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    Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
    Yet people are contacting the barns of others inquiring about sponsorship status and IEA stuff.

    Informing someone of something factual is not grounds for a lawsuit, lying about her would be. I just found it interesting that the school district owns a massive high dollar farm, and the trainer has the gall to support a child molester in the face of it.

    I do think that people who are willing to put their name and livelihood on the line over a child molester should have some consequences. Maybe I'm wrong for that.

    Perhaps Serah, who is a poster on this board, can come comment on why she would change her profile picture at such a coincidental time, and how she feels about SafeSport and the GM sanction.
    What you're proposing to do is the equivalent of attacking an individual's livelihood because they are a Trump supporter. You are simply disagreeing with their beliefs and that's all it is in the eyes of the legal system. It might feel good to give them a right hook, but that can get you into trouble. The appropriate thing to do would be to simply leave her alone and keep an eye on her to see if she says something really inflammatory and stupid that clearly would get the local government's attention and make them renege on any business arrangement they have with her, for fear of liability or bad press. If she posts a multi-paragraph rant about how bad the idea of SafeSport is and openly describes kids or alleged victims of sexual abuse in a derogatory way that clearly shows no sympathy or a great degree of malice towards them, by all means, bring it to the attention of the local authorities and parents. Otherwise, leave her alone and simply let the parents that see her posts on Facebook, whose children she is responsible for, see her posted "beliefs" for what they are, so that they can do the work for you and pull their children away from her. If parents complain to the powers that be and it turns out that there have been reports in the past that she herself has been plundering the proverbial cookie jar, things will go farther and faster than an ear whisper from a nobody that can't hold them liable for something.

    As for Tom Navarro, he's a known factor because of his documented arrest and conviction in NY, so there is no grey area there and no chance of legal blow-back because he is a certified sex offender whose business focuses on providing services for the very same type of person who would be his victim. Anyone could openly argue - be it in a courtroom or a bathroom - that he has no business being in business, with children being the primary clients, BECAUSE of that and that people and businesses shouldn't be supporting or enabling him in any way. There's no defense at all for him in a legal battle, especially since he had himself removed from the offender registry in Virginia around the time he took over the farm and attempted to start his business, which clearly means that he doesn't want potential clients or the community-at-large to know about it. Most one-charge sex offenders like him don't bother doing that. As for the parents knowing, they might know or they might not, given the timeline of events surrounding his business and removal from the registry. Around here, parents of "activities kids" often don't give a damn about such things, so long as their child is happy/winning, but the added attention due to the current events might mean people are talking among themselves at shows and learning exactly what's what, so I'm sure it will sort itself out since people outside of his barns are fully aware of it now.
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!

    Comment


      Originally posted by LexInVA View Post

      What you're proposing to do is the equivalent of attacking an individual's livelihood because they are a Trump supporter. You are simply disagreeing with their beliefs and that's all it is in the eyes of the legal system. It might feel good to give them a right hook, but that can get you into trouble. The appropriate thing to do would be to simply leave her alone and keep an eye on her to see if she says something really inflammatory and stupid that clearly would get the local government's attention and make them renege on any business arrangement they have with her, for fear of liability or bad press. If she posts a multi-paragraph rant about how bad the idea of SafeSport is and openly describes kids or alleged victims of sexual abuse in a derogatory way that clearly shows no sympathy or a great degree of malice towards them, by all means, bring it to the attention of the local authorities and parents. Otherwise, leave her alone and simply let the parents that see her posts on Facebook, whose children she is responsible for, see her posted "beliefs" for what they are, so that they can do the work for you and pull their children away from her. If parents complain to the powers that be and it turns out that there have been reports in the past that she herself has been plundering the proverbial cookie jar, things will go farther and faster than an ear whisper from a nobody that can't hold them liable for something.

      As for Tom Navarro, he's a known factor because of his documented arrest and conviction in NY, so there is no grey area there and no chance of legal blow-back because he is a certified sex offender whose business focuses on providing services for the very same type of person who would be his victim. Anyone could openly argue - be it in a courtroom or a bathroom - that he has no business being in business, with children being the primary clients, BECAUSE of that and that people and businesses shouldn't be supporting or enabling him in any way. There's no defense at all for him in a legal battle, especially since he had himself removed from the offender registry in Virginia around the time he took over the farm and attempted to start his business, which clearly means that he doesn't want potential clients or the community-at-large to know about it. Most one-charge sex offenders like him don't bother doing that. As for the parents knowing, they might know or they might not, given the timeline of events surrounding his business and removal from the registry. Around here, parents of "activities kids" often don't give a damn about such things, so long as their child is happy/winning, but the added attention due to the current events might mean people are talking among themselves at shows and learning exactly what's what, so I'm sure it will sort itself out since people outside of his barns are fully aware of it now.
      While I totally agree with you, the two colored statements contradict one another. FWIW, I'm not reporting anything to anyone. I stay long and far away from "actual" drama if I can avoid it, which I succeed well in as I board at a small no-name barn, showing up places and quietly doing my thing and leaving.

      That said, I am also aware that my mindset of "whoaaa not going there nope nope nope" is how rumors and misdeeds go on and on and on, and when they finally get light shed on them, everyone says "well there were whispers for years!!"

      And, in the end, informing the owners of the property, which happens to be the Antioch SCHOOL DISTRICT, who have a larger vested interest in keeping children safe than just your run of the mill "property owner", that someone they lease to that holds numerous children related events is a child molester apologetic - is not, and could not be under any circumstances, even if they ended the lease, an actionable offense. Nothing about it is a lie, so what would the case even be about? It's neither libel nor slander. Done in poor taste, maybe. But not illegal.

      Comment


        Originally posted by ybiaw View Post

        I think (and correct me if I'm wrong, I've been off the forums for a while so the nuances and personalities are a bit rusty to me) that Laurie is making the point that it's ok to separate the impact he has had on the sport and the education of American riders from the heinous acts of abuse. It's ok to be shocked and sad about the allegations against someone you once respected as a horseman that resulted in his ban from the governing body and sport, but still to appreciate the education you received from that person.
        As a society, we really don't have a way for dealing with these instances. We're all muddling our way through it, and on more levels than just sexual misconduct.

        Some suggest the offenders should be erased from history, but that's just not possible. Like you point out, a person can be furious or disgusted by actions while still appreciating the positive contributions from that same individual.

        It's tough.
        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

        Comment


          Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

          The lessor can always opt to not renew the lease when it is up.
          That is working under the assumption that the lessor won't speak to the lessee when informed of lessee's open support of a (currently) alleged-and-not-convicted-by-the-legal-system child molester - no real ground to stand on at this time, unfortunately - and driving the lessee to get lawyers involved to see what and who precipitated the termination of the lease, thereby giving the lessee grounds for a legal battle after her lease is terminated. Assumption is the mother of all f***-ups and this would be a textbook backseat accident, as there are likely numerous court cases that cover such a scenario. There's plenty of ambulance-chaser type lawyers who would happily commit billable hours to a case that could result from the proposed actions and that only makes things worse, not better. If GM gets held legally accountable down the line and is found or pleads guilty in a court of law, there's some ground to stand on if the lessee still openly proclaims undying love and fealty to him and disparages SafeSport or abuse victims, giving clear proof that it's not a good idea to be in business with them.
          Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!

          Comment


            Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

            As a society, we really don't have a way for dealing with these instances. We're all muddling our way through it, and on more levels than just sexual misconduct.

            Some suggest the offenders should be erased from history, but that's just not possible. Like you point out, a person can be furious or disgusted by actions while still appreciating the positive contributions from that same individual.

            It's tough.
            Exactly.
            Adversity is the stone on which I sharpen my blade.

            Comment


              Well I will say this the GM PR machine is doing it's job. I was just told by to go to the ISWGM page to see the truth about how someone who is innocent has no "due process" or "proof". The horsey set is making fools of themselves over this.

              Comment


                So the position of the majority on this BB is that doxing and intimidation are useful tools? Shocking that the moderators think this is okay too.
                The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
                  Another local one. Serah Vogus' current facebook profile picture is her with GM. Here's an article about her...

                  https://www.dailyherald.com/submitte...creek-new-life

                  Perhaps the Antioch School District, who owns the barn she leases, would like to know of her support of him...
                  Seriously?? No. Just no.
                  *****
                  You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                    And, in the end, informing the owners of the property, which happens to be the Antioch SCHOOL DISTRICT, who have a larger vested interest in keeping children safe than just your run of the mill "property owner", that someone they lease to that holds numerous children related events is a child molester apologetic - is not, and could not be under any circumstances, even if they ended the lease, an actionable offense. Nothing about it is a lie, so what would the case even be about? It's neither libel nor slander. Done in poor taste, maybe. But not illegal.
                    You are playing right into their "anyone can file a claim and ruin your life" hand, please stop.

                    Posting a photo, in and of itself, is not a declaration of anything & definitely not an actionable offense that warrants pulling her lease.

                    Just like adjusting a student's leg position, in and of itself, is not an actionable offense that will get you banned from USEF, which is something I've found myself stating over & over again for weeks now.

                    Let's keep our focus on the real bad actors, shall we?
                    EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by chisamba View Post

                      Copied this minute from their slide show .

                      The main video screen in the George H. Morris Arena measures 16 feet x 28 feet and is supported by two 16-foot by 9-foot screens which that present live video, and replays, and sponsor promotions.
                      Someone upthread said Tryon Stadium is where the dressage & jumping were at WEG. The other arena is still George Morris.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
                        So the position of the majority on this BB is that doxing and intimidation are useful tools? Shocking that the moderators think this is okay too.
                        I find this statement highly ironic on a thread discussing George Morris.
                        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
                          So the position of the majority on this BB is that doxing and intimidation are useful tools? Shocking that the moderators think this is okay too.
                          Oh please. There are more people suggesting she is in the wrong than in the right. But you saddle up that drama llama if you think it's a good match.

                          You ought to consult a dictionary before you use the word "majority" again. It does not mean what you think it means.
                          *****
                          You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post
                            We may think it is the best or most effective way of riding, but at the top levels, it did not bring us a competitive edge to where we are always the country to beat. It's been around long enough that if his style was truly better than any other style, we'd be dominating at the top levels.
                            Other international riders are just consistently better at it and, to compare, we'd have to also examine training practices.



                            Comment


                              Originally posted by alicen View Post

                              Other international riders are just consistently better at it and, to compare, we'd have to also examine training practices.


                              I mean, yes, other riders are better, but not at "it" where it represents American style forward seat riding.

                              That was fitting for some in an era of big solid fences and hurdling courses, but much much less suitable to today's sport.
                              Let me apologize in advance.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

                                I mean, yes, other riders are better, but not at "it" where it represents American style forward seat riding.

                                That was fitting for some in an era of big solid fences and hurdling courses, but much much less suitable to today's sport.
                                I'd argue it was also way better suited to the self-propelled Thoroughbred, and not quite as effective on the less-motivated warmbloods that have dominated the last 30 years. Worth noting how many of our up & coming international riders are seeking their finishing education overseas now... and how low our fences have gotten to accommodate the American Forward Seat on a "kicking quiet" jr/am show horse.
                                EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by dags View Post

                                  I'd argue it was also way better suited to the self-propelled Thoroughbred, and not quite as effective on the less-motivated warmbloods that have dominated the last 30 years. Worth noting how many of our up & coming international riders are seeking their finishing education overseas now... and how low our fences have gotten to accommodate the American Forward Seat on a "kicking quiet" jr/am show horse.
                                  Absolutely
                                  Let me apologize in advance.

                                  Comment


                                    I think calling someone's landlord or other associates because they have a profile picture of themselves with GM is deeply inappropriate, especially right now in these early days. Give people some time to grieve, to come to terms, etc. If their own direct actions have not caused harm, that level of reaction is just not necessary; it's only harassment.

                                    If you choose to personally cut ties with them or communicate directly to them your concerns, that's different. But bothering a school when there's nothing actionable anyway benefits none of us.
                                    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                    Comment


                                      No question GM is one of the most important H/J trainers of his era, and in fact American riders did dominate in the 1980s especially, in the end of the TB jumper era. Nearly all of the riders who came of age and rode for USET at that time were his students.

                                      But the world has not stood still either, and the best of his teaching has been observed and incorporated by other trainers around the world, synthesizing it with their own. He's not a talisman for success; he's one person who has really an unmatched level of influence, both for good and bad most likely.

                                      Meredith Michaels Beerbaum, who has seen incredible success internationally, grew up riding with a GM protege in California, and rode with GM for a few years while in college before going off to Germany. She may be one of the best examples you'll find of blending expertise from these different schools into something that was better than either alone.

                                      Of course, it's also true that after his early years he also got some of the best students to work with. Success breeds success as it were.

                                      I think we can acknowledge his influence without condoning or excusing abusive behavior. And I would be the first to suggest he has been successful in spite of his abusive behavior, not because of it.
                                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by dags View Post

                                        I'd argue it was also way better suited to the self-propelled Thoroughbred, and not quite as effective on the less-motivated warmbloods that have dominated the last 30 years. Worth noting how many of our up & coming international riders are seeking their finishing education overseas now... and how low our fences have gotten to accommodate the American Forward Seat on a "kicking quiet" jr/am show horse.
                                        True that! The Porter brothers have come on loads with Jeroen D. It's good to train with different people anyway at least occasionally- I look at it how the academic community frowns on "academic incest" where you get all your degrees at the same place. (Maybe not true for all majors, but certainly engineering you're meant to at least do your PhD somewhere that isn't where you did your undergrad)

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                                          While I totally agree with you, the two colored statements contradict one another. FWIW, I'm not reporting anything to anyone. I stay long and far away from "actual" drama if I can avoid it, which I succeed well in as I board at a small no-name barn, showing up places and quietly doing my thing and leaving.

                                          That said, I am also aware that my mindset of "whoaaa not going there nope nope nope" is how rumors and misdeeds go on and on and on, and when they finally get light shed on them, everyone says "well there were whispers for years!!"

                                          And, in the end, informing the owners of the property, which happens to be the Antioch SCHOOL DISTRICT, who have a larger vested interest in keeping children safe than just your run of the mill "property owner", that someone they lease to that holds numerous children related events is a child molester apologetic - is not, and could not be under any circumstances, even if they ended the lease, an actionable offense. Nothing about it is a lie, so what would the case even be about? It's neither libel nor slander. Done in poor taste, maybe. But not illegal.
                                          Ok this is getting a little bit into crazy town.

                                          My cover photo on facebook has been a photo of me in a GM clinic where I'm jumping a jump and he's standing next to the standard. It's been up for years as a sign of the last time I had an opportunity to jump some relatively bigger sticks. I haven't been on the ISWG group and here I've only commented on the procedural and legal authority of SS. I've learned a lot from GM over the decades. I've also had him throw dirt at me, call me a dummy, and a bunch of other not so nice things. I also would not be entirely surprised if he loses his appeal but I don't have any personal knowledge of any facts one way or the other. I think it would be absolutely crazy if someone called my employer or the bar association to say well, she left the photo up so she must be a supporter of child molesters because of a 5 year old photo. I also have a signed photo with a personal note to me...should I burn that?

                                          There's a leap between that and saying I defend his actions. I mean, aside from the SS allegations, I never thought it was right of him to be such a bully, or to use some of the training methods he's used (while also being against any "gimmicks" or shortcuts...hypocritical much?). I was a star student at the clinic where the photo came from, and at that same clinic he was quite mean to a younger rider who was trying really hard but wasn't the most experienced and was a little over-horsed. He called her a baby repeatedly and made fun of her weight, got mad at her trainer for matching her with that horse, etc etc. She watched me in my session be the star student. Her trainer asked me to talk to her after the clinic. I told her that when I was her age, he threw dirt in my mouth (well, he missed and it went down my boot) and was mean to my horse and he can be just an awful person. I said to ignore all of that, but take in the actual substance of your lesson about your position and the importance of attention to detail, and effective use of aids, and work hard and you will succeed.

                                          Unlike most people who are speaking out in his favor (or who defend any predator where they only know the "good" side of the person), I can acknowledge that someone can be talented and intelligent and successful and also accept that they can simultaneously be a horrible person. If he loses his appeal, he certainly should remain banned.

                                          Comment

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