Sport Horse Spotlight

Sandro Hit Standa Eylers

Real Estate Spotlight

Driveway

Sale Spotlight

COTH_without Subscribe
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

George Morris on the SS list

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I kinda thought it was obvious that HLMom and HorseGirlsMom were the same person, since HLMom was responding as if she was HorseGirlMom to posts that called HGM out. Never saw her try to pretend they were two different people. I figured it was just a case of someone forgetting which account they had been logged into.

    Just so people don't think that HLMom was actually trying to pretend she was two different people. Whether you agree with what she says or not, I don't think it's fair to be viewing her as a crazy person pretending to be two people when she wasn't.

    And YankeeDuchess definitely isn't the same person, you can tell by writing style.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post
      I kinda thought it was obvious that HLMom and HorseGirlsMom were the same person, since HLMom was responding as if she was HorseGirlMom to posts that called HGM out. Never saw her try to pretend they were two different people. I figured it was just a case of someone forgetting which account they had been logged into.

      Just so people don't think that HLMom was actually trying to pretend she was two different people. Whether you agree with what she says or not, I don't think it's fair to be viewing her as a crazy person pretending to be two people when she wasn't.

      And YankeeDuchess definitely isn't the same person, you can tell by writing style.
      Not only is it unfair; it is all too reminiscent of the childish level of discourse displayed in ISWG, and it is no less disgusting here. That HLM & HGM were one & the same was readily apparent at least 30 pages ago. So apparent that it wasn't even noteworthy, unless of course that is your sole case for discrediting her.

      Disappointed to see some generally respected posters cheapen a largely thoughtful & informative discussion that is clearly intended to identify instances where SS may need some shoring up.
      EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

      Comment


      • I've been thinking about the issue of written witness statements, which several people have raised.

        There is no question that witness statements, signed under oath, can be incredibly valuable in a case. They memorialize a witness's recollections, they form a basis for cross-examination, etc.

        However, I think if SafeSport wants to win at arbitration, they need to start thinking like trial lawyers--not like bureaucrats.

        Let's say the SS investigator shows up at arbitration with a sheaf of paperwork s/he says are statements obtained from witnesses. Ok fine, the arbitrator spends a few minutes reading them. Meanwhile, on the other side, you have the accused, who has come in person to meet the arbitrator, tell his side of the story, answer the arbitrator's tough questions . . . and he has half a dozen personable supporting witnesses who tell the arbitrator what a great person the accused is, how he has always been appropriate with students based on their observation, etc. etc. Maybe these supporting witnesses have some facts that appear to cast doubt on the reporting party's story, and she isn't there to counter them.

        Keep in mind that our entire legal system has a tremendous bias in favor of live witness testimony so the witness's credibility can be evaluated and the witness can be cross-examined. In fact, signed statements are never allowed in lieu of testimony at trial, even if they are signed under oath.

        Where do you think the arbitrator, a former judge, is going to find the preponderance?

        You can protest that written statements are more efficient, it's a hardship for the reporting party to attend etc. I understand those points. I am just stating the reality of how this will all go down in front of a judge. If SS wants to win, they need to get witnesses there--or at least have the witnesses testify by live video link.
        Last edited by Horsegirl's Mom; Aug. 27, 2019, 11:09 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Keep it Simple View Post

          Eventhough the code indicates organizational practices or procedures will not be addressed, I would expect some lawyers do address it in their attempt to defend their clients.

          The code also says the Reporting Party's name will not be disclosed. Kathy Serio states that the infomation regarding the case cannot not shared (even to a wife); however, this is not true. Any attorney will tell you they can't defend their client and provide evidence and witnesses if they don't know the other party. So, while it appears to be a violation of the code, names are absolutely disclosed. The Responding Party's witnesses know who reported.
          Keep in mind that there can be third part reporters. I could report to SafeSport that I had evidence of sexual misconduct by BNT Mr XYZ with 14 year old Emma ABC but as the reporter I could remain anonymous. The fact that reporters may be anonymous does not mean that claimants, or alleged victims, are anonymous.
          Last edited by YankeeDuchess; Aug. 27, 2019, 12:19 PM.

          Comment


          • If the witnesses on both sides do attend the arbitration hearings, I’m thinking since it’s not a trial, that the witnesses can be questioned by the arbitrator in separate rooms, or at different times, or on different days without having to see each other. Would that be correct?

            Comment


            • Horsegirl's Mom It is not only about the hardship for the reporting party to attend. It’s about going through it all over again. There was a Facebook post (it has since been deleted) made about GM threatening their family during an in person interview.

              Safe Sport is specifically designed to operate like an HR department. I still do not understand this desire to make it like the criminal courts.

              People routinely say Safe Sport needs to be shored up, made better, etc. However the only specific thing anyone has pointed out is lack of signed witnesses statements can lead to an overturn on the appeal. Why, if signed witness statements will suffice, are people arguing for live testimony?

              Comment


              • I feel like this thread has gone on so long that we now have new people showing up and rehashing all the same stuff that was discussed ad nauseam earlier. Which is, I guess, inevitable when you have long-running discussions.

                So we're over 2900 posts in and I still haven't heard any solid suggestions for "improving" SafeSport beyond the oft repeated demands to adopt the procedures of the criminal/civil justice system, which is a useless suggestion because SafeSport was explicitly created to operate outside the bounds of that system.

                And now I've repeated myself for the umpteenth time, so I guess I need to be done with this discussion.
                "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                that's even remotely true."

                Homer Simpson

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                  Keep in mind that our entire legal system has a tremendous bias in favor of live witness testimony so the witness's credibility can be evaluated and the witness can be cross-examined.
                  And this is one of the chief reasons why criminal sexual misconduct cases fail to be prosecuted.

                  The victim experiences an incredibly traumatic, personal event and lawyers want them to rehash their experiences or attempt to discredit their character.

                  It doesn't matter if the the underage victim was sexually active, impaired, or even "consensual." A minor cannot give consent, especially in situations where there is a power imbalance.

                  People keep forgetting that SafeSport isn't convicting anyone of crimes. They are just "firing" people who do not abide by the organization's standards.
                  Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NoSuchPerson View Post
                    I feel like this thread has gone on so long that we now have new people showing up and rehashing all the same stuff that was discussed ad nauseam earlier. Which is, I guess, inevitable when you have long-running discussions.

                    So we're over 2900 posts in and I still haven't heard any solid suggestions for "improving" SafeSport beyond the oft repeated demands to adopt the procedures of the criminal/civil justice system, which is a useless suggestion because SafeSport was explicitly created to operate outside the bounds of that system.

                    And now I've repeated myself for the umpteenth time, so I guess I need to be done with this discussion.
                    Also wondering if there are any new developments with the actual case? Seem to be 5 new pages of squabble each time one returns

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by dags View Post
                      ..
                      Disappointed to see some generally respected posters cheapen a largely thoughtful & informative discussion that is clearly intended to identify instances where SS may need some shoring up.
                      Yes, the whole thread has been such an informative and inspiring read but that sort of thing has brought it down to a really dull and unpleasant level more than once. I can see now why some otherwise thoughtful, interesting people either leave or go to pms, as someone mentioned earlier.

                      It's unfortunate (for me personally) but I think I'm finally done with it. However to each their own posting style. It's a free country.
                      One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                      William Shakespeare

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Alterforme View Post
                        If the witnesses on both sides do attend the arbitration hearings, I’m thinking since it’s not a trial, that the witnesses can be questioned by the arbitrator in separate rooms, or at different times, or on different days without having to see each other. Would that be correct?
                        The arbitration is done by video conferencing. The Reporting Party/victim can see the entire arbitration if they so choose. The other witnesses can only see the other participants when it is their turn to talk. One side can get together at a single location if they desire, but it is not necessary. Arbitrators are all over the country, SafeSport is in Colorado. No travel expense for witnesses or lawyer unless one side chooses to do it that way.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post

                          Keep in mind that there can be third part reporters. I could report to SafeSport that I had evidence of sexual misconduct by BNT Mr XYZ with 24 year old Emma ABC but as the reporter I could remain anonymous. The fact that reporters may be synonymous does not mean that claimants, or alleged victims, are anonymous.
                          You are not the Reporting Party if you are anonymous. They do not use anonymous reports in arbitration. SafeSport has told people they can file a report anonymously, but without a name or someone willing to testify, the evidence is not strong.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                            I do want to interject here that, although SS does not seek restitution or take any further action once a penalty has been decided, I would expect that in future, when the statute of limitations has not been exceeded, or has been waived by the state in which the actions took place, the victims would pursue civil or criminal cases. i also would imagine that a ban by SS would be admissible in evidence. (but I'm not a lawyer).
                            The Statute of Limitations has not expired in several cases. Criminal action can be taken in some cases, and civil in others. Not every victim is interested in pursuing civil charges. It is not always about seeking restitution or wanting to punish you abuser. Some victims are happy knowing they have done something to regain control of their own life, inform the equestrian community of patterns of abuse and hopefully protect others. That is enough. However, I agree, it would be beneficial if they would use the SafeSport ruling as supporting evidence.

                            I can say the SS process through arbitration is extremely difficult and emotionally exhausting. I read a few studies that indicated each time a victim tells their story it gets deeper ingrained in their brain. I never thought about my abuse in my late-teens through early 50s. It would affect me when I saw my abuser or any family members, but I was able to bury my feelings. It would affect my personal relationships, but not my daily life until I saw a news story about sexual abuse, then it would all resurface. Testifying was one of the hardest things I have ever done. And now I think about every time I read these threads or see something on FB. Taking my abuser to court will not change this. Money will not change this. Hopefully time will reduce the effect it has on me, but I don't think legal action would be beneficial.
                            Last edited by Keep it Simple; Aug. 27, 2019, 12:26 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                              And this is one of the chief reasons why criminal sexual misconduct cases fail to be prosecuted.

                              The victim experiences an incredibly traumatic, personal event and lawyers want them to rehash their experiences or attempt to discredit their character.

                              It doesn't matter if the the underage victim was sexually active, impaired, or even "consensual." A minor cannot give consent, especially in situations where there is a power imbalance.

                              People keep forgetting that SafeSport isn't convicting anyone of crimes. They are just "firing" people who do not abide by the organization's standards.
                              Excellent post. It's important to separate SS from the process of a criminal trial. They are NOT the same at all.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post

                                I said I understood the appeal was for procedural grounds. Happy to be proven wrong there. Doesn’t change the fact that following a thorough investigation, SS issues a verdict and may impose a sanction. Using GM as an example, he was found guilty, for want if a better word. I will now consider him guilty unless the appeal results give me reason it to. In court cases do you believe a defendant who was found guilty should still be considered innocent until after an appeal?
                                While the SafeSport process is a grievance procedure somewhat analogous to a criminal court, it is not a criminal court and they use different terms for various things.

                                For example, after their 2 year investigation of GM, SafeSport did not announce that GM was “guilty”. That is a word reserved for the criminal courts.

                                Instead, their statement is that, without mentioning the length of the investigation or number of complainants, SafeSport has “determined the allegations to be credible” and issued a lifetime ban. They also specify what aspect of the code was at issue, usually “sexual misconduct with a minor”.

                                This is mostly just terminology. Instead of saying, on the basis of an investigation, we have determined he is “guilty”, they announced that “they have found there to be credible allegations of sexual misconduct with a minor”.

                                Some people have misconstrued this language, along with the language permitting anonymous reports as saying that someone can call up SafeSport and anonymously say “BNT XYZ had sex with me. It was 40 years ago but I was only 13 at the time.” In their fantasy horror story, they imagine that SafeSport decides based on whim whether it, SafeSport, considers the allegation “credible” or not and then issues a ban.

                                We know that there is a very extensive investigation by SafeSport before they announce they have determined that there are credible allegations of misconduct. However, there is no independent arbitrator (analogous to the judge) prior to the appeal. Like the police and DA, SafeSport will want to investigate all sides of the case, including interviewing the respondent and his witnesses to determine whether they have enough evidence to meet their burden of proof IF it comes to arbitration. However, it is not clear to me that the investigation part is the part of the process that is intended to be a fair balanced assessment of the evidence.

                                The respondent’s primary venue for stating his case, as I understand it, is when it goes before an independent arbitrator, which happens during the appeal. As a private person, I am very comfortable considering GM “guilty”. However, note that SafeSport does not use the word “guilty”. They just say “credible allegation of misconduct.”

                                I begrudgingly admit that the ISWG people have a tiny bit of a legitimate complaint in that the ban is imposed before the appeal has been completed, because I have some sympathy with the notion that he has not yet had the opportunity to defend himself in front of the independent arbitrator.

                                Of course criminal defendants can be jailed while awaiting trial, and SafeSport does not incarcerate people, so I also see the case for the ban being in place while the appeal proceeds. However, if delaying the ban until after the appeal succeeded in shutting up the ISWG people, I could get behind that. (But if course it would not shut them up.)

                                I was glad you brought up the claim that the appeal focused on procedural issues and not the merits of the case, because I also had read that, and thought, “well, that’s screwy”, and later learned that the opposite was true. I vaguely remember the source being Bonnie Navin. She has stated as fact some other claims that, if true, make SafeSport look like a joke, but seem very unlikely to be true. Do you remember where you read that?

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post
                                  Horsegirl's Mom It is not only about the hardship for the reporting party to attend. It’s about going through it all over again. There was a Facebook post (it has since been deleted) made about GM threatening their family during an in person interview.

                                  Safe Sport is specifically designed to operate like an HR department. I still do not understand this desire to make it like the criminal courts.

                                  People routinely say Safe Sport needs to be shored up, made better, etc. However the only specific thing anyone has pointed out is lack of signed witnesses statements can lead to an overturn on the appeal. Why, if signed witness statements will suffice, are people arguing for live testimony?
                                  It has not yet been established that “signed witness statements will suffice”. The hope is to have a discussion of various issues, for example, signed witness statement, sworn statements, the ability to compel live testimony, the merits or not of direct cross-examination, etc.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post


                                    We know that there is a very extensive investigation by SafeSport before they announce they have determined that there are credible allegations of misconduct. However, there is no independent arbitrator (analogous to the judge) prior to the appeal. Like the police and DA, SafeSport will want to investigate all sides of the case, including interviewing the respondent and his witnesses to determine whether they have enough evidence to meet their burden of proof IF it comes to arbitration. However, it is not clear to me that the investigation part is the part of the process that is intended to be a fair balanced assessment of the evidence.

                                    The respondent’s primary venue for stating his case, as I understand it, is when it goes before an independent arbitrator, which happens during the appeal. As a private person, I am very comfortable considering GM “guilty”. However, note that SafeSport does not use the word “guilty”. They just say “credible allegation of misconduct.”

                                    I begrudgingly admit that the ISWG people have a tiny bit of a legitimate complaint in that the ban is imposed before the appeal has been completed, because I have some sympathy with the notion that he has not yet had the opportunity to defend himself in front of the independent arbitrator.
                                    This is not true. The Responding Party can present whatever evidence they want during the investigation. They have the opportunity to discredit the victim. They can provide evidence disputing the claim, etc. The investigator interviews witnesses, compiles reports from doctors/therapist, character statements, etc. (Similar to police or HR investigation). The investigator writes a report presenting his evidence to the SS director who reviews everything and make a decision. I guess you could say he is not independent, since he is employed by SS, but it does not benefit SS if the evidence is not strong enough for the decision to be upheld during arbitration.
                                    Last edited by Keep it Simple; Aug. 27, 2019, 02:02 PM.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                                      People keep forgetting that SafeSport isn't convicting anyone of crimes. They are just "firing" people who do not abide by the organization's standards.
                                      I’ve heard people saying that SafeSport bans are analogous to getting fired from a job for sexual harassment, and I have to strongly disagree with that.

                                      If someone is fired from a job for sexual harassment, they’re still free to seek employment with other companies in the same area of business, other areas of the country. The reason for their getting fired is not made publicly known and listed on a website along with the nature of the harassment claim.

                                      With a SafeSport ban, those that aren’t Really Big Names are effectively excluded from the whole sport (yes, I know, Paul Valliere, blah blah blah, but I doubt if a local no-name trainer would be able to pull the same thing off), and their names and infractions are made readily available to the general public.

                                      I am totally ok with this, because I don’t believe that SafeSport hands out bans without a high degree of certainty that the accusations are legit. I don’t think that they are banning anyone because some anonymous claimant said a male trainer dated a 17 year old 30 years ago when he was 20. I don’t “stand with George” and I find the outcry against his ban pretty appalling because I believe that they wouldn’t have banned him without some pretty conclusive evidence.

                                      But SafeSport bans are NOT “just getting fired” or “being excluded from a club.” They are losing your livelihood and being placed on what is essentially a sex-offender registry.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by NoSuchPerson View Post
                                        I feel like this thread has gone on so long that we now have new people showing up and rehashing all the same stuff that was discussed ad nauseam earlier. Which is, I guess, inevitable when you have long-running discussions.

                                        So we're over 2900 posts in and I still haven't heard any solid suggestions for "improving" SafeSport beyond the oft repeated demands to adopt the procedures of the criminal/civil justice system, which is a useless suggestion because SafeSport was explicitly created to operate outside the bounds of that system.

                                        And now I've repeated myself for the umpteenth time, so I guess I need to be done with this discussion.
                                        “SafeSport was explicitly created to operate outside the bounds of” the criminal justice system. True. Absolutely true. We all understand that.

                                        In your mind, does accepting that statement logically imply that there is no way that SafeSport can be modified by altering one or two specific aspects of its procedures and with appropriate modification possibly be better configured to weed out bad guys and/or reduce fears of innocent people being banned? Altering one or two specific procedural features might make it look a tiny, tiny bit more like the criminal justice system, but would still leave it operating “outside the bounds of the criminal justice system”, as it is now.

                                        Please note this is a yes or no question. The question is not rhetorical. Please respond.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post

                                          It has not yet been established that “signed witness statements will suffice”. The hope is to have a discussion of various issues, for example, signed witness statement, sworn statements, the ability to compel live testimony, the merits or not of direct cross-examination, etc.
                                          Actually it has with the Lopez case. Signed statements are a thing in any HR type investigation, which is what Safe Sport is. I highly doubt the arbitration process would have a higher bar for evidence than the investigation process to hand out a ban.

                                          Keep it Simple can you clarify this point?

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X