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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
    What I'm after is the source of that quote about threatening people, or their families, or bringing others down with him. I can't seem to find an original source.
    I think that was on The Chronicle of the Horse facebook page, fairly early on, but I can't find it now. If you have the time, 738 comments, here you go: https://www.facebook.com/search/top/...epa=SEARCH_BOX

    eta: or it was early ISFG facebook.
    Last edited by alicen; Aug. 15, 2019, 06:46 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

      Especially since he had been aware of the investigation for over a year, long enough to threaten potential witnesses and their families.
      I assume that threatening witnesses itself is a pretty serious SafeSport violation.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by greysfordays View Post
        I got invited to the ISWG group so while I'm not comfortable joining, I am comfortable spying (shady, I know).

        What I find striking is that virtually all of the posts of people talking about his helping them at Hunterdon, as a groom or trainer or rider whatever, they are all women.

        There's a lady who says she took lessons from George and never once did he do anything untoward. A (subsequently banned) person politely points out that George didn't swing that way. The next two comments furiously claim that is "UNCALLED FOR" and that her statement "doesn't have any baring on this conversation".

        When I read that, I feel like ok, I get why my telling people to read what's in the Safe Sport code isn't working. People are just not in a headspace to accept new information.

        My favorite post is a lady who would bring a rider to Hunterdon for lessons and spent lots of time taking notes of his lessons until he finally brought her into the ring to set jumps and learn from him from the ground. Great.

        Lots of other women chime in that his teaching at Hunterdon was central to their training and the last comment is "Just like Paul Valliere". ok dokee then.
        That was me who posted about which way the pendulum swings, as it were.
        and I wasnt banned. I was seeing what the page was all about and left on my own.
        A few months back during another heated discussion on fb about something else to do with SS I posted something along the lines of I wondered when anyone would investigate GHM, and maybe Frank Madden and some others. Of course I was vilified then too.

        does anyone know when GHMs appeal has to be filed?
        "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
          @ atl_hunter But as far as SS is concerned, the actual age of consent doesn't matter. They get to define a "child" as 18 because that's what the rules say and all they're doing is tossing someone out of a club, remember?

          If there's a civil or legal suit arising out of something SS turns up, then the legal age of consent will matter. At least that's my understanding.
          In going after GM, I think they would need the minor to be under the age of consent in the date at the time of the abuse. (16 in New Jersey in 1968). Post the introduction of SafeSport it will be 18 regardless of your state.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
            @ atl_hunter But as far as SS is concerned, the actual age of consent doesn't matter. They get to define a "child" as 18 because that's what the rules say and all they're doing is tossing someone out of a club, remember?

            If there's a civil or legal suit arising out of something SS turns up, then the legal age of consent will matter. At least that's my understanding.
            How can the Government tell a club what to do? And is a "National Governing Body" really just a club? I don't think so. I think there is more to this and I am not so sure they can just say the rules apply because we are a club when the rule is actually a federal regulation that is mandated is is and not merely a "club rule" as so many keep stating. The club only has the rule because the regulation requires them to do so.

            Think about it - pony club doesn't follow this, and that is an organization entirely of children. But hey it doesn't feed into an olympic sport directly so who cares about those kids? This isn't a law to protect children. It's a regulation to protect the USOC. Otherwise, this regulation would apply to all youth activities. How sad is it that the pony club or AQHA kid matters less than the USEF one? That is the real atrocity in all of this. Too many holes.

            You can agree to disagree but I think there is a lot of work to do on SS before it actually helps today's child athlete in a way that is not contradictory to federal and state jurisdiction . The courts will need to decide.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post

              How can the Government tell a club what to do? And is a "National Governing Body" really just a club? I don't think so. I think there is more to this and I am not so sure they can just say the rules apply because we are a club when the rule is actually a federal regulation that is mandated is is and not merely a "club rule" as so many keep stating. The club only has the rule because the regulation requires them to do so.

              Think about it - pony club doesn't follow this, and that is an organization entirely of children. But hey it doesn't feed into an olympic sport directly so who cares about those kids? This isn't a law to protect children. It's a regulation to protect the USOC. Otherwise, this regulation would apply to all youth activities. How sad is it that the pony club or AQHA kid matters less than the USEF one? That is the real atrocity in all of this. Too many holes.

              You can agree to disagree but I think there is a lot of work to do on SS before it actually helps today's child athlete in a way that is not contradictory to federal and state jurisdiction . The courts will need to decide.
              Many pony club kids are also USEF members. Yes Congress has to step in to regulate the National Governing Bodies of the various sports. Also, this law wasn’t enacted to protect every single kid. No law can protect everyone. I wish people would stop using this argument.

              The AQHA along with other associations have chosen not to be a part of USEF. You(g) too could choose to not be a member. Don’t like the rules? Don’t play in their sand box. Easy day.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                LexInVA VA

                I agree with you, especially about the cra-zee supporters.

                Also, if I were GM, I might hire a taster for my food at this point. I remember the Chicago era quite well. He's got dirt that goes back well beyond 30 years on just about everyone. I frankly don't believe that Epstein's guards just happened to be asleep when he decided to hang himself, for example. I hope SS is prepared for the tremendous pressure that might come into play.

                What I'm after is the source of that quote about threatening people, or their families, or bringing others down with him. I can't seem to find an original source.
                It was a public post by Kristin Hardin (yes, the person whose Facebook name includes several last names). I heard that she took it down. I just looked and couldn't find it. It referenced threats to her and family members (in-laws? former in-laws?) from GM and from a BNT who took the rap for George's drug infraction with AHSA/USEF.
                The Evil Chem Prof

                Comment


                • Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post


                  Think about it - pony club doesn't follow this, and that is an organization entirely of children. But hey it doesn't feed into an olympic sport directly so who cares about those kids?
                  Actually pony club does follow it. This is from their website:


                  *****NOTICE OF CHANGE TO MEMBER PROTECTION TRAINING - PLEASE READ BELOW*****

                  Pony Club is now accepting the U.S Center for SafeSport online training to fulfill the Member Protection Training requirement. For 2020, all individuals holding positions required to complete the Member Protection Training will need to have completed the SafeSportTM Trained course.

                  Safesport covers more than just those organizations involved in Olympic sports. I also found this:

                  Protecting Young Victims from Sexual Abuse and Safe Sport Authorization Act of 2017
                  There are additional and more specific requirements for several categories of youth sports providers listed as ‘Applicable Entity’ within the Bill. Those listed under this category include:
                  • National Governing Body (NGB) – Such as the United States Soccer Federation
                  • Amateur Sports Organization (sanctioned by NGB) – Such as your local State Association and Member Affiliates (town programs, clubs and leagues)
                  • Amateur Sports Organizations (NOT sanctioned by NGB) – Such as YMCA, Church Leagues, Municipal Leagues, Independent Recreation Leagues, Camps, all others

                  What about local clubs that don’t compete against international or out-of-state teams, does the Safe Sport Authorization Act still apply to them?

                  It does. Because you have adults working with youth. And even though you do not have an affiliation with a national governing body or do not have any international or interstate travel, the requirement still does say that you need to follow the Safe Sport act requirements, which include abuse awareness training and, the biggest change, which is the mandatory reporting aspect of it.

                  In a quick Google search of camps, clubs, I found this :
                  "In practice, for the vast majority of our customers, this law simply codifies what was already standard protocol. All staff, and all volunteers, have been expected to report red flag behaviors or signs of abuse. All staff, and all volunteers, have been expected to follow and enforce rules such as no alone time, no favoritism and no inappropriate touch. And all staff, and all volunteers, have been expected to take Child Sexual Abuse Prevention training."

                  The equestrian world is world is up in arms over what those in the real world consider to be "standard protocol". Does anyone see anything wrong with that?

                  Comment


                  • Thanks Peggy. I think GM has already done a good enough job out of his own mouth, I don't think we need to add things that may or may not be accurate.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post

                      How can the Government tell a club what to do? And is a "National Governing Body" really just a club? I don't think so. I think there is more to this and I am not so sure they can just say the rules apply because we are a club when the rule is actually a federal regulation that is mandated is is and not merely a "club rule" as so many keep stating. The club only has the rule because the regulation requires them to do so.

                      Think about it - pony club doesn't follow this, and that is an organization entirely of children. But hey it doesn't feed into an olympic sport directly so who cares about those kids? This isn't a law to protect children. It's a regulation to protect the USOC. Otherwise, this regulation would apply to all youth activities. How sad is it that the pony club or AQHA kid matters less than the USEF one? That is the real atrocity in all of this. Too many holes.

                      You can agree to disagree but I think there is a lot of work to do on SS before it actually helps today's child athlete in a way that is not contradictory to federal and state jurisdiction . The courts will need to decide.
                      Pony Club already has its version of MAAP and procedures around youth: https://www.ponyclub.org/Volunteers/Safety/Default.aspx

                      And yes, the SafeSport law actually does have provisions that apply to any interstate athletic organization that includes youth, and that is going to include USPC and AQHA whether they know it yet or not. They are obligated to have a policy for safe interactions with youth and training for adults who interact with youth.
                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jaegermonster View Post
                        does anyone know when GHMs appeal has to be filed?
                        He already has: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019/...strian-banned/

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Keep It Simple

                          ...Amateur Sports Organization (sanctioned by NGB) – Such as your local State Association and Member Affiliates...
                          Hm. Interesting. I wonder if this could be applied to non-USEF rated Horse show associations, like, say, the Virginia (or any state) Horse Show Association?
                          Last edited by dannyboy; Aug. 15, 2019, 08:17 PM. Reason: Edited because I was trying to get the cat off the keyboard and hit Post without attributing the qotation.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                            Originally posted by Keep It Simple


                            Hm. Interesting. I wonder if this could be applied to non-USEF rated Horse show associations, like, say, the Virginia (or any state) Horse Show Association?
                            It might, especially for local associations that are affiliates of USEF. Though they don't necessarily enforce USEF bans, at least about ten years ago. A USEF-banned, and fairly notorious, trainer showed up at the Orange County association's year-end show.
                            The Evil Chem Prof

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by alicen View Post
                              It doesn’t say anywhere in that article, from
                              August 6, that he has filed an appeal. It says it can be appealed. I’m curious how long does he have to file it and what happens once it has been filed?
                              "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jaegermonster View Post
                                It doesn’t say anywhere in that article, from
                                August 6, that he has filed an appeal. It says it can be appealed. I’m curious how long does he have to file it and what happens once it has been filed?
                                5 days, what happens during the appeal, I don't know.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Jaegermonster View Post

                                  It doesn’t say anywhere in that article, from
                                  August 6, that he has filed an appeal. It says it can be appealed. I’m curious how long does he have to file it and what happens once it has been filed?
                                  https://safesport.org/files/index/ta...ies-procedures

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post

                                    In going after GM, I think they would need the minor to be under the age of consent in the date at the time of the abuse. (16 in New Jersey in 1968). Post the introduction of SafeSport it will be 18 regardless of your state.
                                    No. Because they aren’t “going after” GHM. The accuser, minor or not at the time of the misconduct, has to file a claim, which is what gets an investigation rolling. They aren’t just out there silly nilly looking into the backgrounds of trainers.

                                    Age of consent is irrelevant when the accuser DID NOT CONSENT. It’s only relevant if someone is making a claim for statuatory rape.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by alicen View Post

                                      5 days, what happens during the appeal, I don't know.
                                      He has 5 days to say he is going to appeal. He does not have to present his case within 5 days. He can also file for extensions. Trust me - they get plenty of time ...

                                      Comment


                                      • Why are people obsessing over 'age of consent'? I'm a college professor, I teach people who are adults in all legal definitions, and I could still be hauled up on charges if I slept with an (over 18, obviously adult) student, because I was in a position of authority over them. The issue here isn't entirely "how old was this kid," it's largely about POWER. Yes, we obviously think banging 13 year olds is worse than banging 17 year olds (rightfully so, I suppose?), but to get hung up on whatever state's definition of "age of consent" is to miss the point by miles. IDGAF what New Jersey's AOC law was in the late 1960s, because I have no doubt Morris was abusing his position of authority, whatever age his victims happened to be.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Albion View Post
                                          Why are people obsessing over 'age of consent'? I'm a college professor, I teach people who are adults in all legal definitions, and I could still be hauled up on charges if I slept with an (over 18, obviously adult) student, because I was in a position of authority over them. The issue here isn't entirely "how old was this kid," it's largely about POWER. Yes, we obviously think banging 13 year olds is worse than banging 17 year olds (rightfully so, I suppose?), but to get hung up on whatever state's definition of "age of consent" is to miss the point by miles. IDGAF what New Jersey's AOC law was in the late 1960s, because I have no doubt Morris was abusing his position of authority, whatever age his victims happened to be.
                                          Excellent point!

                                          Comment

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