

                          Comment


                          • I always think it's hilarious that people scream about SS being unfair and just banning whoever on hearsay, but then they also scream about SS using independent arbitrators to make sure everything is fair. It's like you can't win.

                            I also don't get the hooplah about JS. He was put on the sex registry a long time ago for some pictures found on his hard drive. He served his term, has been on good behavior, has gone to therapy apparently and actively tried to be better. He was removed from the registries, minus FL because its I think permanent. SS has to ban anyone that is on a registry. JS was on the FL registry so he was banned. He appealed, SS sent it to am independent arbitrator to make sure it was fair. They decided he is no longer a threat. He was removed from the list. If you don't want to take your kid to him, then don't. No one says you have to. And I honestly don't really see him as a threat anyways. As opposed to GM, who is pretty much universally known to be a fairly awful person in a lot of ways.

                            I did get the impression in the COTH article that the interviewer thought it was all a bit ridiculous.

                            Comment


                            • Nothing in the latest letter to Safe Sport to suggest that "Athletes for Equity in Sport" has any interest in supporting victims of abuse.


                              December 9, 2019
                              US Center for Safesport
                              1385 S Colorado Blvd Ste A-706
                              Denver, CO, 80222
                              ... To whom it may concern:
                              My name is Diane Carney. I am the President of Athletes for Equity in Sport Inc., a new non-profit organization advocating on behalf of athletes, coaches, trainers and others impacted by your organization.
                              Please provide me with the following information for statistical purposes:
                              1. How does Safesport define and handle situations when a “victim” was in a bar or pub with a fake identification and voluntarily has sexual relations with a 25 year old coach he or she met in that bar or drinking establishment?
                              2. What evidence is collected at the time of the alleged assault to verify that the accused and not another sexual partner was the perpetrator?
                              3. What is your definition of “Character Witness”?
                              4. What is the financial recourse in case an individual is determined to be wrongfully accused?
                              5. How does Safesport avoid false reporting in Contentious Custody Cases?
                              I am asking for this as a member of USEF. I am required to take training by that organization. I am not requesting victim identifying information, only information for statistical purposes. I look forward to receiving this information. Your prompt attention to my request will be appreciated. Thank you.
                              Sincerely,
                              Diane Carney
                              President, Athletes for Equity in Sport

                              Last edited by Rides Again; Dec. 10, 2019, 09:26 AM. Reason: formatting

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post

                                Ok, I'm happy to explain. GM and RG both had multiple actual sexual relationships with underage persons, which in both instances resulted in lifetime bans. These bans were upheld by independent arbitrators outside of the Safe Sport organization who provide outside oversight to ensure fairness in the Safe Sport process.

                                JS was not accused by anyone of any kind of abuse or molestation. Instead, he was arrested and convicted of possession of child pornography that was discovered when he took his computer in to be repaired. He was placed on a sex offenders registry for that charge, and after serving his time on that registry he was removed. According to Safe Sport, if you are on a sex offender registry of any kind you are "ineligible to participate." Safe Sport banned JS, but then his case went to an independent arbitrator. In the case of JS, the independent arbitrator--a person unrelated to the Safe Sport organization--overturned the JS ban in a final, binding decision. Let me repeat: It was NOT the decision of Safe Sport to overturn the JS ban. Instead, an independent arbitrator reviewed the case, held hearings, and made the final decision to overturn the ban.
                                Thank you for this explanation.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by LE View Post
                                  What does ISWB stand for?
                                  Did you mean ISWG? That stands for "I Stand With George." Meaning, "I stand with a serial child molester."
                                  Last edited by SillyHorse; Dec. 10, 2019, 01:27 PM. Reason: Changed "pedophile" to "child molester."
                                  "She is not fragile like a flower. She is fragile like a bomb."

                                  Comment


                                  • A quote from Vanessa Brown’s fb solicitation of funds for athletes for Equity Fund.
                                    “ My support and your support can effect positive change and a system that can truly work to protect our athletes “

                                    Seems they don’t care about victims, at all

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post
                                      I always think it's hilarious that people scream about SS being unfair and just banning whoever on hearsay, but then they also scream about SS using independent arbitrators to make sure everything is fair. It's like you can't win.

                                      I also don't get the hooplah about JS. He was put on the sex registry a long time ago for some pictures found on his hard drive. He served his term, has been on good behavior, has gone to therapy apparently and actively tried to be better. He was removed from the registries, minus FL because its I think permanent. SS has to ban anyone that is on a registry. JS was on the FL registry so he was banned. He appealed, SS sent it to am independent arbitrator to make sure it was fair. They decided he is no longer a threat. He was removed from the list. If you don't want to take your kid to him, then don't. No one says you have to. And I honestly don't really see him as a threat anyways. As opposed to GM, who is pretty much universally known to be a fairly awful person in a lot of ways.

                                      I did get the impression in the COTH article that the interviewer thought it was all a bit ridiculous.
                                      Well said. I find it amusing that the most recent posters to jump into this thread are STILL trying g to sort out if it was only a few victims from the 70’s and 70’s with GM, and have AGAIN repeated the false notion that JS got some sort of a “deal” from Safe Sport, and have AGAIN failed to lock onto the fact that Safe Sport banned JS... and an INDEPENDENT ARBITRATOR overturned the ban upon appeal.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by LE View Post

                                        Well that's encouraging. :/ Why on earth is there a separate arbitration??? And the fact the USEF reinstated him long before this to judge kids, while he is on a sex offender list is beyond me. The fact there is no allegations of abuse does not mean he has not done anything. This is a major law suit waiting to happen. But thank you for clarifying that.
                                        Are u serious?!?!

                                        USEF getting sued over Soresi?!?!

                                        More like USEF getting sued BY one of a NUMBER of men who were once young boys and were molested and assaulted by GM while USEF was pretending they hadn’t heard the same rumors that EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER had heard about GM for years and YEARS.

                                        Get.a.clue.

                                        Comment


                                        • Satin Filly I just want to add that although I am no friend of JS, if you read through the Sanctions section of the Safe Sport code, there is a list of considerations that are to be applied when determining the appropriate penalty. Those considerations include (paraphrased): 1) prior history, 2) pattern of behavior, 3) ages of individuals involved, 4) whether or not the person is an ongoing threat to the safety of others 5) whether or not the respondent voluntarily disclosed the offense and cooperated with the Center's process 6) impact of the incident on the sporting community, 7) given the facts whether it is appropriate for the person to continue to participate, and 8) other mitigating and aggravating circumstances.

                                          I think if you go down this list I think that it helps make it more clear as to why an arbitrator might have chosen to overturn JS' ban. Because details of each case are private, there may be other factors that are not apparent that worked in JS' favor. As far as seeing a connection between the GM ban being upheld at the same time the JS ban was overturned--the final independent arbitration proceedings for the two cases were entirely separate. Is it possible that the independent arbitrator in the JS case considered JS' cooperation in the case against GM to be a mitigating factor? Possibly so, but there were certainly a number of other unrelated mitigating factors that we do know about.

                                          LE, I understand you have questions about the GM case. I think it's really tough for people to swallow that they don't get to know the facts of the case as presented in the hearings so they can make up their own mind. However, there are a lot of good reasons the information from the hearings must remain private. The mandate of Safe Sport is to protect people involved in amateur athletics from sexual and other forms of abuse. Publicizing hearings would in all likelihood turn the Safe Sport process into an extremely damaging smear campaign against accused parties. Putting information out there would also make victims and witnesses easy to identify and set them up for harassment and retaliation. As we have seen from both the RG and GM cases, victims and witnesses are not exactly treated well in the equestrian community. In the end, all Safe Sport has the power to do is to determine fitness to participate in private sporting associations and to remove people who are unfit. It does not exist to inform the community of the sordid details of each case.

                                          FWIW, there are at least three names out there of people who were abused by GM. But because the Safe Sport proceedings are private, I think it is foolish to assume that there could not also be more recent victims that came forward. IMO, one single case of child molestation should be enough for us to not want that perpetrator in our sport, but I understand that others might feel differently.

                                          I think that when looking at Safe Sport cases from the outside it's important to remember that an accused person can say whatever they want to the public about what they were accused of and even if it is a complete misrepresentation of the facts, Safe Sport is not going to make public statements correcting them for the reasons listed above.

                                          Comment

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