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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Here are a few studies about attitudes in the 90s (in particular) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...nalCode=hjsp20

    This one is really interesting, about the reasons that sexual abuse cases declined in the 90s - warning, it's inconclusive - https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7e0...05e7f78404.pdf

    And then of course, who could forget the McMartin case:
    https://www.amazon.com/Witch-Hunt-Na.../dp/0190465573

    "The failure to convict anyone in the McMartin case and a widely publicized appellate decision in New Jersey that freed an accused molester had turned the dominant narrative on its head. In the early 1990s, a new narrative with remarkable staying power emerged: the child sex abuse cases were symptomatic of a "moral panic" that had produced a witch hunt. A central claim in this new witch hunt narrative was that the children who testified were not reliable and easily swayed by prosecutorial suggestion. In time, the notion that child sex abuse was a product of sensationalized over-reporting and far less endemic than originally thought became the new common sense."

    There's a neat chart here that shows when cases began to ramp up - through the 80s:
    http://www.historyandpolicy.org/poli...buse-1918-1990

    "Sexual abuse was an even more sensitive issue, and was also treated with disbelief or resistance. Feminist consciousness raising groups had begun to give adults the opportunity to tell of childhood sexual abuse. Feminist campaigners presented child abuse as a subset of wider patterns of male violence towards women and children; Incest Survivors’ groups and Rape Crisis shelters demanded more sensitive treatment and aftercare for survivors of abuse. A British Medical Journal article charted the sharp rise of referrals for child sexual abuse in 1980s Leeds [Fig. 1], but still acknowledged that different welfare services had ‘inconsistent response[s] to sexual abuse, as few agencies have uniform procedures of management and coordination between agencies is poor.’

    While this seems like an academic exercise (and I am a nerd, please forgive me on that account - this whole thing started for me as a way of trying to understand why people dig in and defend the accused), it's interesting because it shows how recently it has been that we actually have taken any of this seriously. And it's absolutely wonderful that victims now have a way of reporting, that we can now penalize abusers, and that our society is FINALLY taking it seriously. It was definitely not always so.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by IdahoRider View Post
      They most often DON'T start with coercion and shame. That doesn't come until much later. These pedophiles start grooming their victims by making them feel special. It is a fact that many (perhaps even most?) survivors of long term sexual abuse had families that were dysfunctional to varying degrees. That dysfunction opened the child up to responding to being made to feel special in a very particular way. The pedophile can smell the "right" conditions a mile away.

      That is part of the grooming process. Pedophiles always have feelers out, probing and testing, evaluating. When a child's circumstances tick the boxes, the process becomes more targeted to that particular child. Is the family sufficiently distracted with divorce, illness, substance abuse, whatever? Is the child open to being singled out from their peers? Does the child fit the physical profile the pedophile wants?

      Believe me, if a pedophile's MO was to drag a child into a dark room and molest them the first time they met? The outcomes would be different. The vast majority don't operate that way. They pick their victims carefully. They carefully construct and guide the situation until eventually they are able to frame the sexual contact as an extension of how important that child is, how loved and protected they are by the abuser.

      The coercion and shaming doesn't start until the abuser starts to feel control of the situation slipping a little. And most often the "go to" method is shaming the victim. Nobody will believe you. You wanted me to touch you. You will get in trouble. Everyone will know you're a slut, know that you're a fag. You won't be special anymore. Pick your poison. And then they move on. The child has aged out of the pedophile's desired demographic. They get caught just enough for people to know that something "happened", but nobody wants to know what and they just want to bury it and walk away. Whatever. Things shift and another child is targeted and the grooming starts all over again.

      Keep in mind that the pedophile has hidden in plain sight. Larry Nassar, "I am doing a medical procedure. Only I can fix your child". George Morris, "Your child has talent and I can make it happen for them". My step-father, "God has called me to help this broken family and the daughter needs extra support and caring".

      These people, for the most part, aren't hiding their victims in the basement, behind a secret door. They marry our drug addled mothers. They dangle health and continued competition in front of children and parents. They insinuate that with extra "access" and training the Olympics is within reach.

      These monsters are right here, living in plain sight. They aren't driving up in an unfamiliar car and asking us if we want to help them find their lost puppy. They are the team doctor. They are the t-ball coach. They teach Sunday school. They are a best friend's parent. They are a legend in the sport we love. They eat dinner at our own kitchen table and wait until everyone is asleep. They are a fixture in our lives. They don't have to lure us. They are already in our lives.

      They minimize. They minimize. Every. Single. Day. They say their medical treatment is misunderstood. They say they were only trying to build on a talented rider. They say they were only checking to make sure a child was covered on a cold night.

      They groom us. They twist the world to make it look a certain way. Up is down and down is up. And they scare the shit out of us for the rest of our lives.

      And even though we are scared, and ashamed, we step forward and speak our truth. Some of us can say it and never waver again from those words being heard out loud. Some of us need to speak it and then take it back because the fear in our own minds is so overwhelming it might be another thirty years before we can speak the truth again. Some of us never say anything. Some of us use drugs and drink. Some of us become so anxiety ridden that we push ourselves to never, ever make a mistake about anything. Some of us turn around and abuse others. None of that changes the fact that we were hurt in an irreparable way when we were young and vulnerable.

      "F" George Morris. At this point the allegations have been investigated. He doesn't deserve to automatically be given the benefit of even more doubt. I am going to stand with the people who were strong enough to insist that they be heard. At last. Those are my people. They are my tribe.
      Sheilah
      This should be read by *everyone*....20 times. To the Katie Prudents who are saying "I rode with him everyday and never saw this, it didn't happen" - you're missing the point. This isn't done in front of a crowd or in the washrack for heaven's sake. It's careful and concealed and incredibly specific and intentional.

      IdahoRider Thank you for this post and for your bravery, and I'm so sorry you went through what you did.
      Jennifer Baas
      It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post

        . I am saying that back in those days, people didn't report because it was culturally accepted.
        And I am telling you one more time, that is false. Perhaps you do not understand the word "accept". Here is the appropriate section from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:
        "3a : to endure without protest or reaction
        b : to regard as proper, normal, or inevitable
        c : to recognize as true : believe "

        Perhaps 3a might apply if there were no protests or reactions. But there were reactions - teachers pulled, students pulled, complaints, prosecutions. At no time in my lifetime has society accepted teachers raping students without reactions. Geez.

        I have no idea why you need to believe what you keep claiming. However, I simply cannot let this nonsense be perpetuated.

        I also understand that you are not supporting GM or any of the other perps mentioned in this thread. We definitely can agree on that.

        Comment


        • Of course the anti-Safe Sport people only want court proceedings, since they know most of them are past the statute of limitations in many of the states.

          I read a few minutes ago that New York has 45 judges for the flood of cases they're expecting.
          You can't fix stupid-Ron White

          Comment


          • Virginia HM Wrote:

            "If he has managed to avoid HIV for so long, he should give his blood to science so they can find out why."

            I've wondered that for a long time. The odds against getting HIV with such exposure are so low.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by prairiewind2 View Post

              IT WAS NOT ACCEPTED. IT WAS NOT ACCEPTED. IT WAS NOT ACCEPTED. How often must I say this? I WAS THERE. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A TIME IN MY LIFE WHEN IT WAS ACCEPTED FOR TEACHERS TO RAPE UNDERAGE STUDENTS. Period. I have no idea where you lived, or even if you were a teenager 50 years ago. But where you lived must have been pretty bizarre.
              You are absolutely wrong. If not doing something to stop someone is not accepted, I don't know what is.

              When I was a teenager, there was a very well thought of horseman--ex cavalry, avid huntsman and whip--who had a day job and trained on the side. His place was a mecca for horsey kids. He had a pool table in his tackroom, lots of beverages and snacks, and a phonograph and tv also. He also had a predilection for teenaged girls under 18. Back then the age of consent for girls in that state was, IIRC, 14 or 15. He wasn't interested in girls younger than that.

              Thing was that most, if not all, of the horsey parents knew about his proclivities and their only action seemed to be to warn their girls of that age never to be alone with him. They never told kids not to go to his place, and they certainly never took any action with law enforcement. If that's not "accepted", I don't know what is.

              To make this not just rumor, I was at a horse show with another barn a hundred miles away from his home. He was there. It was night. He followed me into an empty horse trailer and, now I guess we'd say, assaulted me. But because I had been warned against him, I was able to protect myself, and I was old enough to do it. And, quite frankly, because I had been warned, I don't think that I was much affected by what he did. I also "accepted" it. I just treated it as any other unpleasant event with a male of my own age.

              I also think that you have a very broad definition of rape. The current president of France first took up with his current and only wife when he was a teenager and she was his teacher. Apparently that was also "accepted".
              Last edited by vineyridge; Aug. 14, 2019, 03:32 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post

                Number one is PATENTLY false from history. Absolutely false.

                To pretend otherwise is to miss our culpability as a society.

                I am NOT wanting any details from safe sport. I think safe sport is great. I think we should EXPAND the jurisdiction of safe sport.

                I'm NOT defending GM, JW, or RG.

                There have very definitely been changes in what is considered culturally accepted behavior between adults and minors. I am NOT saying that it was right. I am saying that back in those days, people didn't report because it was culturally accepted. Keeping something a secret does not equal not being culturally accepted. Things that were culturally accepted but some felt were wrong were gossiped and whispered about, not reported. That's the meaning of culturally accepted - they were swallowed up and whispered about, not prosecuted.
                I think you are bringing up some good points, but I'm going to twist what you said just a little bit.

                I don't think it was culturally accepted so much as what some other posters pointed out, more of a sense that women and children, especially young women, were property of (white) men. And yes, I think it's worth noting the difference in what a white dude could do, only to whispers and 'boys will be boys' versus what a man of color or a poor, low status man could do. Try that on for a moment and think about how these rules and laws were disproportionately used. And still are. It's not comfortable.

                Until the late 1970s, a woman needed her husband's permission to get a credit card. (A man, of course, did not need his wife's permission.)

                Women and children simply weren't full fledged people. And the shame and stigma of being a public victim made it super hard to fight that in all kinds of ways, even in standing up for victims and against abusers.

                Elite athletes too, especially young ones, end up becoming the property of their sport and their federation if they want to continue to play at the top. No one wants to be associated with scandal, especially when endorsements are key to their livelihood.

                SafeSport as a concept is exactly what we need - a third party who is not invested in our sport who can objectively look at the evidence and say, "this isn't okay." When you look at the other sports, and hear the stories about people who aren't our friends, and aren't our heroes, you see why they need it too.
                If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                Comment


                • When otherwise somewhat intelligent people defend clearly illogical positions, it's likely not because their position is logical. It's more likely that it's profitable.

                  Remember the outcry over capping the number of classes for Big Eq riders a few years ago? For the uninitiated, in the Maclay and other big eq divisions, it's the rider that qualifies for finals, not the horse. Why then do top riders continue to compete on different horses after they have qualified? Often they are showing a horse for sale on one of their working students and this is how the big name trainer makes his or her money. When USHJA proposed capping the number of classes a big eq rider could ride, there was a huge outcry from trainers and working students. Mary Babick, president of USHJA defended the cap through this statement: "What you do see is patterns of trainers utilizing the system," said Babick. "I'm sorry to put it this way, but basically what they do is prostitute their riders to make money for themselves. They're using the equitation system as a cash machine" to sell horses.

                  The resistance to any kind of regulation of the sport is based not just in defense of GM (who basically institutionalized the big eq economy as we know it today). It's made in defense of a system of unregulated child labor through which the trainer schools and sells horses. A spectrum of abuse of children may be facilitated by that system. The whole system needs to be regulated. It never has been. Of course, trainers and others benefiting are going to resist until the cows come home.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post

                    You are absolutely wrong. If not doing something to stop someone is not accepted, I don't know what is.
                    I by no means meant that there weren't predators and facilitators back then. Of course there were! Nor did I mean that everyone in society who knew about predators and victims did something about it. Of course they didn't! But societally, sexual predation by teachers of underaged students was not "accepted". Which is what was being claimed. That somehow the Greatest Generation "accepted" their children being raped and looked the other way while it happened.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by prairiewind2 View Post

                      And I am telling you one more time, that is false. Perhaps you do not understand the word "accept". Here is the appropriate section from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:
                      "3a : to endure without protest or reaction
                      b : to regard as proper, normal, or inevitable
                      c : to recognize as true : believe "

                      Perhaps 3a might apply if there were no protests or reactions. But there were reactions - teachers pulled, students pulled, complaints, prosecutions. At no time in my lifetime has society accepted teachers raping students without reactions. Geez.

                      I have no idea why you need to believe what you keep claiming. However, I simply cannot let this nonsense be perpetuated.

                      I also understand that you are not supporting GM or any of the other perps mentioned in this thread. We definitely can agree on that.
                      3a and 3c both applied in many many situations. Not post reporting, but prior to the reporting of misdeed.

                      Why I believe what I believe? The data supports it. The studies, cited above, support it.

                      Why I'm still arguing it despite your protestations to the contrary? Because it's the lack of reporting that hurt so many people and THAT was what was culturally accepted, therefore, the acts were tacitly culturally approved of. That may SUCK to hear if you were of age during that period, but it's the truth. There were many people who did not see those things as abuse - even though it met the legal definition, particularly where early-mid teens are concerned.

                      Heck, there are many people NOW who echo the same terminology ("witch hunt" sound familiar?) in their disbelief of victims of powerful people. That's CULTURE talking.

                      That teachers were prosecuted afterward has nothing to do with cultural acceptance. And of course, afterward, there were whispers and snickers, and a good many defenders.

                      I also want victims to understand that people didn't report or help them not because they (the victims) were not worth rescuing, but that times were different and there were those that didn't understand. It goes a long way toward healing the anger and reducing the shame that a victim feels. I know I felt for a very long time that I was somehow not worth people fighting for, and it helped me to realize that they were acculturated into believing what had happened to me was my fault - that it didn't really mean that they didn't care. They didn't know how to.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by prairiewind2 View Post

                        I by no means meant that there weren't predators and facilitators back then. Of course there were! Nor did I mean that everyone in society who knew about predators and victims did something about it. Of course they didn't! But societally, sexual predation by teachers of underaged students was not "accepted". Which is what was being claimed. That somehow the Greatest Generation "accepted" their children being raped and looked the other way while it happened.
                        They did. They absolutely did.

                        Otherwise we wouldn't need Safe Sport.

                        Otherwise Epstein wouldn't be a thing, and otherwise we wouldn't have the Me Too movement.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post

                          They did. They absolutely did.

                          Otherwise we wouldn't need Safe Sport.

                          Otherwise Epstein wouldn't be a thing, and otherwise we wouldn't have the Me Too movement.
                          I beg to disagree.

                          What I think is that the times were of more naive people.
                          Many didn't talk about things like medical diagnoses, or sexuality, so many cruised thru life without much of an understanding of all that you didn't talk about in polite society.
                          I am hard of hearing, so that went double for me.
                          People had to spell out what was going on that were just rumors and what those meant, that went over my head.
                          There were many in my same situation, not aware of all those things going on that were not right.

                          The difference with now is not that people were knowing exactly what was going on and accepted any of it, but that they were not sure of what all those undercurrents were.
                          Until now in the information age, where we get every topic hashed out in details that many require brain bleach.
                          We now have a clear idea of what all is out there and that it needs to stop.

                          I think that is where me-too and SS and any such today fits.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by HoolieB View Post
                            Frequent lurker, infrequent poster.

                            I admit that early on I thought due process was completely disregarded by SS and that suspensions and permanent ineligibility were assigned upon accusations being made. I questioned SS and its flagrant abuse of power. When GM was affected, I thought it went too far. So I got myself to the forum here and looked forward to reading like-minded posts. Heh.

                            At first I was confused and put off by the more, er, passionate posts defending SS and the process. I mean, GM was the Grand Poobah of all things hunter/jumper. (For reference, I do fancy-prancing. Badly.) How could H/J folks not be up in arms about this injustice, this ancient and spurious charge of hedonistic behavior? So I kept reading here. And a funny thing happened: I got educated on SS and the process. I was reminded that abuse of power in the form of sexual abuse and the damage inflicted on victims has no expiration date. No longer can I put my head in the sand and think SS sanctions are a result of so-called witch hunts. In short, I am deeply embarrassed at my first reaction to the GM sanctions.

                            Thank you to everyone here who took the time to present facts. It made a difference.
                            My heart absolutely breaks reading everyone's brave stories of how they encountered abuse. I think a lot of us feel this is such an important time to make space for those who have been afraid for years.

                            My mom says you can never go wrong with having compassion. I do have compassion for many of the professionals, who guided by misinformation, are really afraid right now. I don't think everyone who is responding negatively is afraid bc they are pedo's as well.

                            My question is how do we make it easy to get more HoolieB s (thank you for your terrific post!). How do we change the tide of fear and misinformation? I wholeheartedly agree that the sordid details need to be private. The victims have already been put through enough. But that plays into the hands of folks who are whipping everyone up into a frenzy.

                            Telling people to read whats on the SafeSport website is not working. I've spent the last few weeks doing that on FB and it is NOT getting through.

                            I don't know if it's going to require someone of stature walking people through the process or what. I felt like this was an opportunity for Robert Ridland to step up and he kind of played dodgeball with it. Beth Raisen's piece in the COTH this week is a good start, but not everyone reads the print edition.

                            Before these allegations, I myself was a big fan of both Rob Gage and George Morris bc I had great experiences with them. In reading these pages, I have also come to see the unbelievable destruction they wreaked in people's lives. I stand with SafeSport and I wish there were a way to reassure more folks that this is the medicine the sport really needs.

                            Comment


                            • I struggle with all of the arguments about what the age of consent was. Consent is not an automatic given just because someone is of a certain age. A person still must CONSENT to the activity-- which means acting free of duress or coercion. Even if the age of consent is 12 or 15 or whatever, can that person really be said to be able to consent to sexual contact or activity? Especially if the person wanting the sexual contact or activity is an adult, someone in a position of power or influence.

                              Just because an activity might be or have been legal does not make it right-- there is the oft commented situation of the legality of the atrocities committed in/durng Nazi Germany.

                              Just because someone is of legal age to consent to sexual contact or activity does not mean that they did consent. Whether their consent is valid in any given situation depends on that situation entirely.
                              A canter is a cure for every evil. ~Benjamin Disraeli

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post

                                You are absolutely wrong. If not doing something to stop someone is not accepted, I don't know what is.
                                You are absolutely wrong. People may not do something to stop someone for many reasons other than believing that the things they're doing are acceptable.

                                Power differential is a huge reason. Believing that there is nothing you can do to stop a person who has exponentially more power and wealth than you do.

                                Fear of physical harm.

                                Fear that speaking up against your child's well-connected, powerful, wealthy rapist will end up being worse for the child than the rape itself.

                                The only way to get people to speak up to "stop someone" is to eliminate the things that keep them silent. That's a big reason SafeSport's promise of anonymity is so important.


                                "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                                that's even remotely true."

                                Homer Simpson

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

                                  Directing us to Reddit and a thread filled with incels likely....gtfoh
                                  Oh come on Jealoushe, take the red pill! Lol

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by bip View Post

                                    Oh come on Jealoushe, take the red pill! Lol
                                    oh I prefer VOAT lol

                                    Just an observation, but on this thread alone we have, how many posters who were victims of abuse themselves?

                                    And people think it is really a stretch that these people are victims? Clearly, abuse is a lot more rampant than society would like us to believe.
                                    Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      I personally don’t think it was ever accepted....
                                      people just didn’t want to get involved. To point the finger at someone and accuse them of something, is not something people are comfortable doing.
                                      To cause conflict, causes anxiety. It was easier just to warn girls to “ stay away from that guy”.

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                                      • Originally posted by greysfordays
                                        Telling people to read whats on the SafeSport website is not working. I've spent the last few weeks doing that on FB and it is NOT getting through.

                                        I don't know if it's going to require someone of stature walking people through the process or what.

                                        I have a feeling it's going to take at least one BNT with the guts to stand up and say publicly that they unequivocally support SS and I don't think that's going to happen unless and until GM's appeal is denied and he's really, finally booted out.

                                        Can anyone think of someone of stature who wasn't named in GM's book as being a "dear friend to this day", a good friend with whom he did some fabulous horse deal or other, or at least someone he caroused with? I said somewhere up thread that I thought his book was intended as a warning to everyone as to just how far reaching his influence was and now I think I'm really believing that.

                                        Come to think of it, are there ANY BNTs, named in "the book" or not, who have come out with a solid statement in support of SafeSport?

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                                        • I think a lot of this is arguments about semantics.

                                          When I say "socially unacceptable," I am referring to the fact that society knew sexual interactions with minors (I'm going to stick to this topic) was wrong. Otherwise, why would we be having all these conversations about parents/adults ignoring it, and those sexually abusing minors doing it behind closed doors?

                                          To me, "socially acceptable" means that society on a whole agrees on a set of values, whether or not they do anything to protect and enforce these values.

                                          At no point in the past hundred years (and even beyond that), would someone admit in their social circles (outside "circles" of other abusers) or in public that they were sexually abusing minors. They KNEW it was wrong and they didn't flaunt it.

                                          That's why we have all these people defending George Morris by saying he's a nice guy, etc. He kept his proclivities behind closed doors. If it was "socially acceptable," he wouldn't need to hide it.

                                          Hiding a behavior or action is a clear indication that a person is doing something they interpret as socially unacceptable.

                                          Now that's my definition of the term, and it's fine if you feel differently. However, it's silly to go round and round telling people they are wrong because they don't define something as you do.

                                          With regard to how victims feel, I think we are overlooking the innate shame and embarrassment felt by victims that has nothing to do with society, now or then.

                                          I didn't understand it until I was sexually assaulted last year. I am in the most open, welcoming, and supportive environments someone could have both at home and at work. However, I still felt embarrassed and ashamed after the assault and debated whether to tell anyone.

                                          These feelings are just as important to consider because they are just as likely to keep people from coming forward and one more reason why we need to provide safety and privacy for victims who have come forward.

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