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Gunning Jumps

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  • Gunning Jumps

    Hi everyone,

    So I've had an issue with the past two horses I've rode and I'm getting mixed messages as to whether or not it's me or the horse causing the issue (I'm inclined to think it's me).

    The issue is that the closer we get to a jump, the faster we go to the point where we're just gunning jumps, almost recklessly and despite my efforts to half-halt.

    My previous trainer told me it's my issue and I'm inclined to agree because the closer I get to a jump the more amped I get and I'm assuming the horse feels my change in energy and in turn corresponds by getting excited and speeding up.

    My current trainer, however, says it's the horses fault and essentially he's getting excited as he knows a jump is coming up and so he picks up speed, regardless of how I'm feeling (it's her horse and I've only rode him twice so I don't have much to compare to).

    So my question, who's causing the change in speed as we approach a jump?

  • #2
    Without seeing some video it’s impossible to tell. Regardless of which one it is your trainer should be offering you some guidance about what to do about it. A horse that is becoming too forward, regardless of the perceived cause, is corrected by riding differently. It doesn’t really matter if you think you are exciting the horse or the horse is exciting itself. Improved riding will improve for the horse’s rhythm and stride.

    If I recall correctly, based off of an earlier post, you are pretty new to jumping, right? If that’s the case — please don’t take this the wrong way — you may simply lack the skill set to effectively half halt and maintain the rhythm of an excitable horse. Again, this kind of stuff is very nuanced and situation specific. What is your trainer telling you to do?

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      I've been jumping for nearly three years now, although not nearly enough as I should have been.

      These are the only two horses I've had this issue with thus far but I'm definitely "lacking the skill set to effectively half halt and maintain the rhythm of an excitable horse". I'm either half-halting too much and I break into a trot or I don't half halt enough and we just barrel over jumps (usually what happens).

      My current trainer is telling me to sit deep in the saddle, squeeze knees, keep shoulders back and give him a strong pull to reel him back. I just can't get it to the point where it's effective, it's either too much or not enough, very nuanced as you said.

      Comment


      • #4
        There are so many reasons why a horse might rush a fence.
        • The horse isn't properly trained or is green (does the horse do this with other riders or the trainer?)
        • Sitting "deep in the saddle" and squeezing is telling the horse "speed up"
        • The horse is anticipating the landing side of the fence (getting popped in the mouth with the bit or rider is landing on horses back with more force than the horse likes)
        • The horse is an anxious jumper (maybe doesn't like it or is remembering previous bad experiences or is jumping fences that are too high for the horses comfort level)
        • The horse is feeling riders anxiety/insecurities/uncertainty and is responding to their cues, even though the rider may not not realize they are telegraphing those feelings/emotions
        • The rider doesn't have all the flatwork skills yet to use their aides appropriately over fences and the horse is getting the wrong message(s)
        • The horse is sore somewhere, and jumping hurts
        Remember that an effective half-halt isn't just pulling on the reins - it involves your seat (including where your weight is centered), your legs, your hands and sometimes (when not in a show ring) your voice. Do your hands/arms/shoulders have a tendency to pop up as you're trying to slow down? If so, remember that your entire arm (hand included) is an extension of the reins - if your hands go up (instead of straight back towards your thigh), you loose the direct line from your elbow to the bit.

        You might have a friend or fellow rider take a video of you jumping, then watch the playback. Sometimes we don't feel like we're doing something when riding, but when we actually watch ourselves doing it, a light bulb comes on.
        ~~ How do you catch a loose horse? Make a noise like a carrot! - British Cavalry joke ~~

        Comment


        • #5
          I do find watching video of myself jumping extremely helpful.

          As 4LeafCloverFarm stated, there are MANY possible causes. When I'm stuck and not finding a solution to the problem, I try to back up a bit. It's only since I've started riding with a trainer who specializes in eventing that I've realized *just* how important flatwork is. Transitions between and within gaits, up and down, can really help you get a feel for rating your horse. Doesn't mean the horse won't rev up a bit jumping, but will give you better and more refined tools in your toolbox for dealing with the horse's excitement.

          Also, pole work is invaluable! It will help you work on strides and rating without the added excitement (for you and/or the horse) of jumping.

          Comment


          • #6
            I would definitely encourage you while you’re still learning to practice poles set on either an 11 or 12’ stride, depending on your horse. It sounds like you are struggling to gauge your tempo and these poles will fell you where you and be good target practice for you as well.

            One of of the most important part of the half halts too is the release. If you are sitting past the vertical and squeezing, you are very possibly driving the horse forward as well. The sensation should be more of a sinking than a sitting, hip angle closed to avoid driving, with weight in your heels and waiting with your shoulders tall. Counting can also be so super helpful. Over small jumps it never hurts to wait for that quiet one, but at the same time, you don’t want to pulllllllll all the way there if that makes sense.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by centaursam View Post
              I've been jumping for nearly three years now, although not nearly enough as I should have been.

              These are the only two horses I've had this issue with thus far but I'm definitely "lacking the skill set to effectively half halt and maintain the rhythm of an excitable horse". I'm either half-halting too much and I break into a trot or I don't half halt enough and we just barrel over jumps (usually what happens).

              My current trainer is telling me to sit deep in the saddle, squeeze knees, keep shoulders back and give him a strong pull to reel him back. I just can't get it to the point where it's effective, it's either too much or not enough, very nuanced as you said.
              You need another instructor. A half halt does not come from sitting back, squeezing knees, and giving a strong pull. No wonder the horse is gunning. That technique drives him forward, while you yank his head, so he goes hollow, and jumps in a panic.

              It comes from slowing your seat, closing your thighs, and closing lightly your fingers. You need flatwork to learn transitions within and between the gaits, best learned on an educated horse with you,sans reins, on the longe.
              Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

              Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

              Comment


              • #8
                This is one reason to try several trainers before settling on a new one. Communication is key, that includes the student understanding, some trainers are better at that then others.

                Far as the question, it’s probably you still at the “OMG a JUMP” phase we all go through and the horse picking up on it th8nking “ OMG my rider is scared/ excited too”, you’ll get over that. But it’s going to take more hours in the saddle and hundreds more low jumps until you think “ yawn...a jump...do I need gas on the way home”. Looking up at the horizon instead of the jump and counting strides concentrating on rhythm, not the jump, usually help too. Hope you are getting this advice.

                Credit you with knowing and understanding the halff halt even if your position is not strong enough to execute it and reflexes not fast enough to release the split second the horse complies. That might be frustrating to you now but there’s hope since you “get” the concept. Be surprised how many riders are clueless what it is let alone perfect it as a tool. There is a ray of light at the end of the tunnel for you and that’s probably due to the Dressage trainer you out grew.

                Also possible neither horse is exactly suitable for you right now too. Some get as frustrated with you as you do with them. Generally they aren’t used to teach the finer points of half hating on a jump course. Unless that’s all that’s available without half or full leasing.

                Again, keep shopping for a trainer. None are perfect but they need to fit you and where your riding is now for you to get stronger. And get out to watch others jumping around. Watch enough jumping, it gets boring and thafs what you want to train into your brain,

                Have to add most of us would prefer you find a trainer who teaches you that half half before putting you in front of a jump and telling you do half halt on a horse that isn’t going to help you out. We call that taking a joke. You need a horse that can take alot of jokes.


                When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                Comment


                • #9
                  My daughter used to ride a mare who was considered very well-behaved and a veteran show horse (in hunters) who soon began to rush jumps with her. Ultimately, after moving to a new trainer who actually rode the horse and was more perceptive than the old trainer, the diagnosis was that the mare was used to more experienced riders (generally adult ammies who had been riding 20+ years) who rode with more finesse. In particular, my daughter really had to work on the style and timing of her half-halts to keep the mare more relaxed.

                  It took months of work and there was quite a bit of improvement, though honestly I don't think the mare ever liked my daughter's style as much as the more experienced ammies she was used to.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by 4LeafCloverFarm View Post
                    There are so many reasons why a horse might rush a fence.
                    • The horse isn't properly trained or is green (does the horse do this with other riders or the trainer?)
                    • Sitting "deep in the saddle" and squeezing is telling the horse "speed up"
                    • The horse is anticipating the landing side of the fence (getting popped in the mouth with the bit or rider is landing on horses back with more force than the horse likes)
                    • The horse is an anxious jumper (maybe doesn't like it or is remembering previous bad experiences or is jumping fences that are too high for the horses comfort level)
                    • The horse is feeling riders anxiety/insecurities/uncertainty and is responding to their cues, even though the rider may not not realize they are telegraphing those feelings/emotions
                    • The rider doesn't have all the flatwork skills yet to use their aides appropriately over fences and the horse is getting the wrong message(s)
                    • The horse is sore somewhere, and jumping hurts
                    Could very well be a combination of all of these I know he does this with the trainer so it's not just me (or so she tells me), but seeing as I've had this issue with the prior horse I rode, I'm sure the blame is predominantly on me. I definitely need to get some video footage of my riding, I'll have my trainer film me during my next lesson.

                    Originally posted by greysfordays View Post
                    I would definitely encourage you while you’re still learning to practice poles set on either an 11 or 12’ stride, depending on your horse. It sounds like you are struggling to gauge your tempo and these poles will fell you where you and be good target practice for you as well.

                    One of of the most important part of the half halts too is the release. If you are sitting past the vertical and squeezing, you are very possibly driving the horse forward as well. The sensation should be more of a sinking than a sitting, hip angle closed to avoid driving, with weight in your heels and waiting with your shoulders tall. Counting can also be so super helpful. Over small jumps it never hurts to wait for that quiet one, but at the same time, you don’t want to pulllllllll all the way there if that makes sense.
                    With this new trainer we're just doing poles as of now and one really low cross rail. I'm having a hard time with body position in general, especially as it relates to half halting. I rode and taught motorcycle riding for many years so I have a tendency to lean forward a lot whenever I'm in a riding position, especially when the speed picks up. This makes for very lousy body positioning when I'm trying to execute a half halt since my torso is so forward. Previous trainer did mention sinking into the seat and keeping shoulders tall but how do I close my hip angle without squeezing?

                    Originally posted by findeight View Post
                    This is one reason to try several trainers before settling on a new one. Communication is key, that includes the student understanding, some trainers are better at that then others.

                    Far as the question, it’s probably you still at the “OMG a JUMP” phase we all go through and the horse picking up on it th8nking “ OMG my rider is scared/ excited too”, you’ll get over that. But it’s going to take more hours in the saddle and hundreds more low jumps until you think “ yawn...a jump...do I need gas on the way home”. Looking up at the horizon instead of the jump and counting strides concentrating on rhythm, not the jump, usually help too. Hope you are getting this advice.

                    Credit you with knowing and understanding the half halt even if your position is not strong enough to execute it and reflexes not fast enough to release the split second the horse complies. That might be frustrating to you now but there’s hope since you “get” the concept. Be surprised how many riders are clueless what it is let alone perfect it as a tool. There is a ray of light at the end of the tunnel for you and that’s probably due to the Dressage trainer you out grew.

                    Also possible neither horse is exactly suitable for you right now too. Some get as frustrated with you as you do with them. Generally they aren’t used to teach the finer points of half hating on a jump course. Unless that’s all that’s available without half or full leasing.

                    Again, keep shopping for a trainer. None are perfect but they need to fit you and where your riding is now for you to get stronger. And get out to watch others jumping around. Watch enough jumping, it gets boring and thats what you want to train into your brain,

                    Have to add most of us would prefer you find a trainer who teaches you that half half before putting you in front of a jump and telling you do half halt on a horse that isn’t going to help you out. We call that taking a joke. You need a horse that can take alot of jokes.
                    I'm definitely still shopping around for trainers so I haven't settled on one yet. I'm only three lessons in with this new one though so I want to at least give her a chance, although I wanted to start a thread on what exactly I should be looking for in a trainer. I know the personal qualities I like in a trainer, but I'm not exactly sure of the technical horsemanship skills I should be looking for.

                    You've summed up my "OMG a JUMP" feeling perfectly, with an emphasis on excitement. While I love the adrenaline rush, it doesn't exactly make for a graceful performance as you can see

                    Lot's of frustration for sure. Feels like I'm so behind and have so far to go. These are things I should have gotten down years ago, not still struggle with. I do watch jumping tournaments on YouTube quite a bit, been a while since I've seen one in person though, will make an effort to go to live events from now on.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      How to close your hip angle without squeezing? Do you mean, how to get into a forward seat without gripping with your calves? In two point, the weight goes down into your thighs and your heels sink down, but you are not keeping your balance by gripping with your calves or even gripping with your knees. You are keeping your balance by, well, keeping your balance. Think about riding bareback. You just sit there and the horse moves under you.

                      How do you do this? Building strength, building muscle memory, building correct technique.

                      it sounds like you would really benefit from some longe lessons, where you don't need to think about direction or speed, and you can really work your quads, two point/sitting trot and canter, with and then without stirrups. Honestly, it really does take more than two days a week in the saddle to build the strength and balance. Maybe even bareback longe lessons or a bareback pad and grab strap.Maybe even over cross poles eventually.

                      Until you have an independent seat, it is hard to use the aids effectively. If the stirrups or the reins are in anyway contributing to your sense of security in the saddle, it is harder to use the hands or the legs or indeed your weight to influence the horse.

                      Here is a random video of longe exercises, though I think that it is being demonstrated by a capable rider, not by an actual beginner!

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY3RWkG6Qk0

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        centaursam - how many days a week do you ride?
                        ~~ How do you catch a loose horse? Make a noise like a carrot! - British Cavalry joke ~~

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My first thought, based on you bringing up the horse sometimes breaking into a trot, is that you need more leg in tandem with your hands when giving your half halt. Additionally, it may help to not think of the half halt as a tool to slow down per say, but as a tool to "lift" the horse up. If the horse is rushing without a good half halt its most likely flat and not in a position to safely jump. You need to take that energy that's getting thrown forward and recycle it upward and then back towards the haunches. I struggle with this as well, but its a great feeling when you get it!
                          And also, don't forget to breathe.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Scribbler My previous trainer had me two point or in a light seat whenever I was in a jump lesson and cantering. I was hardly ever fully in the seat. This new trainer has me seated the entire time I'm cantering (not sure if this will change eventually, haven't had much ride time with her and we're only going over ground poles for the most part). Should I be fully seated, light seat, or in a two point as I'm doing all of this?

                            I suppose in whichever seat I should be in, how do I close my hip angle without squeezing my knees/groins? I get the shift in weight which causes the calves to sink and I understand what you mean by maintaining balance (more so core than legs). Two point always felt much more comfortable to me than the other seats, perhaps because of my tendency to lean forward.

                            I will definitely inquire about longe (lunge?) lessons!

                            4LeafCloverFarm I'm now riding 3 days a week. Once I settle on a trainer, I'm going to work on upping that to 4 days a week.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by centaursam View Post
                              Scribbler My previous trainer had me two point or in a light seat whenever I was in a jump lesson and cantering. I was hardly ever fully in the seat. This new trainer has me seated the entire time I'm cantering (not sure if this will change eventually, haven't had much ride time with her and we're only going over ground poles for the most part). Should I be fully seated, light seat, or in a two point as I'm doing all of this?

                              I suppose in whichever seat I should be in, how do I close my hip angle without squeezing my knees/groins? I get the shift in weight which causes the calves to sink and I understand what you mean by maintaining balance (more so core than legs). Two point always felt much more comfortable to me than the other seats, perhaps because of my tendency to lean forward.

                              I will definitely inquire about longe (lunge?) lessons!

                              4LeafCloverFarm I'm now riding 3 days a week. Once I settle on a trainer, I'm going to work on upping that to 4 days a week.
                              From every thing I read on COTH about hunter kids who never learn to sit the canter, its a good idea to have a strong foundation in sitting the canter before doing a light seat. Otherwise you can end up bracing against the stirrups. No reason not to sit the canter over poles.

                              Some trainers get their kiddies jumping earlier than they really should by putting them into exaggerated two point with crest release and let them grab mane over cross poles. But a really secure jumper seat is a following release, where your hand follows the mouth, and isbt braced on the neck. I think you learn that better working with poles and cross poles as just an extra big canter stride not a get forward and grab mane moment.

                              if you aren't sure what I mean Google crest release versus following release. The high end jumpers might choose a crest release in some situations for security but can all do a following release.

                              Some folks here on COTH report struggling with "pinching knees." I don't fully understand this problem as despite having many position problems I don't have that one

                              When I 2 point I really feel it in my thighs.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Scribbler In that case I need to work more on sitting canter than two point as I do have issues with stirrup bracing.

                                With regards to releases, I haven't had any issues with that. I think within the first few jump lessons I ever took I got left behind a few times when the horse went over so I got yanked forward, but that resolved itself quickly and going over jumps hasn't been an issue. My two point feels fairly secure and I feel much more comfortable in a two point than sitting, although I can't relate to feeling it in the thighs as you do

                                What I'm struggling with most right now is gauging and regulating speed in the final strides before a jump. This is where the half halt comes in, or in my case, not coming in. I was curious whether or not it was deficiencies in my seat that were causing that.

                                PerpetualLessonStudent My previous trainer did always mention "leg in tandem with hands" with respect to the half halt to prevent breaking into a trot. It makes sense as does the lifting up/collecting of the horse, but definitely something that takes finesse. It's a sweet spot I haven't been able to isolate yet.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by centaursam View Post
                                  With this new trainer we're just doing poles as of now and one really low cross rail. I'm having a hard time with body position in general, especially as it relates to half halting. I rode and taught motorcycle riding for many years so I have a tendency to lean forward a lot whenever I'm in a riding position, especially when the speed picks up. This makes for very lousy body positioning when I'm trying to execute a half halt since my torso is so forward. Previous trainer did mention sinking into the seat and keeping shoulders tall but how do I close my hip angle without squeezing?
                                  Close your hip angle by pushing your hips back, not by bringing your torso forward. The difference is in whether you are keeping your center of mass over your feet or not. Practice doing this at the halt and walk - someone described an exercise doing an extreme version of this in a thread a while back as "rider push-ups" - search for that because they're great! What you want to feel is that you can go through the whole range of motion with your hips and torso (and arms) without your lower leg substantially changing. A good-ish exercise on the ground to experiment with that range of motion is "horse riding stance" from kung fu. Seriously. The position is wrong in so many ways for a rider, but you definitely get a clear sense of how to position your hips and shoulders relative to your heels to keep the weight balanced over your feet. Something to experiment anyway. I'd imagine (not that I know anything about motorcycles) that you shouldn't think of the torso forward problem from your motorcycle riding as an isolated problem - were you also riding with your feet out somewhat behind you? It's the relationship between the two that matters.

                                  I've just gone through the process of remembering how to "hold" my horse, who can get strong when we're not jumping regularly, via "hands-free" half-halts, i.e. through weight, position, and core stability. Half (light) seat was a big part of the answer for us, but being able to maintain balance over your feet in this position is the key to being effective. Also worth mentioning that I'm primarily a dressage rider, and the horse is an eventer, so "full seat" for me is a *lot* more upright than typical for HJ, and very clearly a driving aid. My half seat may be closer to full seat for a proper HJ person.

                                  There is a deep-seated, legs on, half halt you can do, but it's used more on the back side of a jump and not in the approach, except maybe if you're trying to do corrective work (which you should be responsible for at this point in your riding) and are *well back* from the last few approach strides. In that half halt, you want to make sure your legs are also well back to support the hind end and help the horse sit, like in dressage. This was taught to me by a proficient jumper with a horse who tended to run on landing.

                                  Originally posted by centaursam View Post
                                  You've summed up my "OMG a JUMP" feeling perfectly, with an emphasis on excitement. While I love the adrenaline rush, it doesn't exactly make for a graceful performance as you can see
                                  Anticipating the jump will draw your torso (and hips) forward (ask me how I know...). What happens if you jump with your eyes closed? Can you let go of the anticipation and wait for the jump to come to you? Mental training is the hardest part of jumping IME...

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    strangewings I've attached a photo of a sportbike riding position (something like a Harley Davidson is completely different). The feet are generally behind you with your knee at an aggressive angle rather than being at 90 degrees with feet being flat under you. I tend to brace stirrups, however, and I need to work on getting my legs under me, they're usually more out front than back. I'm going to look into all the exercises you suggested.

                                    Funny you mention closing my eyes!!! I've experimented with this quite a bit but haven't really mentioned it to anyone as I assumed it would seem bizarre and incorrect. It definitely helps to close my eyes as I relax and let go of some of the anticipation which helps to slow things down, at least mentally. I'm not sure it if helps with my my half halt issues though haha.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I find that setting and maintaining a good rhythm out away from the jumps, and consciously maintaining that rhythm as we head toward a fence, has been helpful for my greenie who tends to get excited and try to run at the fence. Get a nice, rhythmic canter going and count, "one, two, one, two..." in rhythm with his strides (either out loud or in your head) and focus on maintaining that rhythm all the way to the jump. Plus, focusing on pace might help take some of the focus off the fence, keeping you more relaxed.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Oftentimes people will gun it at the jump because they are not carrying enough pace through the turn. Try to remember that you should have a canter where if you got a little deep or a little long, you wouldn’t feel like you needed to change the canter to be able to handle it.

                                        I had a very hot little mare who liked to make a big bid at the jumps and thinking to extend the canter for 2 strides into the turn and then just settle all the way to the jump (not slowing down, just keeping everything relaxed and supple) was one of the best ways to manage her.
                                        https://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628

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