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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Does anyone else just get a sick feeling now whenever people start going on about "due process"? Like, I'm sick of hearing that argument.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Moesha View Post
      I find the double standards of some people so appalling. Many of the same people who are shouting "I stand with George" and screaming about due process and yelling it was 50 years ago...could have cared less about due process or evidence when it came to Brett Kavanaugh - the same people I see on Facebook and Twitter were yelling "we believe her" and "I stand with victims" Is this the society we have become?
      I don't see that at all. In fact I see quite the opposite. The same folks who don't believe victims don't believe victims.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mvp View Post

        Not true. I'm a landlord. A "security deposit" is held in order to pay for damages or repairs. It is not "security" against your tenant walking out with unpaid rent. "Last month's rent" is the money to be used as you describe.

        And the law is very, very clear on the fact that landlord's can't substitute one kind of money for the other. (Of course, the law is also clear on what a landlord has to do in order to keep the security deposit and when and how it has to be returned.)

        The point is that the lease is supposed to handle the problem of a renter leaving early; the security deposit is supposed to handle the problem of damages.

        So, yeah, those borders probably did read and follow their binding contract. Chances are, the BO did not.
        Is a boarding situation as cut-and-dried as an apartment rental, though? It isn't just the stall.
        Also, I've seen contracts that specify "first and last month's board."
        In that case, it seems entirely appropriate for that to be used as specified.
        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Alterforme View Post
          Did Paul V ever get actual criminal Charges or jail time for the horse killings & insurance fraud? Or did he just get a life ban from usef? Just curious, if he only received the usef ban, isn’t that kinda how SS works? I’m just trying to find a different example for the people that don’t understand SS.
          There were criminal charges.
          *****
          You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Alterforme View Post
            Did Paul V ever get actual criminal Charges or jail time for the horse killings & insurance fraud? Or did he just get a life ban from usef? Just curious, if he only received the usef ban, isn’t that kinda how SS works? I’m just trying to find a different example for the people that don’t understand SS.
            He cooperated, pled to three counts of wire fraud, and received a lighter sentence as a result of the cooperation/plea. But he is a convicted felon.
            ~Veronica
            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Moesha View Post
              I find the double standards of some people so appalling. Many of the same people who are shouting "I stand with George" and screaming about due process and yelling it was 50 years ago...could have cared less about due process or evidence when it came to Brett Kavanaugh - the same people I see on Facebook and Twitter were yelling "we believe her" and "I stand with victims" Is this the society we have become?
              So true. So very very true. I personally know people who fit this description to a T.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

                Is a boarding situation as cut-and-dried as an apartment rental, though? It isn't just the stall.
                Also, I've seen contracts that specify "first and last month's board."
                In that case, it seems entirely appropriate for that to be used as specified.
                If the term security deposit is used I would presume that all laws pertaining to security deposits would apply no matter if renting an apartment, a stall or a storage unit.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by roseymare View Post

                  I don't see that at all. In fact I see quite the opposite. The same folks who don't believe victims don't believe victims.
                  We have different experiences then - I have seen many horse people who are on the "I stand with George" page who have supposedly embraced the #metoo movement and post about it frequently and were standing with Christine Ford without question who are now standing with George Morris without question- I'm not sure how to show you that unless we have similar friends on facebook, social media etc- but many are trainers and riders and many well known. I'm not choosing sides just pointing out the blatant double standards I'm seeing.
                  "All life is precious"
                  Sophie Scholl

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by roseymare View Post
                    If the term security deposit is used I would presume that all laws pertaining to security deposits would apply no matter if renting an apartment, a stall or a storage unit.
                    No, there are different rules specific to human housing. In general, there are many more and specific protections for tenants around housing rentals, including legal obligations to keep deposit money available to return to the tenant. There are also specific government agencies that can help you fight a problem landlord.

                    A horse boarding agreement is just a contract and there are no special mechanisms to help you enforce it.

                    I am among the many who have been stiffed a deposit by a barn owner, and more than once. It's happened when I chose to move and it's happened when management chose our group to move. It's maddening.
                    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                    Comment


                    • (((((endlessclimb))))) I can tell you that at some point my "nightly" nightmares stopped - I pray they do for you as well.

                      Comment


                      • This is just like politics..... people pick a side, dig their heels in and plug their ears.

                        It seems like many that know and support GM don't want SS to go away; just want a better and fair process. And many that have been victimized or feel for all possible victims; want to be believed, listened to, heard and have a process to get help.

                        Looks like so many really want the same thing.


                        If you like the distance you see; continue forward. If you don't; stay still and the shorter distance works out. ~GM~

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tigre Horse View Post
                          (((((endlessclimb))))) I can tell you that at some point my "nightly" nightmares stopped - I pray they do for you as well.
                          endlessclimb - ditto. Thank you for sharing, and I am so sorry. All of these discussions and news stories are very triggering for many people. I hope you find a way through some of what it’s dredged up and get at least one more step forward on your healing journey. I know that’s what has happened for me this summer.

                          Take care of yourself.

                          Comment


                          • This seems so cut and dry to me. Pedophiles and Sexual Assaulters have no place in our sport - regardless of how long ago the incident(s) is/are proven to have occurred. GM has known this was coming for some time - he had his chance to disprove the allegation(s) - and could not. He now is simply arguing the penalty is too severe - not that he did not do the egregious acts. He has no right to be around our venues/events/people/horses. These are and should be the consequences of his perverted actions. Why would we want any different outcome? So odd to me that anyone would fight against this. And yes - there will be more to follow as there should be. If not our sport will die due to the pollution of the players and the tolerance of the participants.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
                              This is just like politics..... people pick a side, dig their heels in and plug their ears.

                              It seems like many that know and support GM don't want SS to go away; just want a better and fair process. And many that have been victimized or feel for all possible victims; want to be believed, listened to, heard and have a process to get help.

                              Looks like so many really want the same thing.

                              I think you are exactly right. If you ask them, pretty much everyone will agree that for any type of disciplinary or adjudicative proceeding, we want it to be fair. Pretty much everyone will also agree that we don't want sexual misconduct in horse sports or any other endeavor. So people have the same fundamental values.

                              Then it just becomes a technical argument over the specific procedures: Should cross-examination be permitted? Should there be any discovery? Should prior bad acts be allowed to show that it's more likely the accused committed this particular bad act? etc. etc.

                              These questions have been debated in various legal and administrative contexts forever, so it's no surprise they are being debated here. It's a question of where you choose to draw the line on the continuum of, on the one hand, increasing the chances of punishing every offender versus, on the other hand, avoiding inadvertently punishing a few innocent people.

                              Comment


                              • Really the jumpers are the only part of this that’s an Olympic discipline. Since there seems to be so much squabbling and bitching and moaning about safe sport and due process and all these other things that people just don’t seem to understand, why don’t the jumpers just split off and they can be under safe sport and whatever else in US EF and whatever and the hunters can split off and go do their own thing since they aren’t an Olympic discipline. I think to me that would probably send the loudest statement because the hunters are not governed by the Olympics.
                                Last edited by Jaegermonster; Aug. 21, 2019, 06:53 PM.
                                "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Jaegermonster View Post
                                  Really the jumpers are the only part of this that’s an Olympic discipline. Since there seems to be so much squabbling and bitching and moaning about safe sport and due process and all these other things that people just don’t seem to understand, why don’t the jumpers just split off and they can be under safe sport and whatever else in US EF and whatever and the hunters can split off and go do their own thing since they aren’t an Olympic discipline. I think to me that would probably send the loudest statement because the hunters are governed by the Olympics.
                                  The Hunters will always be under SafeSport. It is not just for Olympic Sports.

                                  I believe I posted this earlier, -
                                  Which non-NGB sport organizations are required to comply?

                                  Non-NGB sports organizations include those teams, leagues, camps, sports facilities, tournament hosts, churches, and schools that participate in interstate or international amateur athletic competitions, and whose membership includes any adult who is in regular contact with an amateur athlete who is a minor.

                                  https://www.sadlersports.com/new-saf...organizations/

                                  I would assume the show facility falls under within this definition as a sports facility.

                                  I also saw this on a YMCA website (bolding is mine)
                                  Safe Sport Act

                                  The Protecting Young Victims from Sexual Abuse and Safe Sport Authorization Act of 2017 was created in reaction to the abuse found various youth sports organizations, including USA Gymnastics. This act will create new a standard of care that will affect youth-serving organizations across the country. The purpose of the law is to expand existing mandated reporting laws to all youth sport organizations that participate in international or interstate sporting events. This has the potential to affect not only national governing bodies like USA Gymnastics, USA Swimming, and other Olympic sports, but the law will also impact camps, public and private schools, collegiate sports, country clubs, community organizations, and sport facilities.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by funnygirl View Post
                                    This seems so cut and dry to me. Pedophiles and Sexual Assaulters have no place in our sport - regardless of how long ago the incident(s) is/are proven to have occurred. GM has known this was coming for some time - he had his chance to disprove the allegation(s) - and could not. He now is simply arguing the penalty is too severe - not that he did not do the egregious acts. He has no right to be around our venues/events/people/horses. These are and should be the consequences of his perverted actions. Why would we want any different outcome? So odd to me that anyone would fight against this. And yes - there will be more to follow as there should be. If not our sport will die due to the pollution of the players and the tolerance of the participants.
                                    It is a complex emotional issue.

                                    People can and do turn their life around that have had drug, alcohol, sexual abuse issues etc. The focus to offer help for all would be beneficial. Saying that, people make their own choices and some choose not to get help or better their situation and there is no forcing them. If that is the case; this is where an organization can prohibit an offender.

                                    Establishing and enforcing well written regulations would be a good start..
                                    If you like the distance you see; continue forward. If you don't; stay still and the shorter distance works out. ~GM~

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
                                      This is just like politics..... people pick a side, dig their heels in and plug their ears.

                                      It seems like many that know and support GM don't want SS to go away; just want a better and fair process. And many that have been victimized or feel for all possible victims; want to be believed, listened to, heard and have a process to get help.

                                      Looks like so many really want the same thing.

                                      except the "better and fair process" they describe is in contrast to the pretend one they are making up: mich of what they are calling for is actually how safe sport functions.

                                      Except those who only want to adhere to findings in criminal court.

                                      One is a strawman, the other is demonstrably insufficient.
                                      Let me apologize in advance.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by doublesstable View Post

                                        It is a complex emotional issue.

                                        People can and do turn their life around that have had drug, alcohol, sexual abuse issues etc. The focus to offer help for all would be beneficial. Saying that, people make their own choices and some choose not to get help or better their situation and there is no forcing them. If that is the case; this is where an organization can prohibit an offender.

                                        Establishing and enforcing well written regulations would be a good start..
                                        Except pedophiles.

                                        I've sat down to dinner with psychiatrists and psychotherapists who have worked in the prison system and in private practice with sex offenders.

                                        They will all tell you that the only pedophiles who don't reoffend are the ones who got better at not getting caught.
                                        Let me apologize in advance.

                                        Comment


                                        • It seems to me there is more then just 2 sides to this argument.
                                          1. Those for SS
                                          2. Those that want changes to SS
                                          3. Those that stand with George.

                                          Comment

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