Stallion Spotlight

Total Hope-11-18-09-3662

Real Estate Spotlight

DSC_0001
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

DD Crushed by pony sale gone bad!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Original Poster

    #21
    I appreciate everyones help....all this is very beneficial. Please keep the suggestions coming. Thank you all so very much.

    Comment


    • #22
      I think it's hard to make a case that selling the pony out of state was upsetting because you were perfectly willing to sell the pony out of state at the start. The dirty business is the trainer lying to you, buying him cheap, and reselling.

      Comment


      • #23
        ....and that's what happens when you blindly trust someone who may not make a ton of money outside selling horses to sell a horse (for potentially more than the agent's annual salary) for you. I always like to meet potential buyers regardless of the commission I'm paying trainers, so that I'm directly involved in negotiations and can build rapport in the event the trainer tries to cheat one of us. Then it's no problem to say "Hey Buyer I just wanted to check that we agreed to $X for horse and that's what you paid?"

        If you have in writing anywhere (text, email) that you were agreeing to reduced price for certain terms, which were then violated... you would have a case for a refund and return of pony. Even better if you can prove how much the buyers paid for the pony vs. your original and reduced price based on Trainer/Agent's advice. I would report the trainer to the USHJA because they have some specific by-laws in regards to those acting as an agent for sellers and buyers.

        Comment


        • #24
          Being an agent brings with it a fiduciary duty, this is regardless of contractual terms. A fiduciary has a duty of loyalty to the client and cannot enter into a deal that is to the detriment of the client and benefit of the agent. This doesn’t seem like a tough one to me, nor that it’s necessary to dig into the contract’s terms. In the very deal where the agent acted on behalf of the client, the agent acted to make herself more money and to deprive the client of that money which would otherwise be the client’s. This is pretty much the hypo that appears in the law school textbook... literally, this is the plain vanilla example of breach of fiduciary duty.
          Last edited by vxf111; Jul. 5, 2019, 10:19 AM. Reason: spelling, dumb iPad
          ~Veronica
          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

          Comment


          • #25
            Bringing DDs hurt feelings into it to influence jury and prosecutor assumes there will be jury and prosecutor. More likely to be be a civil case in your state with just a judge.

            Did you have a written contract with trainer specifically for her agency in the sale of this Pony? Or is it generally covered in her basic board and training contract like “trainer gets 15% for assisting in marketing your horse”?
            When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

            The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

            Comment


            • #26
              Well I get the financial aspect and that the trainer acted pretty shady. I get the child is upset about the sale of her pony, but did child know pony was for sale? What would've happened if the now buyer had bought the horse originally from you- wasn't it still going to be taken away? If the OP is so upset about child being heartbroken, why was the pony for sale in the first place?

              I also agree that if OP has a good documented trail of what happened - buyer says no, trainer buys, then trainer sells to buyer at more money, and depending on contract- I'd sue in small claims court for whatever the highest amount is - is it still $5,000? Or if OP has some sort of EAP/Legal plan thru her job or the father's job maybe they can get inexpensive legal assistance that way. I would not be intimidated by the trainer's lawyer father, they're using that as a defensive tactic.

              Comment


              • #27
                This sounds terrible. I would definitely get in touch with USHJA as they certainly don't need threads like this with "USHJA Certified Trainer" in the first line.

                That said, I'm not sure I see as clear a path through the court system as others do, but I could definitely be missing something.

                OP, did you have an agency contract with the trainer? Or just a "Bill of Sale" for the pony?

                You did not pay the trainer a commission, correct?

                The trainer paid you for the pony? Regardless of amount.

                From how it sounds, the pony was sold, and the usual COTH mantra is once you sell the pony you cannot control what happens to it or where it goes. Even the age-old "First right of refusal" is hard to actually enforce, but it gives us the warm fuzzies to include it.

                Remove newbie trusting parents, cute pony, and depressed child from the situation and it's basically like going to the track, buying a TB for $1500, and flipping it for $3K two days later.

                If there is no agency contract and instead only a BOS, and if the OP never paid the trainer a commission and in fact was paid the agreed upon price by the trainer, well it's certainly crappy ethical behavior but not sure it's criminal. That the reasons for agreeing to the lower price were bogus is, I fear, irrelevant if there is no signed agency contract or commission paid...?
                EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                Comment


                • #28
                  I wonder if this is something that fits within the realm of Safe Sport? It is certainly dishonest. It involves a recognized trainer. I think thievery should count too.
                  Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                  Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by merrygoround View Post
                    I wonder if this is something that fits within the realm of Safe Sport? It is certainly dishonest. It involves a recognized trainer. I think thievery should count too.
                    Not in any way a Safe Sport issue.
                    *****
                    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by dags View Post
                      This sounds terrible. I would definitely get in touch with USHJA as they certainly don't need threads like this with "USHJA Certified Trainer" in the first line.

                      That said, I'm not sure I see as clear a path through the court system as others do, but I could definitely be missing something.

                      OP, did you have an agency contract with the trainer? Or just a "Bill of Sale" for the pony?

                      You did not pay the trainer a commission, correct?

                      The trainer paid you for the pony? Regardless of amount.

                      From how it sounds, the pony was sold, and the usual COTH mantra is once you sell the pony you cannot control what happens to it or where it goes. Even the age-old "First right of refusal" is hard to actually enforce, but it gives us the warm fuzzies to include it.

                      Remove newbie trusting parents, cute pony, and depressed child from the situation and it's basically like going to the track, buying a TB for $1500, and flipping it for $3K two days later.

                      If there is no agency contract and instead only a BOS, and if the OP never paid the trainer a commission and in fact was paid the agreed upon price by the trainer, well it's certainly crappy ethical behavior but not sure it's criminal. That the reasons for agreeing to the lower price were bogus is, I fear, irrelevant if there is no signed agency contract or commission paid...?
                      Does there have to be an agency contract when the party is acting as an agent? Obviously it is best but is it required after said person has actually started the process of being an agent?

                      I suppose they could just argue they were helping but how do you rectify that with selling to the same party that the facillitated to the owner?

                      That you believe it ok is a problem in the horse industry and is the reason the TB racing industry took this issue head on years ago.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by dags View Post
                        This sounds terrible. I would definitely get in touch with USHJA as they certainly don't need threads like this with "USHJA Certified Trainer" in the first line.

                        That said, I'm not sure I see as clear a path through the court system as others do, but I could definitely be missing something.

                        OP, did you have an agency contract with the trainer? Or just a "Bill of Sale" for the pony?

                        You did not pay the trainer a commission, correct?

                        The trainer paid you for the pony? Regardless of amount.

                        From how it sounds, the pony was sold, and the usual COTH mantra is once you sell the pony you cannot control what happens to it or where it goes. Even the age-old "First right of refusal" is hard to actually enforce, but it gives us the warm fuzzies to include it.

                        Remove newbie trusting parents, cute pony, and depressed child from the situation and it's basically like going to the track, buying a TB for $1500, and flipping it for $3K two days later.

                        If there is no agency contract and instead only a BOS, and if the OP never paid the trainer a commission and in fact was paid the agreed upon price by the trainer, well it's certainly crappy ethical behavior but not sure it's criminal. That the reasons for agreeing to the lower price were bogus is, I fear, irrelevant if there is no signed agency contract or commission paid...?
                        That was my general thought as well. There's technically no a breech of contract unless the OP had 1) some signed agreement of agency with the trainer. 2) written stipulation in the BOS stating that the pony was to remain in the trainer's barn and available for the child's use.

                        That said, if things went down as the OP says they did? That trainer is shady af and deserves extra-legal censure. With the price of a decent pony hunter these days, I'm guessing it was not an insignificant amount of $ involved. I'm a sweet, gentle, shanti-chanting yoga teacher person. But if you're an adult and you cross one of my kids like that? You're going to meet rabid momma emu Wanderosa real fast.

                        eta: I substitute teach in a local school district. The contract stipulates that we refrain from "conduct unbecoming" to an individual working with children. Yes, you can get fired by the district for doing something along the lines of this trainer. (Aka - a deal that may be legal but most would consider a dirty trick.) If I take OP's account of events as accurate this trainer shouldn't be allowed within a mile of children.
                        Last edited by Wanderosa; Jul. 5, 2019, 11:41 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I really think there are two separate issues here and they are getting muddied together which is not helping your situation, OP.

                          The main problem is your trainer was dirty in the transaction that involved selling this pony.
                          They were working as your agent (written contract or not). Told you that the buyer fell thru (or was not interested), used that as leverage to have you sell them the pony at a lower price and then they turned around and sold the pony to the buyer who had been interested all along.
                          The secondary problem is that your daughter is crushed that her pony is gone. Which would have been the case if this same buyer had bought straight from you.

                          I can understand why the buyer does not want to communicate with you any further. They bought a pony who the owner is now saying they can't buy because their daughter is crushed.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            That sounds like a really dirty deal. I would certainly consult a lawyer. I agree with others that you need to focus on the unethical behavior and not on the "crushed feelings" of your daughter as painful as this is.

                            I would ask this lawyer how to "out" this trainer properly. I'm not sure where you can name names without getting in trouble but you need to if you can.

                            You also need to contact USHJA if this trainer is certified and find out how to make a formal complaint there. Seems to me that the specter of bad publicity would convince this trainer to make things right.

                            I would get all my ducks in a row and then I would contact trainer and inform them that x, y and z will happen unless they do "a". End of story.
                            http://patchworkfarmga.com

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I’m a trainer. It’s embarrassing to me and an insult to my profession that this sort of thing EVER happens. I don’t understand how some of the posters have essentially defended the trainer by stating that “the pony was sold, you accepted money, it’s a done deal.”

                              the trainer has a fiduciary DUTY to their client, she told the client that the people who bought the pony from her bought the pony were NOT INTERESTED.
                              This is a huge conflict of interest. Absolutely NOT THE SAME as buying a pony, then flipping it at a profit, regardless of a verbal agreement to keep the pony where DD could ride it.

                              Do pursue this, OP. Spread the word that this trainer is a cheat.
                              Contact USHJA today.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Actual lawyer here. There’s some well meaning but not entirely correct/muddled advice here. BOFD is a tort. OP consult a lawyer in your state or PM me if you need a reference in PA/NJ. If what happened is exactly as you say, you’re describing a problem with a potential civil cause of action
                                ~Veronica
                                "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Oh COTH...

                                  NOT defending trainer. Discussing whether there is actual legal recourse that won't just drain OP's bank account is NOT defending the trainer. Trainer sounds like a real piece of work and I already suggested this be pursued through USHJA if the courts cannot help her.

                                  Could we perhaps talk about issues around here without casting about personal judgments on our fellow forum users?

                                  vxf111 I appreciate your educated & professional insight. Could you elaborate on "BOFD is a tort?" Just want to understand what act(?), in lieu of a document(?), binds the agency. This kind of thread has potential to be helpful for anyone trying to pursue actions against a fraudulent agent.
                                  EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Does anyone know the usef rule about sales and agency relationships that someone mentioned?

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Actually, I had totally forgotten, but when the MAAP email came out from USEF/Murray (5/22) waaaay down at the bottom was an announcement about the achievements of the new task forces:


                                      Special Task Forces:

                                      Last year, USEF created three special task forces to address major issues in equestrian sport. Here are some of their accomplishments:

                                      Equine Transaction Task Force

                                      The task force created and launched the new USEF Equine Transaction Packet, which is a resource for all parties to a transaction. The packet includes information about costs, an advisory team, the purchasing/leasing process, insurance, commissions, and transaction law, as well as major pitfalls to avoid. Our next step is to provide information on the topics that should be included in transaction documents such as a Purchase/Lease Agreement, Agent Disclosure Agreement, Pre-Purchase Trial Agreement, and Bill of Sale.
                                      OP, this is the packet and might be helpful: https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/7Jar...saction-packet



                                      EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by dags View Post

                                        If there is no agency contract and instead only a BOS, and if the OP never paid the trainer a commission and in fact was paid the agreed upon price by the trainer, well it's certainly crappy ethical behavior but not sure it's criminal. That the reasons for agreeing to the lower price were bogus is, I fear, irrelevant if there is no signed agency contract or commission paid...?
                                        Disagree. With or without a contract, the trainer was clearly the agent of the OP in this situation. Verbal contracts might be harder to prove, but in this instance I'm guessing there were probably some conversations and emails, and some record of clients having come looked at the horse while it was in the trainer's care. There are very clear laws in every state that prevent people from taking advantage of those to whom they owe a fiduciary duty.

                                        As agent, the trainer was bound to act in the best interests of her client. Arranging for her boyfriend/spouse to buy the pony at bottom dollar and then immediately resell it for profit to another party waiting in the wings (In this case another party that had looked at the pony during the time the trainer was acting) as agent is PLAINLY fraud.

                                        This is an age old trick to that trainers do to try to secure that hidden commission, but it is clearly illegal.

                                        The laws regarding this situation are not specific to horses, but instead to all situations where a person is acting as agent. You do not need an equine specific attorney to handle this situation, any person in any business who ripped off a client in this manner would be equally guilty of fraud.

                                        IF the trainer went to the track and bought a $1000 TB and resold it the next day for $3000, she would be in the clear--she did not have a fiduciary duty to the random person at the track.

                                        I wish the OP luck with pursuing this.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Arlomine View Post
                                          I’m a trainer. It’s embarrassing to me and an insult to my profession that this sort of thing EVER happens. I don’t understand how some of the posters have essentially defended the trainer by stating that “the pony was sold, you accepted money, it’s a done deal.”

                                          the trainer has a fiduciary DUTY to their client, she told the client that the people who bought the pony from her bought the pony were NOT INTERESTED.
                                          This is a huge conflict of interest. Absolutely NOT THE SAME as buying a pony, then flipping it at a profit, regardless of a verbal agreement to keep the pony where DD could ride it.

                                          Do pursue this, OP. Spread the word that this trainer is a cheat.
                                          Contact USHJA today.
                                          Simply because they have been led to believe it is ok. Really not their fault.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X