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  • A) we've already devoted the entirety of human history to placing the onus on victims not to get victimized...it hasn't worked

    b) I thought trainers absolutely had to be able to text and Facebook message children privately or their business would be in shambles?
    Let me apologize in advance.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
      A) we've already devoted the entirety of human history to placing the onus on victims not to get victimized...it hasn't worked

      b) I thought trainers absolutely had to be able to text and Facebook message children privately or their business would be in shambles?
      Amen to a and LOL at b.

      "Here are solutions specially chosen not because they have ever worked but because they do not inconvenience me in any way."

      It's good to know Facebook is to blame for sexual assaults of teenage boys 50 years ago.
      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
        A) we've already devoted the entirety of human history to placing the onus on victims not to get victimized...it hasn't worked

        b) I thought trainers absolutely had to be able to text and Facebook message children privately or their business would be in shambles?
        <<placing the onus on victims not to get victimized>>

        It's less probable you'll be hit by a train if you don't stand in the middle of the tracks, waving a "Vacancy!" flag.

        <<text and Facebook>>

        Never have used FB, and texting is a bane I actively avoid because it's a PITA. Both media invite exactly the type of over-familiarity that has the potential to cause problems. Regular voice phone makes misunderstandings less likely, with e-mail reserved for more serious business matters with clients. Again, I've never had juniors so non-issue, though I well realize for many they must use these platforms, and that's their choice.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by poltroon View Post

          Amen to a and LOL at b.

          "Here are solutions specially chosen not because they have ever worked but because they do not inconvenience me in any way."

          It's good to know Facebook is to blame for sexual assaults of teenage boys 50 years ago.
          Who's "trolling" now?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by poltroon View Post

            It's not that you won't win in court but that the cost to bring the case is significant, possibly as much as you are out or more, and then you still have to collect the judgement. There's also the cost of your time. Even small claims court - you'd probably have to take a couple of days off from work to bring the case.

            With housing, the amounts are larger and there are government agencies that have some nice bitey tools to quickly and easily bring bad actors in line in the most egregious cases. The lesser cases (you put a mark on the wall so I'm docking you $300) less so.




            Well, if you find yourself in this situation I wish you the best. IME everyone is professional when you move in, and about half the time, not so much when you move out. The only time moving out went well was when I was moving 600 miles away - the manager's attitude immediately went from frosty to pleased for me and helpful. Trying to correct the bad actors was too hard a problem for me.
            Well.... I think one month's board that we were bickering over would put us in Small Claims Court, so I'm good with that.

            Also, I read and discuss contracts before I sign them. If the BO and I both didn't trust each other, or agreed that we shared an understanding about how the last 30 days would go, I think I wouldn't move it.

            I have only had a BO start to let care go downhill toward the end of my 30 days' notice in 25 or so years of boarding. In this one case, it was a newbie to boarding with a private farm. She wanted to save on shavings so she let my horse's stall get really bad for the last day or so. And didn't send a bale of hay with him, as the barn he came from had sent a bale of hay for the transition. IMO, the BO was inexperienced and unprofessional. I will never again be anyone's first boarder. But otherwise, I really don't find myself in these situations, perhaps because I choose carefully in the beginning.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

              <<placing the onus on victims not to get victimized>>

              It's less probable you'll be hit by a train if you don't stand in the middle of the tracks, waving a "Vacancy!" flag.

              <<text and Facebook>>

              Never have used FB, and texting is a bane I actively avoid because it's a PITA. Both media invite exactly the type of over-familiarity that has the potential to cause problems. Regular voice phone makes misunderstandings less likely, with e-mail reserved for more serious business matters with clients. Again, I've never had juniors so non-issue, though I well realize for many they must use these platforms, and that's their choice.
              And when a child, woman, or man is cornered and forcibly sexually assaulted, by an adult male trainer or priest, whatever, is their fault because their parents spoiled them?
              You are SO cavalier in your attitude.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post
                Does anyone else just get a sick feeling now whenever people start going on about "due process"? Like, I'm sick of hearing that argument.
                "Due Process" is the "Benghazi! EMAILS!" of the horse world.

                Comment


                • Crashing Boar
                  Not everyone is blessed with perfect parents or role models to help them navigate their childhood. But EVERY child deserves to be protected from abuse by adults in positions of power. That’s why there are laws and regulations in place to protect them.

                  It takes a village, some would say. It’s not a concept unique to modern times.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                    Good post. I think it's necessary to acknowledge that there are many, many shades of gray here including battleship, flea-bitten and grulla! Here are the biggest problems I have with SS as things now stand:

                    (1) There should be a reasonable statute of limitations, perhaps corresponding to that in the judicial district where the alleged abuse took place. I've heard all the contrary arguments, but if there is no evidence of any improper activity in say the past 20 years, I'm not seeing any point in setting down elderly people for ancient history--all it does is open a window for people to weaponize SS for vindictive purposes. No child is being "protected" from George, or JW who's been dead a quarter century, now. The person way up thread who stated "It should be about moving FORWARD from here" was spot on.


                    Abuse is abuse, whether it happened last week for 50 years ago. People knew it was wrong and accepted it. People can argue age of consent, but not every 13, 14, 15 16 or 17 year old wanted sexual relations. Many resisted. Many said NO. Many went to adults. Many adults if told today would still look the other way.

                    New Jersey defines Consent as: According to New Jersey law, age, physical impairment and mental impairment all contribute to a person's ability to give consent. A person must be 16 years of age to legally consent to sexual activity. A person cannot give consent to sexual activity with someone who has "the duty to care" for them unless they are over the age of 18. Individuals that fall into "the duty to care" category would include parents or guardians, and those in any type of formal supervisory role. If individuals are at least 13 years old, but less than 16 years old they can legally consent to sexual activity with a partner who is not more than 4 years older than themselves.


                    Some of these cases are WITHIN the legal stature of limitations.

                    Hunterdon is in New Jersey. New Jersey has NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS on sexual assault.

                    N.J. Stat. Ann. 2C:1-6 No statute of limitations: murder, manslaughter, sexual assault, terrorism, widespread injury or damage....


                    As of December 1, NJ removed the civil statute of Limitations for civil charges. So regardless of when the Reporting Party said the abuse occurred, GM can still be charged. Barry Lobel is presently involved in a criminal case for sexual assault that occurred in the late 70's, early 80's.

                    Massachusetts Civil Statute of Limitations is 35 years tolled until the victim turns 18; therefore anyone abused by Mitch Steege has until they turn 53 to file a civil case.

                    Abuse in NY - Civil - now 55 years old. For one year, victims of childhood assault can press charges. It doesn't matter if it happened 100 years. ago.

                    So, those people arguing the cases are too far in the past, many are not; they are within the statute of limitations.
                    Last edited by Keep it Simple; Aug. 21, 2019, 09:00 PM. Reason: added paragraph on consent

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mvp View Post
                      But otherwise, I really don't find myself in these situations, perhaps because I choose carefully in the beginning.
                      Or, with all due respect, maybe you just got lucky.

                      The idea that nothing bad will happen to you if only you're careful and virtuous enough underlies a lot of American culture. Conversely, if something bad did happen to you, you must have been careless or otherwise be culpable. It's sometimes how we keep moving forward when bad things happen to other people and how we rationalize it can't happen to us. Because *we're* careful.

                      What a curiously interesting way these two tangents tied back together into the thread.
                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FlaxenChestnut View Post
                        Crashing Boar
                        Not everyone is blessed with perfect parents or role models to help them navigate their childhood. But EVERY child deserves to be protected from abuse by adults in positions of power. That’s why there are laws and regulations in place to protect them.

                        It takes a village, some would say. It’s not a concept unique to modern times.
                        Even if there were such a thing as perfect parents, their kids get sexually assaulted too.

                        And parents who never let the kids out of their sight? In another thread, those will be "helicopter parents" creating a doomed generation that is allegedly unable to think for themselves.
                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                          Or, with all due respect, maybe you just got lucky.

                          The idea that nothing bad will happen to you if only you're careful and virtuous enough underlies a lot of American culture. Conversely, if something bad did happen to you, you must have been careless or otherwise be culpable. It's sometimes how we keep moving forward when bad things happen to other people and how we rationalize it can't happen to us. Because *we're* careful.

                          What a curiously interesting way these two tangents tied back together into the thread.
                          For 25 years in four different states on both coasts? C'mon.

                          What I did do is always make sure I could afford middle-of-the-market, established barns.

                          And to be clear: I'm first in line to want all parts of our industry to be regulated. Check my posts on this thread and anywhere else on COTH. I think it's a huge mistake for paying customers to roll over and take it in the bum when they are cheated by horse professionals. I mean, if the horsey set can't afford to hold people accountable, then who can?
                          The armchair saddler
                          Politically Pro-Cat

                          Comment


                          • You all do know that Western society keeps extending childhood. The very idea of childhood as we think of it comes to us from the Victorians. The current thoughts are just one point on a very long historical scale which is, in large part, determined by the wealth of a society. We can AFFORD to set an extended childhood apart as a protected stage, but that is something that has come about in the last 150 years, and is pretty much limited to Western ideas. And Western ideas are not necessarily either better than any other ideas.


                            I suggest you all read this article: https://family.jrank.org/pages/232/C...Childhood.html

                            And this one. https://www.open.edu/openlearn/histo...ent-childhoods

                            Comment




                            • And the truth is sometimes kids do offer. They have crushes on their trainers, they idolize them. They compete to be picked out for favours and ride the best horses. With young kids, it's probably not sexual, no matter how it's perceived, but maybe with older teens, it is, maybe even on an overt level. But it's WRONG. And here's the thing - they can't consent. They're too young and 'real men' know that. Someone here is supposed to be a grownup. It's not their payoff. Trainers are getting paid - in money, prestige, pride in a job well done. But please - not in sexual exploitation of children. That's not part of the job description and anyone who thinks so should be in a different profession. [/QUOTE]

                              Tru dat. I had a huge crush on my swim coach. He was in college and I was 14-15. I totally would have given it up to him if he asked, because I was young and stupid and didn't have the capability of rational thought to know that it was wrong. I flirted with him, he shut it down. He was the adult, he knew better, it was the right thing, the only thing.

                              Comment


                              • tweaking up SS:

                                (1) Parents need to teach their children, from the time they're old enough to understand, which actions by adults are normal and safe and which are never to be tolerated (red light!). They need to have an escape plan, and to know they can ALWAYS bring even the slightest suspicion that someone's a "little off" to YOU--and YOU WILL BACK THEM UP. 50 years ago we didn't have that; today, we should. "Teach Your Children Well." Way more effective than having some 4th party adjudicate the thing 51 years after the incident.

                                (2) Do not dump your kids off at the barn at 0800 and expect the management to entertain them for the next 10-12 hours. If your child is old enough and competent enough for a working student arrangement, that should be in writing with SS protocols incorporated so everyone understands the deal. Parents should not otherwise use the stable as an unpaid babysitting service. Idle hands are the devil's workshop, and this eliminates opportunity to be "groomed" by any personnel not under direct supervision of trainer.

                                (3) For the love of God, STOP sexualizing children. The 12-year old daughter of two Yalies, one a clergyman, that I knew actually let their pubescent daughter run around in hot-pink tights with the word "JUICY!" embossed in rhinestones across the butt! A child doesn't know any better, but parents should. Maybe the promotion of 9-year-old "drag queens" and Jon-Benet Ramsey style dress-up/makeup is not a good choice. Let's stop promoting with our fashion dollars the "bimbo" culture and the idea that taking your clothes off for a camera lens, anyone's lens, is EVER a good idea. Steaming manure like the "Good Boys" movie just released is beyond appalling; one more example of Hollywood's race to the bottom of the muck-choked trough of so-called modern "culture." Go read a synopsis if you haven't yet heard of it, and protect your children from ideas like this that can't possibly end well.

                                (4) Get rid of social media for impressionable youth entirely. A flip-phone will do fine for emergencies and calling home.
                                Parents are enabling all the pathologies that accompany unfettered, 24/7 internet access. Most adults can't handle it, let alone youth.

                                (5) Raise your children with a sense of personal responsibility, which seems to have been replaced by "self esteem" and "activism." You will be judged by your actions in the world both good and bad, as GHM is being judged now. Use the current news cycle as a teaching moment, and do not make excuses for anyone.
                                Here's an alternative -

                                Teach adults that sex with children and teens is wrong, and within a coaching or mentoring situation, especially wrong.

                                Short, sweet, fits on a bumper sticker.

                                Puts the responsibility on the adult actor, not a minor, not a parent, not bystanders.

                                Just.don't.have.sex.with.minors.
                                Proud member of the Cackling Yentas!

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  I noticed the safe sport overhaul go fund me has seemed to fizzle out at $3.100 of the $25k goal. I guess the 7k ISWG fb people aren’t that supportive of the over haul idea.
                                  I noticed Elizabeth M donated some $.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                                    <<placing the onus on victims not to get victimized>>

                                    It's less probable you'll be hit by a train if you don't stand in the middle of the tracks, waving a "Vacancy!" flag.

                                    <<text and Facebook>>

                                    Never have used FB, and texting is a bane I actively avoid because it's a PITA. Both media invite exactly the type of over-familiarity that has the potential to cause problems. Regular voice phone makes misunderstandings less likely, with e-mail reserved for more serious business matters with clients. Again, I've never had juniors so non-issue, though I well realize for many they must use these platforms, and that's their choice.
                                    But no kid taking a riding lesson is "standing in the middle of the tracks" and the "vacancy" flag either makes no sense or is incredibly sexist.

                                    Which part of a kid being an athlete looks to you like signing up to be sexually exploited?
                                    The armchair saddler
                                    Politically Pro-Cat

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by newtopicnewalter View Post

                                      Here's an alternative -

                                      Teach adults that sex with children and teens is wrong, and within a coaching or mentoring situation, especially wrong.

                                      Short, sweet, fits on a bumper sticker.

                                      Puts the responsibility on the adult actor, not a minor, not a parent, not bystanders.

                                      Just.don't.have.sex.with.minors.
                                      Exactly. The responsibility should not be on the minor. Children/minors have spoken up and it was ignored, by adults. The adults that talked about it, knew it happened and did nothing. It is the worst kept secret in the equestrian community.

                                      Adults should not have sex with minors. Trainers should not have sex with their help/employees or their clients. It is unethical for doctors / lawyers/therapist to have sex with their clients, but equestrians do not want to be held to the same standard as other professions in the real world.

                                      Adults should step up and do the right thing. It was known in many barns that trainers were having sex with their students. The wives knew, the clients knew and they did nothing to stop it. These adults were a instrumental in allowing the abuse to continue. Stop blaming the minor or the parent. Blame the person that did the heinous act.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by newtopicnewalter View Post

                                        Here's an alternative -

                                        Teach adults that sex with children and teens is wrong, and within a coaching or mentoring situation, especially wrong.

                                        Short, sweet, fits on a bumper sticker.

                                        Puts the responsibility on the adult actor, not a minor, not a parent, not bystanders.

                                        Just.don't.have.sex.with.minors.
                                        Thank you

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by newtopicnewalter View Post

                                          Here's an alternative -

                                          Teach adults that sex with children and teens is wrong, and within a coaching or mentoring situation, especially wrong.

                                          Short, sweet, fits on a bumper sticker.

                                          Puts the responsibility on the adult actor, not a minor, not a parent, not bystanders.

                                          Just.don't.have.sex.with.minors.
                                          Pedophiles can't simply be taught that sex with children is wrong. Pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder. Even with treatment, chemical castration, and medication, they sometimes can't stop. Some feel so terrible that they can't control themselves that they commit suicide.

                                          Most treatments don't work to stop the pedophile's attraction to children. Even chemically castrated men have been known to be released from prison and go on to rape another child. Social norms don't allow us to simply lock afflicted individuals up, and they only get the limited restrictions of sexual offender status if they are caught and convicted. They are out and about in the world in search of their next victim.

                                          There is definitely merit in teaching children how not to become victims, especially since the general aggressor for a child would be said pedophile. We simply cannot rely on "Just.don't.have.sex.with.minors." when dealing with people with psychiatric disorders who are unable to control themselves. When I see posts like yours, I have to wonder why you and counter the idea of teaching children how to defend themselves when such people exist in this world?

                                          Comment

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