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George Morris on the SS list

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    Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

    She was pointing out the “alleged victim” part. It is an interesting word choice. People don’t need to lighten up .
    I don’t see a major moral issue with using the term “alleged victim” during the time prior to a ruling of guilty or liable. It goes along with that presumption of innocence thing. Is using the term “alleged victim” in the time interval prior to a guilty ruling victim bashing now?

    I would never suggest that you, personally, should “lighten up”.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Peggy View Post

      Indeed it was.
      I thought as much. Interesting that Phelps Media is only invested in this crusade in a very small manner.

      To send out George's "I am so offended by this terribly unfair banning" email to the unfortunate people who happened to be available because they were on the email list of Phelps Media, didn't take much effort or cost.

      Having a (former?) member ask for donations to pursue an ill advised and scatterbrained attempt to "reform" Safe Sport, when their only problem with it so far is that a few horseman have been banned for molesting students, is not likely to influence politicians to join their cause. Thus the "crowdfunding".

      I doubt any business entity would spend money on that. They'll leave it to others who can't see which way the wind blows when it comes to child molesters.

      Comment


        I mean, what do they think is going to happen?

        They fly out to talk to congress members.

        Congress members are like ??? Isn't this to help prevent child molesters from molesting children in sports?

        DUE PROCESS!!!!!!!!! LACK OF TRANSPARENCY!!!!!!!!

        *Congress members may decide to look into it because reasons

        "So SS, these people are upset about this process. What is this all about?"

        "We have absolute proof that their "GOD" has committed these crimes, we did a very long investigation and decided that after all of the evidence that was presented to us from both sides because we do what we are supposed to do, that we banned him. Apparently they are pissed off about it. Here, read his book."

        Congress members: ...

        Comment


          Originally posted by HLMom View Post
          The verbiage below was posted on the "SafeSport Overhaul" Facebook page today. I was somewhat puzzled by it. It seems to indicate that SafeSport currently has a retired FBI investigator investigating GM. But I thought SafeSport's investigation was completed before they issue a sanction?? At least that's what the flowchart shows.


          A SATURDAY MORNING OBSERVATION.

          IF YOU GET A CALL FROM THIS MAN OR ANYONE ELSE "INVESTIGATING" anyone...at the opening of the conversation please tell him you want a copy of his notes of your conversation!!!!!! Then at the end of your time with him PLEASE remind him YOU WANT HIS NOTES....YOU ARE ENTITLED TO THEM!!!! Don't get caught off guard!!

          I was on the phone for an hour and a half (or more) with the retired FBI guy who is investigating George yesterday. WE WILL NOT DEBATE THE GEORGE SITUATION HERE!!!

          HOWEVER, it was definitely interesting and enlightening to get first hand knowledge of these 'investigations'...

          He is pleasant (or was to me at least) interested in the case, takes detailed notes and comes back to them as he needed.....but remember....he clearly has an agenda AND A JOB ASSIGNMENT!.

          I BELIEVE he (or another 'investigator) has been fed some amazingly erroneous information. He also talked about the SS Center and their assignments and jobs.

          MY TAKE AWAY.....we have a lot of work to so but there might be cracks in the woodwork!!!

          JUST MY OPINION!!

          PSSSS...no discussing any specific case or people please.
          So, Ms Khobstetter, I can't help but notice the difference in how you present yourself to the people on your Safe Sport "Overhaul" page, and how you present yourself here. You are obviously capable of writing properly, so why the hysterical writing on your fundraising page?


          I suggest that you tone down the !!!! and ODD CAPITALIZATIONS, use proper sentence structure and punctuation, and make some factual arguments that you have with Safe Sport, if you are really preparing materials to give to U.S. Representatives.

          Why the marked difference in your manner of writing, I can only imagine.

          Comment


            Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post

            I don’t see a major moral issue with using the term “alleged victim” during the time prior to a ruling of guilty or liable. It goes along with that presumption of innocence thing. Is using the term “alleged victim” in the time interval prior to a guilty ruling victim bashing now?

            I would never suggest that you, personally, should “lighten up”.
            The moral issue, as I read it, is that it is usually the victim that does the "self-alleging" here. And arguing that someone might be wrong about what happened to themselves is incredibly invalidating. It is also an unfortunate strategy that has long been part of the defense's tool box-- "she said 'no', but she meant 'yes'"-- etc. Can we just stop doing that with victims of sex crimes, please? The strategy is no longer morally acceptable.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


              A quick question for those of you who think you can take the political temperature to things right now:

              Do you think there is an appetite at this moment for Congress to get on board with making sure that those investigated and banned by an organization like SafeSport get some better process? I just don't know how much pay-off there is to standing on the opposite side of an organization founded to stop the likes of Larry Nassar and Jerry Sandusky.

              What do you all think?
              The armchair saddler
              Politically Pro-Cat

              Comment


                Maybe the ISWG people can go to Congress & picket with the ISWL people (I stand with Larry Nassar) That would catch people’s attention.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by mvp View Post
                  A quick question for those of you who think you can take the political temperature to things right now:

                  Do you think there is an appetite at this moment for Congress to get on board with making sure that those investigated and banned by an organization like SafeSport get some better process? I just don't know how much pay-off there is to standing on the opposite side of an organization founded to stop the likes of Larry Nassar and Jerry Sandusky.

                  What do you all think?
                  No way. Even if it caught on with a few members of Congress at an extreme end of the political spectrum... Pelosi is the Speaker of the House, and McConnell the Senate Majority Leader. Both have been around long enough to know what political suicide looks like when they see it.

                  As for the Commander in Chief... he is nothing if not capricious. However... he did sign this into law. So it’s unlikely it’s going to get amended during the 2020 cycle.

                  It seems far more likely it will be challenged via the courts. On narrow grounds. And that is a long, long process. Could take a few years for a challenge to make its way through the process. GM is in his 80’s... his specific case is what it is, and I am still of the opinion that it is NOT the best case to use to try and overturn Safe Sport. And regardless of wealthy benefactors (I think that issue is a bit overblown with him)... it’s not wise for someone in their 80’s to spend a great deal on a long shot civil suit trying to overturn a law intended to prevent sexual abuse of minors in sport.

                  I’m not saying that there aren’t some valid points to be made about concerns over the Safe Sport process... but the ISWG people are living in an alternate reality.
                  Last edited by Virginia Horse Mom; Aug. 26, 2019, 09:56 AM. Reason: typo

                  Comment


                    WARNING: Long essay ahead.

                    I think it is interesting that Kathy, one of the few horse professionals who has actually held a job somewhat outside the horse industry, is so vocal against what amounts to a Human Resources Disciplinary
                    Panel.

                    SafeSport is not a criminal court -- it does not and cannot impinge upon consitutional liberties. Those found in non-compliance with the Code of Conduct do not go to jail. They are not on parole. They are free to move about, to vote, to own a gun, and so on.

                    It's not a civil court -- SafeSport does not award monetary compensation to victims.

                    It is, however, similar in many ways to the HR department of any large corporation. Let's call the corporation the United States Olympic Committee, and the NGBs are operational divisions within the larger corporation. The athletes and coaches are the 'employees' within the operational divisions that make up the corporation.

                    At any corporation, there are codes of conduct all employees--from the mailroom to the boardroom--must adhere to, or face consequences. A minor infraction will usually result in a warning from the direct manager, and the consequences escalate if the offense is repeated. So if Joe tells an inappropriate joke in the lunchroom, he gets a verbal warning rom his supervisor (who may also involve HR). If he tells another, he gets a written warning from his supervisor and HR and sent to sensitivity training. A third might get him a 'last chance' written warning. The fourth time he tells a salty joke he may well find himself pounding the pavement with his resume in his hand.

                    It doesn't matter if Joe is THE BEST employee in all other ways. He failed to uphold the code of conduct, so he is out.

                    At Acme Widgets Corporation, Sam the National Sales Manager comes up behind Jenny, makes a lewd pass at her and smacks her on the bum. Jenny is distraught, and goes immediately to her manager. Now, back in the day, Sam might've got a warning, or Jenny might have been told to 'suck it up buttercup.'

                    No more.

                    Today, Jenny is told by her manager to go straight to HR. She tells them what happened. Sam is called in to face HR. He is put on administrative leave ASAP, and since his role is almost entirely commission based, that means he does not earn any money. HR interviews Jenny, Sam, other employees on the team, the managers, a customer who was in the office that day, even the guy who was restocking the vending machines. IT is pulled in to review all of Sam's email, his browser history, the call and text records on his company phone. All his expenses are audited.

                    After gathering all this evidence, HR informs Sam that he is terminated with cause. They remind him that he agreed to abide by the code of conduct when he signed his contract. He will not receive a severance package. He will not receive a reference. This means he will struggle to find employment at the same level in a different corporation.

                    Sam chooses to hire an lawyer and sue for wrongful dismissal (if his jurisdiction makes that worth pursuing). During that case, the lawyers for Acme Widgets Corporation not only present the evidence they used to terminate with cause. They contact every single solitary company Sam has ever worked for to find out what, if any, discipline was on his file there. Lo and behold, this is his second or third time he has behaved in an inapproprite manner by getting 'handsy' with female coworkers. In the worst case, he coerced sex from an intern, telling her he'd be sure she got a full time job on his team when she graduated. The other corporations paid him off to leave and swept the incidents under the rug. Only Acme Widgets had the backbone to stand up for the victim. They not only win the court case, they bring ALL of Sam's past transgressions to light as well.

                    So now Sam has lost his job and his income. He has incurred legal fees. His name is MUD in the widget industry. No one will hire him. No one will buy from him.

                    Do you feel sorry for him?

                    Stop and ask yourself. Think hard. Do you feel sorry for Sam?

                    Would you take his side if he got on social media and whined all over the place? Screamed about 'due process' and 'guilty until proven innocent' and 'constitutional rights'?

                    Would you, as his friend, start petitions? Solicit funds to create pamphlets? Start a Go Fund Me so you could fly all over the country to talk with the shareholders of Acme Widgets?

                    Would you rail against Acme Widgets and its HR department online, spreading falsehoods? Take the word of a misinformed copyright lawyer with an agenda over that of an employment lawyer?

                    Would you continue to support him when other people known to sexually exploit, lie, cheat, and steal join in his fight? Even convicted rapists? Would you?

                    Because if Acme Widgets is the USOC, USEF is the sales department and SafeSport is the HR department (and those elected representatives the Overhul group wants to speak with are the shareholders), that is precisely what the ISWG and Overhul groups are doing. They are standing with Sam. They are believing the words of a lawyer with no expertise in this area of the law. They are allowing convicted rapists and child molesters to have a voice renouncing a law that was put in place precisely to silence those MOFOs.

                    Or would you tell Sam he's darned lucky to not be in jail? To count his lucky f***ing stars, shape up his behavior and find gainful employment in another field?

                    Jenny represents all the nameless and faceless victims -- many, many of them minors -- who have fallen to Sam, who represents all those with a lifetime ban from SafeSport. They've lost their jobs, not their liberties. They need to shape up their behavior and find gainful employment in another field.

                    It is NOT the fault of the victims that these individuals have no other employable skills. That is the fault of the so-called professionals who have failed to be professional. They have failed to abide by the code of conduct they agreed to when they became members of USEF. They have been terminated with cause.

                    We are sad that Sam is not the upstanding guy we thought he was, but we accept the fact that he lost his job. And we're in various degrees of shock, outrage and disgust that Sam's friends are actually not just accepting but encouraging convicted criminals in their fight against SafeSport. They aren't even making cogent suggestions for improving the HR policies and procedures at Acme Widgets. If they were at least doing that, it would be worth listening to; in the meantime, clean house within your advocacy group.

                    There's a saying here on COTH that dates back many moons: "When someone shows you who they really are, believe them."

                    We see you. We believe you. We aren't happy.

                    Comment


                      Personally I didn't see anything wrong with the "alleged victim", isn't that just the verbage they use in court ("alleged victim", "accused", "alleged shooter", etc) until the final judgement is made? Not a law person at all, but I always understood that to just be the term they are required to use. Like, Michael Barisone shot that LK chick, but he is still called "alleged shooter" even though it's not uncertain that he shot her. It's not uncertain that the victim is actually a victim.


                      Also, on the subject of equestrian clothes being "sexy": I don't think the little kids stuff is at all, but anyone who says equestrian breeches aren't sexualized hasn't seen the tons of teen girls on IG posing in their breeches with their butts stuck out to the camera to make it look big. Like, it can be quite excessive. Disclaimer: it's totally their right to wear whatever they want and men still need to be held responsible for their actions, the girls aren't "asking for" anything, etc, etc. The gear IS made to be more athletic. Doesn't mean some of the younger girls aren't actively trying to make themselves look sexy in them (I just look like a lumpy potato, I wish I could look like that.)

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by mvp View Post

                        Do you think there is an appetite at this moment for Congress to get on board with making sure that those investigated and banned by an organization like SafeSport get some better process? I just don't know how much pay-off there is to standing on the opposite side of an organization founded to stop the likes of Larry Nassar and Jerry Sandusky.

                        What do you all think?
                        Right now, Congress wouldn't touch this with the proverbial 10 ft pole. I don't think Congress will ever touch this and I think people are nuts if they think they can convince Congress to intervene.

                        Given that other sports have, as far as I can tell, accepted SafeSport actions without huge meltdowns over the horrible unfairness of it all, I think the equestrian world's temper tantrums just make us look like we're all a bunch of entitled whiners who support a culture in which sexual misconduct with minors is deeply ingrained.

                        "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                        that's even remotely true."

                        Homer Simpson

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

                          No way. Even if it caught on with a few members of Congress at an extreme end of the political spectrum... Pelosi is the Speaker of the House, and McConnell the Senate Majority Leader. Both have been around long enough to know what political suicide looks like when they see it.

                          As for the Commander in Chief... he is nothing if not capricious. However... he did sign this into law. So it’s unlikely it’s going to get amended during the 2020 cycle.

                          It seems far more likely it will be challenged via the courts. On narrow grounds. And that is a long, long process. Could take a few years for a challenge to make its way through the process. GM is in his 80’s... his specific case is what it is, and I am still of the opinion that it is NOT the best case to use to try and overturn Safe Sport. And regardless of wealthy benefactors (I think that issue is a bit overblown with him)... it’s not wise for someone in their 80’s to spend a great deal on a long shot civil suit trying to overturn a law intended to prevent sexual abuse of minors in sport.

                          I’m not saying that there aren’t some valid points to be made about concerns over the Safe Sport process... but the ISWG people are living in an alternate reality.
                          I agree with you. It is a no-win political issue. Any developments are going to take place in the JAMS setting and (down the road) in civil courts.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by mvp View Post

                            The moral issue, as I read it, is that it is usually the victim that does the "self-alleging" here. And arguing that someone might be wrong about what happened to themselves is incredibly invalidating. It is also an unfortunate strategy that has long been part of the defense's tool box-- "she said 'no', but she meant 'yes'"-- etc. Can we just stop doing that with victims of sex crimes, please? The strategy is no longer morally acceptable.
                            You do acknowledge there can be false allegations, don't you?

                            Or is everyone accused of sexual misconduct definitely guilty? If that's what you think, then I assume you would favor dispensing with criminal rape trials altogether and just automatically convicting anyone who is accused?

                            Even SS has publicly acknowledged research showing that 2-10% of allegations are false. (I will try to find the citation for you). I guess they are wrong about that?

                            And you may know that the Innocence Project has exonerated dozens and dozens of men falsely convicted of rape. I suppose you think that is some kind of scam too? Those men must have really done it since they were accused?

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by DarkBayUnicorn View Post
                              WARNING: Long essay ahead.

                              I think it is interesting that Kathy, one of the few horse professionals who has actually held a job somewhat outside the horse industry, is so vocal against what amounts to a Human Resources Disciplinary
                              Panel.

                              SafeSport is not a criminal court -- it does not and cannot impinge upon consitutional liberties. Those found in non-compliance with the Code of Conduct do not go to jail. They are not on parole. They are free to move about, to vote, to own a gun, and so on.

                              It's not a civil court -- SafeSport does not award monetary compensation to victims.

                              It is, however, similar in many ways to the HR department of any large corporation. Let's call the corporation the United States Olympic Committee, and the NGBs are operational divisions within the larger corporation. The athletes and coaches are the 'employees' within the operational divisions that make up the corporation.

                              At any corporation, there are codes of conduct all employees--from the mailroom to the boardroom--must adhere to, or face consequences. A minor infraction will usually result in a warning from the direct manager, and the consequences escalate if the offense is repeated. So if Joe tells an inappropriate joke in the lunchroom, he gets a verbal warning rom his supervisor (who may also involve HR). If he tells another, he gets a written warning from his supervisor and HR and sent to sensitivity training. A third might get him a 'last chance' written warning. The fourth time he tells a salty joke he may well find himself pounding the pavement with his resume in his hand.

                              It doesn't matter if Joe is THE BEST employee in all other ways. He failed to uphold the code of conduct, so he is out.

                              At Acme Widgets Corporation, Sam the National Sales Manager comes up behind Jenny, makes a lewd pass at her and smacks her on the bum. Jenny is distraught, and goes immediately to her manager. Now, back in the day, Sam might've got a warning, or Jenny might have been told to 'suck it up buttercup.'

                              No more.

                              Today, Jenny is told by her manager to go straight to HR. She tells them what happened. Sam is called in to face HR. He is put on administrative leave ASAP, and since his role is almost entirely commission based, that means he does not earn any money. HR interviews Jenny, Sam, other employees on the team, the managers, a customer who was in the office that day, even the guy who was restocking the vending machines. IT is pulled in to review all of Sam's email, his browser history, the call and text records on his company phone. All his expenses are audited.

                              After gathering all this evidence, HR informs Sam that he is terminated with cause. They remind him that he agreed to abide by the code of conduct when he signed his contract. He will not receive a severance package. He will not receive a reference. This means he will struggle to find employment at the same level in a different corporation.

                              Sam chooses to hire an lawyer and sue for wrongful dismissal (if his jurisdiction makes that worth pursuing). During that case, the lawyers for Acme Widgets Corporation not only present the evidence they used to terminate with cause. They contact every single solitary company Sam has ever worked for to find out what, if any, discipline was on his file there. Lo and behold, this is his second or third time he has behaved in an inapproprite manner by getting 'handsy' with female coworkers. In the worst case, he coerced sex from an intern, telling her he'd be sure she got a full time job on his team when she graduated. The other corporations paid him off to leave and swept the incidents under the rug. Only Acme Widgets had the backbone to stand up for the victim. They not only win the court case, they bring ALL of Sam's past transgressions to light as well.

                              So now Sam has lost his job and his income. He has incurred legal fees. His name is MUD in the widget industry. No one will hire him. No one will buy from him.

                              Do you feel sorry for him?

                              Stop and ask yourself. Think hard. Do you feel sorry for Sam?

                              Would you take his side if he got on social media and whined all over the place? Screamed about 'due process' and 'guilty until proven innocent' and 'constitutional rights'?

                              Would you, as his friend, start petitions? Solicit funds to create pamphlets? Start a Go Fund Me so you could fly all over the country to talk with the shareholders of Acme Widgets?

                              Would you rail against Acme Widgets and its HR department online, spreading falsehoods? Take the word of a misinformed copyright lawyer with an agenda over that of an employment lawyer?

                              Would you continue to support him when other people known to sexually exploit, lie, cheat, and steal join in his fight? Even convicted rapists? Would you?

                              Because if Acme Widgets is the USOC, USEF is the sales department and SafeSport is the HR department (and those elected representatives the Overhul group wants to speak with are the shareholders), that is precisely what the ISWG and Overhul groups are doing. They are standing with Sam. They are believing the words of a lawyer with no expertise in this area of the law. They are allowing convicted rapists and child molesters to have a voice renouncing a law that was put in place precisely to silence those MOFOs.

                              Or would you tell Sam he's darned lucky to not be in jail? To count his lucky f***ing stars, shape up his behavior and find gainful employment in another field?

                              Jenny represents all the nameless and faceless victims -- many, many of them minors -- who have fallen to Sam, who represents all those with a lifetime ban from SafeSport. They've lost their jobs, not their liberties. They need to shape up their behavior and find gainful employment in another field.

                              It is NOT the fault of the victims that these individuals have no other employable skills. That is the fault of the so-called professionals who have failed to be professional. They have failed to abide by the code of conduct they agreed to when they became members of USEF. They have been terminated with cause.

                              We are sad that Sam is not the upstanding guy we thought he was, but we accept the fact that he lost his job. And we're in various degrees of shock, outrage and disgust that Sam's friends are actually not just accepting but encouraging convicted criminals in their fight against SafeSport. They aren't even making cogent suggestions for improving the HR policies and procedures at Acme Widgets. If they were at least doing that, it would be worth listening to; in the meantime, clean house within your advocacy group.

                              There's a saying here on COTH that dates back many moons: "When someone shows you who they really are, believe them."

                              We see you. We believe you. We aren't happy.
                              This is a really, really, really good post.
                              Adversity is the stone on which I sharpen my blade.

                              Comment


                                DarkBayUnicorn - thank you. Your "long essay" is easy to read and digest. Informative without adding hysteria.
                                \"If you are going through hell, keep going.\" ~Churchill~

                                Comment


                                  For mvp, here is one article on the prevalence of false allegations. At one major university, the frequency of false allegations was 6%. (And this study was published by a Violence Against Women group, so they certainly have no incentive to exaggerate the statistics).

                                  https://icdv.idaho.gov/conference/ha...llegations.pdf

                                  NOTE: This does not mean that allegations of sexual abuse should not be taken seriously. What it does mean is that an allegation of sexual abuse is not "proof" that the abuse occurred. As fair-minded people, we want SS to have procedures that give them the best chance of finding out the truth, so that people who are truly guilty are punished and people who are truly innocent are exonerated. Can we all agree on that as a fundamental goal?

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by NoSuchPerson View Post

                                    Right now, Congress wouldn't touch this with the proverbial 10 ft pole. I don't think Congress will ever touch this and I think people are nuts if they think they can convince Congress to intervene.

                                    Given that other sports have, as far as I can tell, accepted SafeSport actions without huge meltdowns over the horrible unfairness of it all, I think the equestrian world's temper tantrums just make us look like we're all a bunch of entitled whiners who support a culture in which sexual misconduct with minors is deeply ingrained.
                                    Agreed, and they certainly aren't going to pay any heed to the group as it is acting now.

                                    Here are some tips to help the SafeSport opposition gain some credibility, and therefore some grassroots support, before even thinking about getting in front of politicians:

                                    1a) Clean house. Get rid of all the convicted felons. Anyone and everyone with a lifetime sport ban that's not subject to appeal. Anyone and everyone who has ever been on the sex offenders registry. You CANNOT say "We don't support child molesters" and then count them among your most fervant and vocal proponents. And get rid of anyone and everyone who was part of killing horses for insurance. Anyone and everyone who has been found guilty of drugging horses, of fraud. Get squeaky clean so you don't look guilty by association. This MUST happen first before you'll win folks over to your side.

                                    1b) Stop bellyaching about everyday safeguards put in place to protect YOU from the selfsame false accusations you all claim to be rampant. All other sports and youth organizations have been doing two-deep interactions for decades. Drag your butts into the 21st Century.

                                    2) Get a lawyer who understands, and has experience in, representing professionals at disciplinary hearings related to ethics. You'll find these folks working with professionals like doctors, lawyers, engineers, real estate agents. Even better, get someone experienced with JAMS, since that is the closest thing you can get to SafeSport. This is not the place for an ambulance chaser lawyer like Bonnie Navin. (Did y'all know that's what she is?)

                                    3) Using the resources from #2, learn how things work in the real world. Not the horse world. The REAL world. You'll find that you've all signed a code of conduct. You have to abide by it if you want to keep your 'job'. Learn how. Now. The rest of us -- the guys with the money to spend on nice horses -- we do it every freaking day. We cannot contemplate why you find it so hard. Start shunning all those who cannot, or will not, comply with the code of conduct (loops back to #1 rather nicely, yes?).

                                    4) Following on #2 and #3, really closely examine the REAL way SafeSport works in comparison to other workplace and professional organization codes of conduct. Not what you heard from Joe. Not your experience with one single complaint. The whole shebang. All the sports, not just equestrian. Understand what makes it different from both criminal (this is key) and civil proceedings. Educate all followers regarding these key points of difference. Eradicate false claims regarding the consitution, statute of limitations, etc. from your arguements and your vocabulary. They simply do not pertain to SafeSport, and the constant wailing and teeth gnashing about them makes you look incredibly ill-informed and irrational.

                                    5) Build consensus outside of the hunter/jumper world first, then outside of equestrian sport. Because honestly, right now, the vast bulk of the wailing and teeth gnashing is coming from H/J. Not eventing, or dressage or vaulting or breed folks. Go further and talk to figure skating, gymnastics, rowing, track, hockey. They have all had MAJOR scandals. Those scandals have generated a ton more media and public interest than anything equestrian can ever attain. Google Maple Leaf Gardens sex scandal and you'll have enough reading for a year. Go to the other sports and ask them how they're handling both the scandals and SafeSport. Ask for lessons learned. Take those lessons onboard. Yes, some might need to be adapted a bit to acknowledge things like the horse as athelete and the fact our training centers also tend to be private homes. But adapt, don't reject outright.

                                    6) Using #2-5, come up with RATIONAL, REASONED, EMOTION-FREE PROPOSALS FOR CHANGE. Present them to the community in a rational, reasoned, emotion-free manner. Listen to feedback from across our sport, and other sports. Listen to the counter arguements and shore up responses. Conduct both qualitative and quantitative research using knowledgeable but impartial third party facilitators.

                                    7) You are now ready to present your case to a lobbyist, who will tell you whether or not it's worth the considerable effort and cost involved in going up the chain to Congress. Be advised there are strict rules around lobbying that make the code of conduct that is SafeSport look like a toddler's playgroup.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by DarkBayUnicorn View Post
                                      WARNING: Long essay ahead.

                                      I think it is interesting that Kathy, one of the few horse professionals who has actually held a job somewhat outside the horse industry, is so vocal against what amounts to a Human Resources Disciplinary
                                      Panel.

                                      SafeSport is not a criminal court -- it does not and cannot impinge upon consitutional liberties. Those found in non-compliance with the Code of Conduct do not go to jail. They are not on parole. They are free to move about, to vote, to own a gun, and so on.

                                      It's not a civil court -- SafeSport does not award monetary compensation to victims.

                                      It is, however, similar in many ways to the HR department of any large corporation. Let's call the corporation the United States Olympic Committee, and the NGBs are operational divisions within the larger corporation. The athletes and coaches are the 'employees' within the operational divisions that make up the corporation.

                                      At any corporation, there are codes of conduct all employees--from the mailroom to the boardroom--must adhere to, or face consequences. A minor infraction will usually result in a warning from the direct manager, and the consequences escalate if the offense is repeated. So if Joe tells an inappropriate joke in the lunchroom, he gets a verbal warning rom his supervisor (who may also involve HR). If he tells another, he gets a written warning from his supervisor and HR and sent to sensitivity training. A third might get him a 'last chance' written warning. The fourth time he tells a salty joke he may well find himself pounding the pavement with his resume in his hand.

                                      It doesn't matter if Joe is THE BEST employee in all other ways. He failed to uphold the code of conduct, so he is out.

                                      At Acme Widgets Corporation, Sam the National Sales Manager comes up behind Jenny, makes a lewd pass at her and smacks her on the bum. Jenny is distraught, and goes immediately to her manager. Now, back in the day, Sam might've got a warning, or Jenny might have been told to 'suck it up buttercup.'

                                      No more.

                                      Today, Jenny is told by her manager to go straight to HR. She tells them what happened. Sam is called in to face HR. He is put on administrative leave ASAP, and since his role is almost entirely commission based, that means he does not earn any money. HR interviews Jenny, Sam, other employees on the team, the managers, a customer who was in the office that day, even the guy who was restocking the vending machines. IT is pulled in to review all of Sam's email, his browser history, the call and text records on his company phone. All his expenses are audited.

                                      After gathering all this evidence, HR informs Sam that he is terminated with cause. They remind him that he agreed to abide by the code of conduct when he signed his contract. He will not receive a severance package. He will not receive a reference. This means he will struggle to find employment at the same level in a different corporation.

                                      Sam chooses to hire an lawyer and sue for wrongful dismissal (if his jurisdiction makes that worth pursuing). During that case, the lawyers for Acme Widgets Corporation not only present the evidence they used to terminate with cause. They contact every single solitary company Sam has ever worked for to find out what, if any, discipline was on his file there. Lo and behold, this is his second or third time he has behaved in an inapproprite manner by getting 'handsy' with female coworkers. In the worst case, he coerced sex from an intern, telling her he'd be sure she got a full time job on his team when she graduated. The other corporations paid him off to leave and swept the incidents under the rug. Only Acme Widgets had the backbone to stand up for the victim. They not only win the court case, they bring ALL of Sam's past transgressions to light as well.

                                      So now Sam has lost his job and his income. He has incurred legal fees. His name is MUD in the widget industry. No one will hire him. No one will buy from him.

                                      Do you feel sorry for him?

                                      Stop and ask yourself. Think hard. Do you feel sorry for Sam?

                                      Would you take his side if he got on social media and whined all over the place? Screamed about 'due process' and 'guilty until proven innocent' and 'constitutional rights'?

                                      Would you, as his friend, start petitions? Solicit funds to create pamphlets? Start a Go Fund Me so you could fly all over the country to talk with the shareholders of Acme Widgets?

                                      Would you rail against Acme Widgets and its HR department online, spreading falsehoods? Take the word of a misinformed copyright lawyer with an agenda over that of an employment lawyer?

                                      Would you continue to support him when other people known to sexually exploit, lie, cheat, and steal join in his fight? Even convicted rapists? Would you?

                                      Because if Acme Widgets is the USOC, USEF is the sales department and SafeSport is the HR department (and those elected representatives the Overhul group wants to speak with are the shareholders), that is precisely what the ISWG and Overhul groups are doing. They are standing with Sam. They are believing the words of a lawyer with no expertise in this area of the law. They are allowing convicted rapists and child molesters to have a voice renouncing a law that was put in place precisely to silence those MOFOs.

                                      Or would you tell Sam he's darned lucky to not be in jail? To count his lucky f***ing stars, shape up his behavior and find gainful employment in another field?

                                      Jenny represents all the nameless and faceless victims -- many, many of them minors -- who have fallen to Sam, who represents all those with a lifetime ban from SafeSport. They've lost their jobs, not their liberties. They need to shape up their behavior and find gainful employment in another field.

                                      It is NOT the fault of the victims that these individuals have no other employable skills. That is the fault of the so-called professionals who have failed to be professional. They have failed to abide by the code of conduct they agreed to when they became members of USEF. They have been terminated with cause.

                                      We are sad that Sam is not the upstanding guy we thought he was, but we accept the fact that he lost his job. And we're in various degrees of shock, outrage and disgust that Sam's friends are actually not just accepting but encouraging convicted criminals in their fight against SafeSport. They aren't even making cogent suggestions for improving the HR policies and procedures at Acme Widgets. If they were at least doing that, it would be worth listening to; in the meantime, clean house within your advocacy group.

                                      There's a saying here on COTH that dates back many moons: "When someone shows you who they really are, believe them."

                                      We see you. We believe you. We aren't happy.
                                      This needs to be posted all over.....what an absolute excellent way to describe it to the pinheads that don’t get it! It’s exactly how it works in the corporate world and exactly how it works in the safe sport world!
                                      Breast cancer survivor!

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                                        You do acknowledge there can be false allegations, don't you?

                                        Or is everyone accused of sexual misconduct definitely guilty? If that's what you think, then I assume you would favor dispensing with criminal rape trials altogether and just automatically convicting anyone who is accused?

                                        Even SS has publicly acknowledged research showing that 2-10% of allegations are false. (I will try to find the citation for you). I guess they are wrong about that?

                                        And you may know that the Innocence Project has exonerated dozens and dozens of men falsely convicted of rape. I suppose you think that is some kind of scam too? Those men must have really done it since they were accused?
                                        My, but that's a broad and accusatory brush you'd tar me with!

                                        Note that I was speaking of the term "alleged victim." And what is the data on how many people present themselves as having been the victim of a sex crime versus those who came forward with those claims only to have them dismissed, one way or another?

                                        And I think it's a false dichotomy to assume that if I want credibility given to victims in the face of a history of their credibility having been badly undermined, you think I must automatically thing the inverse is true about accused perpetrators being automatically guilty.

                                        I don't write or think so coarsely. Check my posts on this thread to verify that claim. I don't deserve to be treated as if that were true.
                                        The armchair saddler
                                        Politically Pro-Cat

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                                          You do acknowledge there can be false allegations, don't you?

                                          Or is everyone accused of sexual misconduct definitely guilty? If that's what you think, then I assume you would favor dispensing with criminal rape trials altogether and just automatically convicting anyone who is accused?

                                          Even SS has publicly acknowledged research showing that 2-10% of allegations are false. (I will try to find the citation for you). I guess they are wrong about that?

                                          And you may know that the Innocence Project has exonerated dozens and dozens of men falsely convicted of rape. I suppose you think that is some kind of scam too? Those men must have really done it since they were accused?
                                          There is a difference between a false accusation and a wrongful conviction.

                                          I am forever surprised that people worry more about the 6% of the accusations, of the less than half of assaults reported, than the exponentially larger number of victims. You can say you're also for the victims, but when women are more concerned about repercussions for their sons than their daughters, there is a wild disconnect.
                                          *****
                                          You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

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