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Rob Gage

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  • I just went through the SafeSport Centralized Disciplinary Database. I selected cases based on the following pair of criteria:

    1. The sanction was "Permanently Ineligible" - meaning that I did not include people who had temporary measures, suspensions or non-permanent ineligibility.
    2. The adjudicating body was the U.S. Center for SafeSport - meaning that I excluded people whose bans were imposed by their NGB pre-SafeSport (for e.g. if a person was banned in 2015 by USA Volleyball, they were not counted).

    Criminal Disposition: 89.04% (n=260)
    Non-Criminal Disposition: 10.96% (n=32)

    Criminal Disposition - Involving a Minor: 64.04% (n=187)
    Criminal Disposition - Sexual Misconduct: 21.92% (n=64)
    Sexual Misconduct Involving a Minor: 6.51% (n=19)
    Sexual Misconduct: 3.77% (n=11)
    Criminal Disposition (General): 3.08% (n=9)
    Other (e.g. Intimate Relationship Involving a Minor): 0.68% (n=2)

    Total Number of Cases: 292*

    (While the Morning Call article citing Dan Hill's statement of 285 was released on July 1st, I believe that his quotes came from a little over a week ago. For example, I know that two people from USA Swimming were given lifetime bans on 6/28/2019 and 7/1/2019, respectively. I will triple-check my numbers later this evening after a power-nap LOL).

    I also want to note that the "Sexual Misconduct" and "Sexual Misconduct - Involving a Minor" categories are very broad. For example, Larry Nassar is listed as "Sexual Misconduct - Involving a Minor" with a 02/06/2018 decision date - even though he was sentenced to 60 years in federal prison for possession of images of child sexual abuse in July of 2017 + 40 to 175 years in state prison after pleading guilty to multiple counts of sexual assault of minors in January of 2018.
    Last edited by FiSk123; Jul. 3, 2019, 06:51 PM. Reason: Word Choice

    Comment


    • FiSk123 can you explain why Nassar isn't listed as Criminal Disposition?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DMK View Post

        If that interpretation is held by USEF, it most definitely is not being enforced by USEF.

        Although I'm not sure what they could do to enforce it? Ban the people running and attending the clinics? I doubt that would happen. So I disagree, if people want to hold clinics with people banned from USEF, either via SS or other USEF avenues, I suspect they can continue to hold clinics outside of any USEF venue.
        I am curious about this as well and curious about if these two infractions are actually carrying the same sanction from USEF's point of view.

        One difference here is that equestrian differs from some of the other sports in that training centers are frequently not members or have any real affiliation with USEF. By contrast, even a very local gymnastics training club is likely a member of USA Gymnastics. Same with just about any ice rink - it will be affiliated to USFSA. I believe this model is more common among the Olympic sports than the equestrian model, where trainers can just declare themselves instructors with an ad in the yellow pages and go to it, and USEF doesn't even have a list of places people can go to take riding lessons.

        Another difference is that equestrian is one of the few affiliated sports where you might come to it as a beginner as an adult, and where a lot of non-elite coaches don't work with kids.

        So if you take those two facts together, it's much easier to have a situation where a gymnastics coach gets a total ban and no, cannot come in to clinic, and have that completely enforceable, compared to equestrian. Whether that's something we want or need in equestrian, and where the line should be drawn, is a separate question.
        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

        Comment


        • Originally posted by FiSk123 View Post
          I just went through the SafeSport Centralized Disciplinary Database. I selected cases based on the following pair of criteria:

          1. The sanction was "Permanently Ineligible" - meaning that I did not include people who had temporary measures, suspensions or non-permanent ineligibility.
          2. The adjudicating body was the U.S. Center for SafeSport - meaning that I excluded people whose bans were imposed by their NGB pre-SafeSport (for e.g. if a person was banned in 2015 by USA Volleyball, they were not counted).

          Criminal Disposition: 89.04% (n=260)
          Non-Criminal Disposition: 10.96% (n=32)

          Criminal Disposition - Involving a Minor: 64.04% (n=187)
          Criminal Disposition - Sexual Misconduct: 21.92% (n=64)
          Sexual Misconduct Involving a Minor: 6.51% (n=19)
          Sexual Misconduct: 3.77% (n=11)
          Criminal Disposition (General): 3.08% (n=9)
          Other (e.g. Intimate Relationship Involving a Minor): 0.68% (n=2)

          Total Number of Cases: 292*

          (While the Morning Call article citing Dan Hill's statement of 285 was released on July 1st, I believe that his quotes came from a little over a week ago. For example, I know that two people from USA Swimming were given lifetime bans on 6/28/2019 and 7/1/2019, respectively. I will triple-check my numbers later this evening after a power-nap LOL).

          I also want to note that the "Sexual Misconduct" and "Sexual Misconduct - Involving a Minor" categories are very broad. For example, Larry Nassar is listed as "Sexual Misconduct - Involving a Minor" with a 02/06/2018 decision date - even though he was sentenced to 60 years in federal prison for possession of images of child sexual abuse in July of 2017 + 40 to 175 years in state prison after pleading guilty to multiple counts of sexual assault of minors in January of 2018.
          Thank you for compiling and sharing this. (And for your participation here in general.)
          I hope this is helpful in dispelling the idea that SafeSport is putting out lifetime bans left and right for noncriminal conduct.
          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

          Comment


          • Originally posted by IPEsq View Post
            FiSk123 can you explain why Nassar isn't listed as Criminal Disposition?
            Is it possible that is the case because that is the claim SS investigated? Could he theoretically face a second lifetime ban for the criminal disposition?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by roseymare View Post

              Is it possible that is the case because that is the claim SS investigated? Could he theoretically face a second lifetime ban for the criminal disposition?
              IPEsq I just contacted a SafeSport media representative to get a definitive answer. However, in my experience, roseymare's statement is the most likely explanation.

              IIRC Nassar was "only" convicted of sexually abusing 10 (?) girls due to a plea deal (I may be getting the number wrong - I'm much more familiar with the class action lawsuit and USAG and MSU-facilitated cover-up than the specifics of the criminal convictions). SafeSport most likely investigated a case that was not apart of that plea bargain. If this is true, then "Criminal Disposition - Involving a Minor" would technically be an inaccurate description (even though I believe that any reasonable person knows that he is guilty of MANY more crimes that he was actually convicted of).

              Comment


              • Sorry guys, bad example. won't comment any further except......I am a #METOO and an abused and I had a poor choice of words relating to this sad, awful subject..again, sorry!
                [url]http://www.horseshowbiz.com
                [url]http://www.ijumpsports.com

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tackpud View Post
                  From USHJA:
                  Dear Fellow USHJA Members,

                  SafeSport: It can be the topic that divides us or brings us together. Amongst all the discussion and controversy, I believe that we can agree that youth must have a safe environment in which to learn and grow. It is also important to recognize that each member deserves fairness and integrity in all that our sport provides. Horses give riders wings and the opportunity to practice leadership, sportsmanship, empathy, compassion and teamwork.

                  Amidst the many questions regarding SafeSport, I met with Michael Henry, acting chief officer for response and resolution from the U.S. Center for SafeSport (“The Center”). USHJA Executive Director Kevin Price, USHJA’s General Counsel Marianne Kutner, and I had a chance to ask Mr. Henry many questions regarding the processes that The Center has adopted.

                  The Protecting Young Victims from Sexual Abuse and Safe Sport Authorization Act was signed into law in 2018, establishing the U.S. Center for Safe Sport. This came about after some National Governing Bodies were found to have turned a blind eye to sexual misconduct within their sports.

                  SafeSport is a reality for the USHJA. We are bound under the Act for two reasons: the first is because Jumpers are part of the Olympic Movement; and second, we are an Amateur sports organization that participates in interstate athletic competition and our members include adults who are in regular contact with minor athletes.

                  One of the greatest concerns expressed by our membership is the extent to which fair and adequate procedural safeguards are afforded in the SafeSport process. Mr. Henry said that the SafeSport code calls for “fair notice and an opportunity to be heard.” He described that process in detail and the information is also available on The Center’s website. We further questioned the extent of the procedures provided prior to issuing a Temporary Suspension and Mr. Henry described it as follows:

                  When a complaint is received by The Center, a Temporary Suspension can be issued after an examination of three criteria:
                  1. The severity of the accusation. Mr. Henry’s example was that “a pat on the butt,” although inappropriate, does not rise to this level. In general, this involves sexual abuse of a child and the sexual abuse is conducted in a way to put other minors at risk.
                  2. The sufficiency of evidence. This often comes in the form of multiple claimants.
                  3. Whether there is relative risk to the participants and/or the community. In general, this comes because the accused is continuing to interact with or train minors.


                  If these three criteria are met, the Temporary Suspension is issued in the form of a notification to the respondent and their sport federation. At that time, the respondent is offered a 72-hour window to ask for a hearing.

                  If a hearing is requested, it is typically conducted within 24 hours. The Center contacts JAMS (formerly known as Judicial Arbitration and Mediation Services) and an independent arbitrator is assigned to the hearing. The arbitrator is not connected to The Center. The Center’s attorney presents an opening brief and the respondent, or their attorney, testifies. The arbitrator makes the decision as to whether the Temporary Suspension is upheld.

                  We asked Mr. Henry if The Center would consider a delay in adding a person to the list until after the hearing. His answer was that The Center, knowing that in their opinion the preponderance of the evidence supported a Temporary Suspension, would be uncomfortable having the respondent in the environment where they could potentially abuse another minor. The Center’s investigators are former FBI, Children’s Services, NCIS, and Title IX investigators, as well as judges and prosecutors. They receive additional training in sexual abuse cases.

                  It is our understanding that the USEF has scheduled a meeting with The Center to explore modification of the process of placing individuals on the Temporary Suspension list. On the surface, that may feel more comfortable to some, especially when the violation occurred many years in the past.

                  In the past 10 days, I have received several calls from people who as minors were victims of a sexual assault 20-plus years ago. To them, the assault is fresh in their mind and the trauma has had a profound effect on their life. It is possible that the person who assaulted them has become a better person and that they are no longer a threat to minors. However, if the respondent is still in a position where he or she poses a potential threat to minors, that postponement of publication to the Temporary Suspension list may have serious consequences.

                  It is important for all of us to strike a balance for our sport. Mr. Henry has shown me that he is willing to listen to ways in which the SafeSport code can be improved. We will meet with The Center as necessary and will press for change where change is appropriate.

                  As I continue to meet with The Center, I will keep you advised as to any further information or substantive changes. In the meantime, I hope that you will continue to send me feedback, concerns and questions regarding SafeSport at mbabick13@gmail.com. Please remember that reports of abuse should go either to The Center or to law enforcement.

                  Serving you is our top priority, which means doing what's best for our members, supporters and our sport. Together, we can make sure that our sport is safe for all our members. Thank you for your membership. I truly appreciate it.

                  Sincerely,
                  Mary Babick
                  USHJA President
                  So if I read that correctly, even if USHJA separated from USEF, they would still be required to follow safesport?
                  Talking to some people is like folding a fitted sheet.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by khobstetter View Post
                    Sorry guys, bad example. won't comment any further except......I am a #METOO and an abused and I had a poor choice of words relating to this sad, awful subject..again, sorry!
                    Kathy, I get that this isn't a comfortable crowd, but we are I think a pretty fair crowd. As we all know, as my coaches told me many times, sometimes being uncomfortable is part of growing. I encourage you to engage here when you want feedback from a larger crowd with a different take. I know you've been involved at trying to reach out and build more participation in governance and this is one place to do it.

                    From your message earlier in the thread, speaking as someone who knows what it is to herd cats online, I encourage you to take these steps with your group:
                    1. Teach them to divide the ideas of the sanction/hearing process from the code of conduct suggestions. Understand that people are not getting life sanctions for sending a text message or hugging a rider in public. Life sanctions are about serious, predatory conduct. The guidelines are meant to protect not just athletes but also coaches from being in situations that are questionable. They are best practices. Just like your horse won't run off every time you switch a halter for a bridle, we still always practice and teach everyone to keep reins over the head or a halter buckled around the neck, always. Horsemanship is full of best practices to protect horse and rider from that one unexpected moment.
                    2. Work on those Best Practices guidelines for equestrian. They're not perfect (and may never be). If there are specific ones that seem unworkable, take the spirit of the guideline and figure out either (a) how to help horsemen meet it or (b) consider how it might be reworked to better fit facts on the ground. Some of it may be suggesting better or different technology and techniques for communication. Let's work together.
                    3. Be aware of the larger world. These guidelines are nothing new to people who are acting as leaders in scouting and 4-H, or who are professional teachers at the K-12 or university level. Figure out how they work with them.
                    4. Every guideline is there for a reason. Know what that reason is before declaring it stupid.
                    5. Make sure everyone stays fact-based. There's probably someone in your group who is willing to read the full documentation and correct misconceptions. Use them and elevate them. Remove anyone who won't be corrected on the facts or who can't learn to look things up before asserting them as facts.
                    6. Remove conflicts of interest. I don't believe someone sanctioned under this process can do anything but poison your discussion and your credibility. Take stories from them, then thank them and excuse them from the discussion.
                    7. If your goal is truly to make a good process that protects athletes - and remember Rob's role was no longer truly as athlete - then it really shouldn't be about him. Look to other sports for examples you can hold at arms' length.
                    Be well.
                    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by AffirmedHope View Post

                      So if I read that correctly, even if USHJA separated from USEF, they would still be required to follow safesport?
                      Yes, all Olympic sports are required to participate in SafeSport by federal law.
                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                        Kathy, I get that this isn't a comfortable crowd, but we are I think a pretty fair crowd. As we all know, as my coaches told me many times, sometimes being uncomfortable is part of growing. I encourage you to engage here when you want feedback from a larger crowd with a different take. I know you've been involved at trying to reach out and build more participation in governance and this is one place to do it.

                        From your message earlier in the thread, speaking as someone who knows what it is to herd cats online, I encourage you to take these steps with your group:
                        1. Teach them to divide the ideas of the sanction/hearing process from the code of conduct suggestions. Understand that people are not getting life sanctions for sending a text message or hugging a rider in public. Life sanctions are about serious, predatory conduct. The guidelines are meant to protect not just athletes but also coaches from being in situations that are questionable. They are best practices. Just like your horse won't run off every time you switch a halter for a bridle, we still always practice and teach everyone to keep reins over the head or a halter buckled around the neck, always. Horsemanship is full of best practices to protect horse and rider from that one unexpected moment.
                        2. Work on those Best Practices guidelines for equestrian. They're not perfect (and may never be). If there are specific ones that seem unworkable, take the spirit of the guideline and figure out either (a) how to help horsemen meet it or (b) consider how it might be reworked to better fit facts on the ground. Some of it may be suggesting better or different technology and techniques for communication. Let's work together.
                        3. Be aware of the larger world. These guidelines are nothing new to people who are acting as leaders in scouting and 4-H, or who are professional teachers at the K-12 or university level. Figure out how they work with them.
                        4. Every guideline is there for a reason. Know what that reason is before declaring it stupid.
                        5. Make sure everyone stays fact-based. There's probably someone in your group who is willing to read the full documentation and correct misconceptions. Use them and elevate them. Remove anyone who won't be corrected on the facts or who can't learn to look things up before asserting them as facts.
                        6. Remove conflicts of interest. I don't believe someone sanctioned under this process can do anything but poison your discussion and your credibility. Take stories from them, then thank them and excuse them from the discussion.
                        7. If your goal is truly to make a good process that protects athletes - and remember Rob's role was no longer truly as athlete - then it really shouldn't be about him. Look to other sports for examples you can hold at arms' length.
                        Be well.
                        Excellent suggestions! Especially 5 and 6.
                        *****
                        You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                        Comment


                        • Is her second point true though about minors and adults who compete together intrastate also are required to be SS members?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by roseymare View Post
                            Is her second point true though about minors and adults who compete together intrastate also are required to be SS members?
                            *interstate*, yes, sort of.

                            Here's a link for you, from an organization that sells insurance:
                            https://www.sadlersports.com/new-saf...organizations/

                            Which non-NGB sport organizations are required to comply?


                            Non-NGB sports organizations include those teams, leagues, camps, sports facilities, tournament hosts, churches, and schools that participate in interstate or international amateur athletic competitions, and whose membership includes any adult who is in regular contact with an amateur athlete who is a minor.

                            The reach of the federal act is limited to organizations that are engaged in interstate or international commerce or activities. Interstate competition refers to sports organizations that travel across state lines to compete. But even those that do not travel across state lines are indirectly impacted by the act because it sets a new standard of care that will likely apply to all organizations. Most states will also move to pass state-specific legislation that directly applies to sports organizations that do not cross state lines.
                            Non-NGB organizations have a bit more leeway in how they interface with SafeSport, but the training and mandatory reporting aspects apply. The polices about limiting one-on-one interactions between adults and minors still apply.

                            Of course the original legislation is online as well.
                            If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                              Agree... I brought it up because I am unsure if previous lifetime bans (pre-SS or those outside of SS parameters) included any verbiage around that ban excluding activities outside of USEF shows.

                              It matters to me for two reasons:

                              1. Is it really okay that an SS ban can so readily be skirted? I think that is what the aiding and abetting section is trying to curtail. I really hate hearing people say 'it's only USEF shows. They can still teach, give clinics, go to non-USEF shows." That is a huge limitation of SS in my book. If someone deserves a ban, IMO, it should be from the entire industry. Abuse doesn't stop because you can't go to a USEF show. You want the ban to have teeth? Enforce 'aiding and abetting' rules. Fine people who train or clinic or show with permanently banned people.

                              2. If the outside activities were not expressly prohibited in situations like PV, well, he's doing nothing wrong by having a business. Of course, there's the whole 'sending people to shows with other trainers', etc issue that is totally skirting the ban, but just the act of doing business is not prohibited.
                              I don’t think being able to earn a living is a huge limitation of SS. It’s not a sentence handed down by a judge. A conviction in court doesn’t always have life time restrictions. Jim Gorgio plead his case down in CT and only had to register as a sex offender for 10 years.

                              The only way to ban someone from the entire industry is for people to care more about doing business with ethical people than winning. WE as clients have the power to “ban” them. Any further ban by SS, ie you can’t have horses and teach lessons for the local circuit, would be a serious overreach IMO.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                                Yes, all Olympic sports are required to participate in SafeSport by federal law.
                                Hunters are not in the Olympics. Ushja = hunters

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by APirateLooksAtForty View Post

                                  Hunters are not in the Olympics. Ushja = hunters
                                  What do you think the J stands for?
                                  Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                                    What do you think the J stands for?
                                    judgy
                                    Let me apologize in advance.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                                      What do you think the J stands for?


                                      The hunters can go make their own organization I guess, where they can drug their horses and abuse their children at will.

                                      Sorry, all the good coaches will be coming with us moral people, to the jumper ring
                                      Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

                                        The hunters can go make their own organization I guess, where they can drug their horses and abuse their children at will.
                                        I keep saying this is the best option. And like, maybe they can have their own prison rodeo! er, hunter shows!
                                        Let me apologize in advance.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by APirateLooksAtForty View Post

                                          Hunters are not in the Olympics. Ushja = hunters
                                          Um.... United States Hunter Jumper Association.....

                                          Comment

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