Sport Horse Spotlight

C-Quito1

Real Estate Spotlight

Main-Barn-Bench-to-end2

Sale Spotlight

index
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

George Morris on the SS list

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I'm confused. Congress authorized Safe Sport to establish policies and procedures. Why wouldn't those who desire an overhaul address their grievances to the USEF and Safe Sport?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

      I fail to see what is unfair about the process. I fail to see what is unethical. Maybe my ethics are different. Further more, vague sentences about pamphlets and such do nothing to entice donations. What exactly, line by line, would that money be used for?
      Read Hobstetter's post. Does that not explain where they intend the money to go?

      I don't think the plan sounds too vague for public consumption. I think the "line by line" budget isn't what most organizations would publish in something like a GoFundMe request. It's fine for you and Hobstetter to disagree on what counts on fairness in the process.... so long as both sides actually know what the process is.
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mvp View Post

        Read Hobstetter's post. Does that not explain where they intend the money to go?

        I don't think the plan sounds too vague for public consumption. I think the "line by line" budget isn't what most organizations would publish in something like a GoFundMe request. It's fine for you and Hobstetter to disagree on what counts on fairness in the process.... so long as both sides actually know what the process is.
        I did read it. It didn’t mention money for plane tickets which apparently is a thing. Also, no one can say what is unfair about the process that isn’t in the context of criminal courts. If they have been I’ve missed it.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

          I don’t follow it. So the gofund me is to pay for her and others plane tickets?
          Yes.
          *****
          You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
            Could you explain the current and specific procedural issues you see with the Safe sport process?

            When asked without exception we only get evidence that the person quarried is either unfamiliar with the procedures, or making things up.
            I don't know if this is directed at me or KHobstetter.

            Speaking for myself, I have not reached a conclusion as to whether SafeSport's procedures are adequate or not. I am very eager to see more cases proceed to arbitration where they will be reviewed by JAMS arbitrators--who are generally former judges and much more learned and experienced than I am. It has been stated here and elsewhere that a high percentage of SS sanctions have been overturned in arbitration, which would certainly be cause for concern. I have not been able to determine the truth of that statement.

            Having reviewed the SS flowchart, the SS arbitration rules, and given my familiarity with normal JAMS arbitration rules, these are my concerns:

            1. It is unclear when the accused sees all the evidence (for example, witness statements) against him. That does not appear on the flowchart.

            2. The arbitration procedure does not allow any discovery. This is contrary to normal JAMS procedure, so SS has made a decision to deny the accused discovery. Discovery is considered crucial to fairness in both civil and criminal litigation, so this is a significant concern.

            3. Lack of cross-examination--again, an essential tool in determining the credibility of a testifying witness.

            4. Lack of subpoena power. This could prevent the accused from bringing in potentially exculpatory witnesses if they don't want to show up voluntarily.

            These are protections afforded in any civil (not just criminal) trial, even in small claims cases! I think we can all agree the consequences of a SS sanction are at least as serious as a small claims action, so these issues do nag at me.

            The question of whether the accused has a "legal right" to these protections is somewhat of a red herring. I believe there are good legal arguments that he does, for reasons discussed pages and pages ago. However, even if this is not the case, I think we can all agree that we want any organization we are part of to have fair and reasonable procedures. So it is legitimate for us to discuss what meets the standard of "fair and reasonable" to the accused and the alleged victim.

            In the interest of empathy and considering all points of view, I would also suggest we conduct the following thought experiment. I get the sense this board is overwhelmingly women. Thus, we naturally identify more with victims than perpetrators--indeed, many of us have been victims. But any of us could have a son or husband accused under SS. Ask yourself, what procedures would you feel are reasonable in that situation? What procedures would give you confidence that the outcome will be correct? Borrowing from the philosopher John Rawls, putting yourself in each possible role and asking what you would want in that situation is a powerful way of determining what is fair.

            I have a friend whose son was accused of rape; the son faced an "expedited" disciplinary procedure that got him kicked out of school with few procedural protections. A later civil suit revealed that there were plenty of witnesses who would (and did) undermine the girl's story, and her son was exonerated, but not before he had lost two years of his life.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by khobstetter View Post

              GOOD MORNING FROM Safe Sport OVERHAUL. Kathy Hobstetter here - the one you (dannyboy) says is "not the brightest star in the sky"...certainly been called worse than that in my lifetime. :-) . Before any conversation with this guy I did an in dept research of who he is, who he is working for, what he wants and why he is calling the people in the sport. I assure you I did not blindly go into that phone conversation.

              For Yankee Dutchess and anyone else who questions why there are calls from Safe Sport going around like this - The appeal for George has not happened yet, is coming up, and they have investigators following up after the NYT story as they get ready for the appeal and shoring up Safe Sports side..

              I posted the above information on OVERHAUL so people out here in the sport could have a heads up and would not be surprised if they got a call.... Thank you for following us over there.

              PS...we posted the GoFund me for expenses as we work at an OVERHAUL of Safe Sport for simply Fair process. Knocking on doors is truly a funny remark about the work. The cost of getting to Congresspeople in Iowa, Texas, Colorado, Washington DC, all over California and the west coast and other congressional offices will be, and IS, certainly costly. Printing pamphlets, documents and folders for Congressional members we are requesting help from is way costly. etc. We are doing a lot of work (which takes hours and hours and expense money) and appreciate ANYONE who cannot do the foot work but can pitch in a few dollars to help our wonderful sport of horses and support our project of Fair Sport. We do not voice in on the specific situations, we are rather working hard at the process..

              Thank you for your interest, concern and support if you wish.
              Kathy
              Kathy-
              What you added here does not contradict my speculation (I have no way of knowing for a fact), that SafeSport requested a continuance to follow up additional reports.

              I trust that your intentions and motivation behind your SafeSport Overhaul page are honest and good.

              However, you are not running the page in a way that works toward any specific, feasible changes. You are not going to get SafeSport to have the same level of due process and constitutional protections as the criminal justice system. It is a waste of time to keep throwing out catch words like “due process”, “guilty before proven innocent”, “violation of constitution rights”, “banned based on mere allegations.”

              If your group could come up with a proposal for a few specific, incremental changes, and articulate both the proposed change and the rationale behind it, there is some chance you could achieve change.

              Your petition is much, much too vague for any lawmaker to respond to, even if they wanted to. In fact it pretty much advertises the fact that your group cannot put together a coherent, feasible proposal for change. Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be deemed a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

              In the SafeSport process, it is not until the appeal that the respondent is in front of an independent arbitrator and fully has a chance to defend himself. For this reason, if you wanted the ban delayed until after the ban had been upheld after appeal, I would be in favor of that. (If the respondent were not a current threat, and if there were limitations on delays). But you are not providing any specific changes, reasonable, unreasonable, or otherwise.

              To me, both the Overhaul page and your petition just say “I really don’t think SafeSport is fair, and I’m self-righteous about it.”

              I really don’t understand why you think that that is going to accomplish any change.

              Comment


              • Horsegirl's Mom may I suggest you read the safesport website, rather than relying on the flowchart.

                Many of your misconceptions will be clarified.

                Its the equivalent of asking you to read a book before you try to give a plot summary or review.
                Let me apologize in advance.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                  Horsegirl's Mom may I suggest you read the safesport website, rather than relying on the flowchart.

                  Many of your misconceptions will be clarified.

                  Its the equivalent of asking you to read a book before you try to give a plot summary or review.
                  The flowchart is on the SafeSport website, under "Response and Resolution Process." Perhaps you may wish to study the website more closely?

                  I note you do not address any of my specific concerns. I welcome open-minded and reasoned discussion.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                    The flowchart is on the SafeSport website, under "Response and Resolution Process." Perhaps you may wish to study the website more closely?

                    I note you do not address any of my specific concerns. I welcome open-minded and reasoned discussion.
                    Because they have been discussed at length many times over to statements like the ones you made. The flow chart is the cliff notes version of the response and resolution process.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                      Because they have been discussed at length many times over to statements like the ones you made. The flow chart is the cliff notes version of the response and resolution process.
                      My concerns are based on study of the SS website and the JAMS procedures.

                      I'm a little frustrated that you and others just want to say, "That's not true!!!! Na na na na na, No way is that true!!!!!" yet you present no contrary facts. If I am incorrect, show me using an authoritative source. I am here to learn and form thoughtful opinions. I have no agenda, other than truth and fairness.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                        My concerns are based on study of the SS website and the JAMS procedures.

                        I'm a little frustrated that you and others just want to say, "That's not true!!!! Na na na na na, No way is that true!!!!!" yet you present no contrary facts. If I am incorrect, show me using an authoritative source. I am here to learn and form thoughtful opinions. I have no agenda, other than truth and fairness.
                        Or you could read through the thread, specifically FiSk123 posts. Why should we all retype what has already been posted and reposted? Your study of the SS website seems to be limited to a flow chart. I am a little frustrated with people wanting to be spoon fed information time and again.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Midge View Post

                          If you follow the overhaul page, it is clear that Kathy and others are putting their own money in so far to travel and meet with legislators. They are asking other like minded folks to pitch in.
                          And apparently happy to take money from Cackling Yentas too

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                            The flowchart is on the SafeSport website, under "Response and Resolution Process." Perhaps you may wish to study the website more closely?

                            I note you do not address any of my specific concerns. I welcome open-minded and reasoned discussion.
                            Your statements are ill-informed and have been addressed repeatedly. Please educate yourself before engaging again. Or just keep on keeping on. You cannot exact change when you are unfamiliar what it is you are seeking to change.
                            Let me apologize in advance.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

                              Your statements are ill-informed and have been addressed repeatedly. Please educate yourself before engaging again. Or just keep on keeping on. You cannot exact change when you are unfamiliar what it is you are seeking to change.
                              Just as I thought, you can point to nothing that contradicts the concerns I have raised. And yes, I have read this entire thread, in addition to the SS and arbitration procedures.

                              It's okay for you to disagree as to whether certain procedural protections are necessary. I understand people will have different points of view about that, and as I've noted, I myself have not come to a final conclusion as to how to weigh the conflicting priorities.

                              But what is odd is to hear people insist that features that are clearly written in the rules--like no discovery-- aren't real. Honestly, I don't think we can have a discussion if we can't even agree on what the rules actually are.

                              The SS procedure raises interesting issues, to be sure. I'm sure we will all be eager to see what the JAMS retired judges think of it.
                              Last edited by HLMom; Aug. 25, 2019, 06:42 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                                I don't know if this is directed at me or KHobstetter.

                                Speaking for myself, I have not reached a conclusion as to whether SafeSport's procedures are adequate or not. I am very eager to see more cases proceed to arbitration where they will be reviewed by JAMS arbitrators--who are generally former judges and much more learned and experienced than I am. It has been stated here and elsewhere that a high percentage of SS sanctions have been overturned in arbitration, which would certainly be cause for concern. I have not been able to determine the truth of that statement.

                                Having reviewed the SS flowchart, the SS arbitration rules, and given my familiarity with normal JAMS arbitration rules, these are my concerns:

                                1. It is unclear when the accused sees all the evidence (for example, witness statements) against him. That does not appear on the flowchart.

                                2. The arbitration procedure does not allow any discovery. This is contrary to normal JAMS procedure, so SS has made a decision to deny the accused discovery. Discovery is considered crucial to fairness in both civil and criminal litigation, so this is a significant concern.

                                3. Lack of cross-examination--again, an essential tool in determining the credibility of a testifying witness.

                                4. Lack of subpoena power. This could prevent the accused from bringing in potentially exculpatory witnesses if they don't want to show up voluntarily.

                                These are protections afforded in any civil (not just criminal) trial, even in small claims cases! I think we can all agree the consequences of a SS sanction are at least as serious as a small claims action, so these issues do nag at me.

                                The question of whether the accused has a "legal right" to these protections is somewhat of a red herring. I believe there are good legal arguments that he does, for reasons discussed pages and pages ago. However, even if this is not the case, I think we can all agree that we want any organization we are part of to have fair and reasonable procedures. So it is legitimate for us to discuss what meets the standard of "fair and reasonable" to the accused and the alleged victim.

                                In the interest of empathy and considering all points of view, I would also suggest we conduct the following thought experiment. I get the sense this board is overwhelmingly women. Thus, we naturally identify more with victims than perpetrators--indeed, many of us have been victims. But any of us could have a son or husband accused under SS. Ask yourself, what procedures would you feel are reasonable in that situation? What procedures would give you confidence that the outcome will be correct? Borrowing from the philosopher John Rawls, putting yourself in each possible role and asking what you would want in that situation is a powerful way of determining what is fair.

                                I have a friend whose son was accused of rape; the son faced an "expedited" disciplinary procedure that got him kicked out of school with few procedural protections. A later civil suit revealed that there were plenty of witnesses who would (and did) undermine the girl's story, and her son was exonerated, but not before he had lost two years of his life.
                                I only read the forum and never comment but I came across an article about "lifetime" bans being lifted on 2 taekwondo Olympic coaches who had been banned early last year by SS. Interesting. Reinstatement due to arbitration. https://www.orangecountycoast.com/su...reinstatement/

                                Comment


                                • khobstetter
                                  Um...if you had actually read my post you would see that the person who said that you were not the brightest light in the sky was skydy, not me. I simply said that I didn't believe that investigations were conducted in the way you outlined. If you did some background research and were convinced the person was genuine, fine, but that's not the way your post read. I'm still not contributing.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                                    khobstetter
                                    Um...if you had actually read my post you would see that the person who said that you were not the brightest light in the sky was skydy, not me. I simply said that I didn't believe that investigations were conducted in the way you outlined. If you did some background research and were convinced the person was genuine, fine, but that's not the way your post read. I'm still not contributing.
                                    they're all just copying and pasting the same list of grievances that aptly demonstrate they have not familiarized themselves with the rules or process.

                                    This is actually exactly what it's like when a kid in your class who clearly hasn't read the book starts arguing a point about the plot or characters of said book she hasn't read.

                                    Or oh oh when someone at a party hears your specialty and then--despite having no actual background in it--starts lecturing you on your specialty based on what their dad said, or uncle, or a blog. It's hilarious to a point, but then it's just exhausting.
                                    Just no.
                                    Let me apologize in advance.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by khobstetter View Post
                                      The cost of getting to Congresspeople in Iowa, Texas, Colorado, Washington DC, all over California and the west coast and other congressional offices will be, and IS, certainly costly. Printing pamphlets, documents and folders for Congressional members we are requesting help from is way costly. etc. We are doing a lot of work (which takes hours and hours and expense money) and appreciate ANYONE who cannot do the foot work but can pitch in a few dollars to help our wonderful sport of horses and support our project of Fair Sport. We do not voice in on the specific situations, we are rather working hard at the process..

                                      Thank you for your interest, concern and support if you wish.
                                      Kathy
                                      If only there were one central location where all members of Congress met and had their offices.

                                      But yes, you should find plenty of support among lawmakers in an election year who’d love to co-sponsor a bill making life easier on child molesters.
                                      A helmet saved my life.

                                      2017 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Bristol Bay View Post

                                        If only there were one central location where all members of Congress met and had their offices.

                                        But yes, you should find plenty of support among lawmakers in an election year who’d love to co-sponsor a bill making life easier on child molesters.


                                        Its funny cause it's so insane on its face, and shouting *ProCeSs!!!!!!!!* just doesn't make it better.
                                        Let me apologize in advance.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

                                          they're all just copying and pasting the same list of grievances that aptly demonstrate they have not familiarized themselves with the rules or process.

                                          This is actually exactly what it's like when a kid in your class who clearly hasn't read the book starts arguing a point about the plot or characters of said book she hasn't read.

                                          Or oh oh when someone at a party hears your specialty and then--despite having no actual background in it--starts lecturing you on your specialty based on what their dad said, or uncle, or a blog. It's hilarious to a point, but then it's just exhausting.
                                          Just no.
                                          It’s even more concerning that these people are lawyers.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X