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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by newtopicnewalter View Post

    Here's an alternative -

    Teach adults that sex with children and teens is wrong, and within a coaching or mentoring situation, especially wrong.

    Short, sweet, fits on a bumper sticker.

    Puts the responsibility on the adult actor, not a minor, not a parent, not bystanders.

    Just.don't.have.sex.with.minors.
    This is meant to be interpreted as sarcasm right?
    i mean, I don’t believe that young people should have to put in the driving seat on this issue or be put in a position of blame, but surely there can’t be many adults who don’t know that sex with minors is wrong?
    The people that do this are predators, they’ve got a ‘problem’, they get a buzz out of what they do, they have zero desire to self control their urges because they get pleasure out of exploiting young people for their own gratification.

    Comment


    • & the sad thing is.. what I’ve read about human trafficking & the dark web & exploitation of underage girls. It seems if these Predators can’t find an easy target, they will pay for one. Such evil in the world.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post

        Pedophiles can't simply be taught that sex with children is wrong. Pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder. Even with treatment, chemical castration, and medication, they sometimes can't stop. Some feel so terrible that they can't control themselves that they commit suicide.
        If they hide it and/or "feel so terrible", then they know it is wrong.
        Self-control or lack thereof is a separate issue.


        There is definitely merit in teaching children how not to become victims, especially since the general aggressor for a child would be said pedophile. We simply cannot rely on "Just.don't.have.sex.with.minors." when dealing with people with psychiatric disorders who are unable to control themselves. When I see posts like yours, I have to wonder why you and counter the idea of teaching children how to defend themselves when such people exist in this world?
        I suspect most of the trainers being spoken of on this thread would be able to exercise sufficient self-control if there were significant consequences to their actions. They wouldn't fit the pedophile profile.
        At this point, many of them seem to put sexual abuse with minors on the same level as stealing a doughnut from the box if nobody is watching.
        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

          If they hide it and/or "feel so terrible", then they know it is wrong.
          Self-control or lack thereof is a separate issue.



          I suspect most of the trainers being spoken of on this thread would be able to exercise sufficient self-control if there were significant consequences to their actions. They wouldn't fit the pedophile profile.
          At this point, many of them seem to put sexual abuse with minors on the same level as stealing a doughnut from the box if nobody is watching.
          Have you clinically diagnosed any of these trainers? I'm not sure I'd be so sure about your statement, but we can agree to disagree. One victim was a 13 year old in one of the cases. Sorry, but to compare that to "stealing a donut from the box" is significantly disparaging to that victim. Normal well adjusted men don't sexually assault 13 year old girls. Maladjusted ones do. With regards to RG, perhaps he was groomed by JW and that had an impact on his behavior, but all of this is speculation because unless either of us has clinically diagnosed any of these people, we really can't speak as to what the attraction is.

          And yes, they are AWARE in some cases of what they are doing, but they cannot CONTROL themselves.

          But back o the point, why are so many people so adamantly against educating children about inappropriate behavior from an adult? So many people have pointed out in various threads that the equestrian profession is ideal for a pedophile due to the large number of children participating. How can you be so sure that the people listed throughout these threads and who continue to abuse children are not, indeed, pedophiles?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post



            But back o the point, why are so many people so adamantly against educating children about inappropriate behavior from an adult? So many people have pointed out in various threads that the equestrian profession is ideal for a pedophile due to the large number of children participating. How can you be so sure that the people listed throughout these threads and who continue to abuse children are not, indeed, pedophiles?
            I don't think people are against educating children, nor have I see anyone say that. Children should be educated, most kids know what the adult is doing is wrong. Adults are and have been the problem. Adults need to step up and say something if they see something. It isn't about being a responsible parent. It isn't about teaching kid good touch/bad touch. These trainers groomed and manipulated minors, repeatedly. No one stood up for the kids.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post

              Have you clinically diagnosed any of these trainers? I'm not sure I'd be so sure about your statement, but we can agree to disagree. One victim was a 13 year old in one of the cases. Sorry, but to compare that to "stealing a donut from the box" is significantly disparaging to that victim. Normal well adjusted men don't sexually assault 13 year old girls. Maladjusted ones do. With regards to RG, perhaps he was groomed by JW and that had an impact on his behavior, but all of this is speculation because unless either of us has clinically diagnosed any of these people, we really can't speak as to what the attraction is.

              And yes, they are AWARE in some cases of what they are doing, but they cannot CONTROL themselves.

              But back o the point, why are so many people so adamantly against educating children about inappropriate behavior from an adult? So many people have pointed out in various threads that the equestrian profession is ideal for a pedophile due to the large number of children participating. How can you be so sure that the people listed throughout these threads and who continue to abuse children are not, indeed, pedophiles?
              I'm not against educating kids about what they can do to avoid being the one a sexual predator chooses as his prey. I just think that the implication that this is might be a solution of sorts is unethical since it hands the onus for preventing a crime to the person with the least power in the situation. IMO, the perpetrator and then by-standing adults, if not culture at large and the justice system, ought to be doing way more work to prevent sex crimes.

              Also, I don't think it's a super-awesome idea to, again, say to children, "Because pedophiles are dangerous to you and cannot control themselves, we'll do nothing to curtail their freedom but we advise you to be smart enough to evade them." Just How TF is that supposed to help a kid?

              It seems to me that this point of discussion gets to the heart of the misunderstanding about SafeSport's mission and the discussion of rights to some kind of fair legal process. The goal was to afford some basic protection to children while trying to be as fair, thorough and even-handed as possible toward alleged sex abusers. But I'm OK with putting the protection of the most vulnerable among us at the top of the priority list. And this particular group of "most vulnerable" has gotten mistreated at the hands of individuals, society and the justice system for a helluva long time. They are owed better.
              The armchair saddler
              Politically Pro-Cat

              Comment


              • Is there a Facebook group or any other formal forum of folks who stand behind Safesport in equestrianism? So far this is the least backlashy discussion I have found, which is astounding.

                Those rallying around George can be pretty traumatizing to those of us who have experienced this ourselves. I'm interested in joining / promoting a group so survivors know they aren't alone, but I'll make one if I need to.

                Comment


                • I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching kids that certain actions by adults are not OK and should be reported. BUT, the onus still needs to be on teaching ADULTS to take action when a child reports!! It's the sweep-it-under-the-rug culture in the adult world that needs to change.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Keep it Simple View Post

                    I don't think people are against educating children, nor have I see anyone say that. Children should be educated, most kids know what the adult is doing is wrong. Adults are and have been the problem. Adults need to step up and say something if they see something. It isn't about being a responsible parent. It isn't about teaching kid good touch/bad touch. These trainers groomed and manipulated minors, repeatedly. No one stood up for the kids.
                    absolutely. Educating children is necessary, but not sufficient.
                    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                    Comment


                    • I think the group is here. Never have I seen sure brave, well written truths. COTH proud
                      _\\]
                      -- * > hoopoe
                      Procrastinate NOW
                      Introverted Since 1957

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        My middle school age daughters have been taught since kindergarten by the school system ( private catholic school) all the SS requirements.
                        If fact, I was kinda confused when they got to middle school & started having to email in assignments... why I was on the email with them & the teacher. (This was new to me since computers weren’t used like this when I was in school. I honestly wouldn’t have had my guard up with kids emailing assignments to teachers.)
                        My daughters told me it was school rules & it was kinda a light bulb moment for me. Honestly, the school was ahead of my parenting skills & looking out for my children’s best interest.
                        The teachers have always been very professional & it has carried over in how we as a family expect other professionals in our girls lives to act. Trainers have always set up lesson & ride times thru me.
                        At this point, I think if a teacher or trainer called my girls for a one on one conversation, the girls would find it uncomfortably creepy.
                        The schools SS type rules was very educational for me & the girls & changed how I parented. SS, I feel will help educate parents, kids & trainers on what is appropriate & what is not. Hopefully kids & parents & trainers will say something if they see something. People need creep radars.

                        Comment


                        • Some "parents" are fine with letting their children be sexual exploited.

                          When was about 18, a friend of mine who also liked horses, had a boyfriend who knew a man who had a western boarding and training barn.

                          The boyfriend took us over there one day to look around.

                          The man who owned the barn was supposed to meet us but it took him a while to come to the gate and he looked very red in the face and very disheveled. He told us he had been giving someone a lesson and it had run over.

                          Then we see a very pretty young girl about 17 or so, come out of the barn and she also looks very red in the face and disheveled. She's not wearing riding apparel but short shorts a tank top, and Candies.

                          Boyfriend sees her and laughs and says.
                          "I wish she'd take lessons from me."

                          My friend asks him what he means , and he says matter of fact
                          "He lets her board for free and gives her lessons in exchange for favors."

                          My friend wants to know if her mother knows.

                          And he says "Sure, her mother is glad cause it's saving her a lot of money."

                          The man asked us both later if we wanted to take lessons.

                          That would be a big no.



                          "They'll be no butter in hell."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BigMama1

                            I will always believe that adults coercing or forcing kids into sexual relationships is wrong.
                            I think adults coercing adults into anything is wrong, too.

                            IMO, there's some of this behind kids getting sexually exploited. That's not easily identified or stopped by SafeSport, by the USEF or even by the justice system. But I think it's there.
                            The armchair saddler
                            Politically Pro-Cat

                            Comment


                            • (1) Parents need to teach their children, from the time they're old enough to understand, which actions by adults are normal and safe and which are never to be tolerated (red light!). ...

                              (2) Do not dump your kids off at the barn at 0800 and expect the management to entertain them for the next 10-12 hours. ...

                              (3) For the love of God, STOP sexualizing children. ...

                              (4) Get rid of social media for impressionable youth entirely. ...

                              (5) Raise your children with a sense of personal responsibility, which seems to have been replaced by "self esteem" and "activism."
                              My objection to this is that it puts ALL the responsibility on the parents and the children, and no responsibility on the abusers or other complicit adults.

                              Of course, parents should educate their children about appropriate behavior, and of course, parents should supervise their minor children.

                              But don't pretend that's an antidote for abuse! Larry Nasser victimized his students with parents in the room, and George Morris was frequently referred to, not entirely facetiously, as "God" or "God of the hunters" and that gave him tremendous latitude to abuse.

                              FWIW, I think it is worthwhile to make a distinction between pedophiles, who are exclusively sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children, and the type of opportunistic sexual predator who preys on post pubescents, not because they are exclusively attracted to partners of that age; but because they are easy prey. The power imbalance of coach/student or employer/employee comes into play here as well.

                              Individuals in the latter case, which are the majority of abusers in the sports world, can control themselves if the social sanction for the behavior is severe enough. Just like the incidence of quid pro quo sexual harassment in the corporate work world has diminished significantly now that people believe they can and will lose their jobs/careers over it.

                              There is a long history, detailed in this thread; of there being little or NO social sanction to the abusers/predators of teen athletes. Instead, there is victim shaming and blaming, excuses, minimizing, discounting. Not only has there been no social sanction, people will form groups to defend you, raise money for your legal defense, loudly deny evidence and misrepresent the accusations.

                              What needs to change is that the social sanction for preying on teen athletes and abusing their trust needs to be swift, sure, significant and universal. It needs to *hurt*, personally and professionally; not excused with a hundred different rationalizations. The abuser needs to become a social pariah. That will change the behavior.

                              If you would like an example of this type of social change, look at drunk/impaired driving 50 years ago versus now. The compulsion to abuse alcohol hasn't changed; but the willingness to get behind the wheel while impaired has - it is no longer socially acceptable and the sanction is severe enough it deters the behavior.
                              The plural of anecdote is not data.

                              Comment


                              • For the purposes of our discussion here, why not say that if a person's age is considered too immature to legally drink, vote, or serve in the military, then she or he is too immature for a sexual relationship with an adult.

                                When society decides that under 18 years old is fine to go into battle, vote, and have sex with adults, we can revisit the discussion. Until then, it's a case closed discussion. It's against the law.
                                "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                                Comment


                                • Back to the topic at hand...

                                  Is anyone else hearing rumors that TIEC took down the George Morris Arena sign and changed the name on their website? On the website I see it listed as Tryon Stadium Ring 5. Can anyone confirm or does anyone have more details?

                                  Sounds like a quiet change of tune since last week.

                                  Comment


                                  • I have no doubts George isn't sitting in a dark corner chewing his fingernails in worry, he's 100% at some wealthy benefactor's home as private trainer and honoured guest.


                                    I am "amused" though that Robert Dover seems to have deleted his public comments of support and moved everything to the Super Adventure Club pages
                                    Let me apologize in advance.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                                      I have no doubts George isn't sitting in a dark corner chewing his fingernails in worry, he's 100% at some wealthy benefactor's home as private trainer and honoured guest.


                                      I am "amused" though that Robert Dover seems to have deleted his public comments of support and moved everything to the Super Adventure Club pages
                                      In his book, GM talks about having breakdowns and periods of crippling anxiety and depression since he was a child, where he would barely leave his room.

                                      I don’t feel one bit of sympathy for him whatsoever - just pointing out that he may not be riding out the storm on some wealthy benefactor’s yacht.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post
                                        In his book, GM talks about having breakdowns and periods of crippling anxiety and depression since he was a child, where he would barely leave his room.

                                        I don’t feel one bit of sympathy for him whatsoever - just pointing out that he may not be riding out the storm on some wealthy benefactor’s yacht.
                                        If he was born in the late thirties, they have a lot more in the way of pharmaceutical help for anxiety and depression than they did when he was a child.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post
                                          In his book, GM talks about having breakdowns and periods of crippling anxiety and depression since he was a child, where he would barely leave his room.

                                          I don’t feel one bit of sympathy for him whatsoever...
                                          I do, because I wonder what led him to become an ephebophile. A gay boy growing up in a time when the closet door was still very firmly closed... you have to wonder whether he was abused himself when he was a child or a young man. Child abuse (whether mental, physical, or sexual) is far too often the gift that keeps on giving; all too many victims grow up to become abusers themselves. And in that time and place, there would literally have been nowhere a gay boy could have turned to report what was being done to him. Plus, living long enough to see his reputation in the sport and his legacy going down in flames has got to be painful (even if the demotion is well-deserved).

                                          But that doesn't mean I think GM should be given free rein to abuse others. It's too late to undo whatever may have been done to him as a child, but it's not too late to protect today's' youths. Who knows how many future GMs we're saving by getting abusers out of the sport?

                                          Comment

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