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Rob Gage

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  • Originally posted by APirateLooksAtForty View Post


    Midge, I’m curious why you joined the group if you aren’t interested in reform.
    Who said I wasn't?
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by APirateLooksAtForty View Post


      Midge, I’m curious why you joined the group if you aren’t interested in reform.
      Not to speak for Midge but the USEF had an opportunity to create customize policies for the horse industry. Instead they used the generic policy. A concern by many is Safe Sport is a better fit for more main stream sports and that there are aspects of the horse industry that make the policies more challenging to comply with because of how the horse industry works.

      A group like the Facebook group seems like it’s a good way to bat around ideas to do just that. Obviously that doesn’t appear to be the goal.

      ”Reform” is right.

      I personally would never join a group that welcomes child molesters or people who take advantage of the coach/student dynamic with open arms.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by APirateLooksAtForty View Post


        Midge, I’m curious why you joined the group if you aren’t interested in reform.
        I have been temped to join so that I can keep mental track of who I never want to do business with. I do not want to financially support people that are either supporting predators or who are totally willfully ignorant.

        There was a clinic this year with somebody that was banned at one point by USEF for a drug violation. While it would have been nice to attend the clinic I have no interest in supporting people that get drug bans. I have even less interest in supporting people banned through SafeSport. I don't want to support those that are willfully ignorant about why JW was banned and why RG was banned and continue to support them and predators like them.

        Just to clarify what I mean by willfully ignorant.
        On many of the FB threads and some of the SS CoTH threads it is painfully obvious that a number of people think SS should be thrown out or overhauled but they have never bothered to do any reading on the SS site. The just read the FB rants of other ignorant people and accept that as gospel. Those are the people that I consider willfully ignorant. They are choosing not stay uninformed. They are choosing to mindlessly believe FB posts rather than looking at the source.
        Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by OwnTooMany View Post

          I'm not 100% sure, but I think this is basically not true for things like clinics.

          The USEF Safe Sport policy (https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/YXj0...e-sport-policy), under a section called "E. Aiding and Abetting" (Aiding and Abetting is prohibited) says:

          "Aiding and Abetting also includes, without limitation, knowingly:"

          Item 2 in the list is:

          "Allowing any person who has been identified as suspended or otherwise ineligible by the Center to coach or instruct Participants."

          So you could not conduct a clinic at a barn owned by a USEF member, trainers that are USEF members could not take their students to the clinic, students that are USEF members could not go to the clinic, etc.

          I think that if you are banned by SafeSport, any business you had doing clinics (with minors or adults) is history. It seems like you could still train horses and buy and sell horses, but for most trainers I think it is fair to say that your business is destroyed.
          I think "Participants" could be key here. I think if they meant the entire USEF membership they would have used the word membership. I read "Participants" as "those participating in a USEF sanctioned event". So, you won't be invited to coach at the Mastership session in FL, but you're otherwise not precluded from giving clinics. Or running a whole barn that shows unrated.
          EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

          Comment


          • Originally posted by OwnTooMany View Post

            So you could not conduct a clinic at a barn owned by a USEF member, trainers that are USEF members could not take their students to the clinic, students that are USEF members could not go to the clinic, etc.

            I think that if you are banned by SafeSport, any business you had doing clinics (with minors or adults) is history. It seems like you could still train horses and buy and sell horses, but for most trainers I think it is fair to say that your business is destroyed.
            If that interpretation is held by USEF, it most definitely is not being enforced by USEF.

            Although I'm not sure what they could do to enforce it? Ban the people running and attending the clinics? I doubt that would happen. So I disagree, if people want to hold clinics with people banned from USEF, either via SS or other USEF avenues, I suspect they can continue to hold clinics outside of any USEF venue.
            Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DMK View Post

              If that interpretation is held by USEF, it most definitely is not being enforced by USEF.

              Although I'm not sure what they could do to enforce it? Ban the people running and attending the clinics? I doubt that would happen. So I disagree, if people want to hold clinics with people banned from USEF, either via SS or other USEF avenues, I suspect they can continue to hold clinics outside of any USEF venue.
              Literally right outside, a la Paul Valliere, who trains and coaches students on his farm immediately adjacent to show grounds.
              Let me apologize in advance.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

                Literally right outside, a la Paul Valliere, who trains and coaches students on his farm immediately adjacent to show grounds.
                Is he banned by SS? I know he has a lifetime USEF ban, but did that carry into SS?
                Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                  Is he banned by SS? I know he has a lifetime USEF ban, but did that carry into SS?
                  No, but he wasn't banned due to a SS offense.

                  And whether or not he was banned by SS is kind of irrelevant to the point being made by DMK and ladyj79, I think.

                  Unless you're trying to make a different point that I've missed.
                  "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                  that's even remotely true."

                  Homer Simpson

                  Comment


                  • RugBug not to my knowledge, but my post allowed for both types of banning, because I think if you couldn't enforce one, I'm not sure what you could do to enforce the other.
                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                      Is he banned by SS? I know he has a lifetime USEF ban, but did that carry into SS?
                      With regards to the discussion of USEF enforcement of bans outside of USEF events and membership, it seems apt to point out that USEF banned individuals have very successful careers catering to USEF members.

                      Will USEF police safesport bans outside of USEF events moreso than its own bans? That seems highly unlikely.
                      Let me apologize in advance.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by APirateLooksAtForty View Post


                        Midge, I’m curious why you joined the group if you aren’t interested in reform.
                        If someone invites you to join the group, their posts will pop up on your FB feed periodically. You can read them but not comment on them.

                        I would be curious as to what part of SafeSport people think shouldn’t apply to Equestrians? To me the rules seem pretty reasonable, and are what we agree to in the rest of our lives. I do understand that there is a steep learning curve in horse sports and trainers have enjoyed a huge amount of power (physically, emotionally and financially) to date, and I can see them bristling about giving some of that up. This power imbalance has made the industry ripe a wide range of abuse, and while inappropriate sexual contact is way more abhorrent, I think bullying is quite common (even from basically nice people) and I like that SS rules will help rein that in as well.

                        Comment


                        • khobstetter Hello Kathy - I would actually love to speak with you. I wholeheartedly believe that SafeSport is in need of reform. However, the group appears to be incredibly biased. For starters, the social media postings of one of the group moderators makes me very uneasy.

                          Like Midge so eloquently stated, the posts (and comments) that I have seen from the group include "a lot of people vastly ignorant about Safe Sport and how it works. And vastly ignorant about the constitution, due process and the criminal justice system."

                          According to Dan Hill, the U.S. Center for SafeSport has received 3256 reports of misconduct. They have issued 552 sanctions and has ruled 285 people permanently ineligible (The Morning Call). The most common reasons for permanent ineligibility is "Criminal disposition - involving a minor" and "Criminal disposition - sexual misconduct" (I'm currently going through the SafeSport Centralized Disciplinary Database to find the breakdown of violations that resulted in a lifetime ban. I'll make sure to share the numbers here when I'm done).

                          I bring this up because I am under the impression that several members of the group believe that SafeSport is just haphazardly banning people when, in my experience, that is definitely not the case.

                          My first question is this: How are you (and the other moderators) addressing the spread of misinformation about constitutional rights, SafeSport policy and individual cases (such as Rob Gage's and John Coughlin's) within the group?

                          2bayboys Thank you so much for your kind comment regarding my word choice. This article sums up my personal philosophy about the terms "victim" and "survivor" very well: http://helloflo.com/survivor-vs-vict...-is-important/.

                          Mack123 I really should be thanking all of you for having such important conversations about a very difficult subject.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FiSk123 View Post
                            khobstetter Hello Kathy - I would actually love to speak with you. I wholeheartedly believe that SafeSport is in need of reform. However, the group appears to be incredibly biased. For starters, the social media postings of one of the group moderators makes me very uneasy.
                            Appalling, frankly.
                            *****
                            You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                            Comment


                            • FISk123...would love to talk with you 714/797-1404. For people not reading through (yes its lengthy) group, it could be understandable to miss our project prupose. We believe that the original Congressional law, which extremely well intended, did not put forth a fair process for helping the issue and that needs to be adjusted. I will speak for me personally...... IN MY OPINION. and with some of the new guidelines put out, what is actually happening is creating more danger for children. I AM NOT STANDING UP FOR ABUSE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM...however.....trainers, coaches, instructors hold a very important place in a child athletes life as they should. In order to protect the children FROM THE BAD ONES, I believe some of the new processes actually make them more 'available' to predators and people who could abuse them. ****At a recent show a child fell off her pony, she was not hurt but extremely upset and just wanted to be hugged. Her parents were in the stands and the first person she saw at the back gate was her trainer who she ran to...he held away her by her shoulders and tried to comfort her while she cried, finally a women trainer knelt down and hugged her. Back at the barn everyone and friends hugged her, she sat on someone lap and was sad. I had a conversation with the trainer and he said he was 'afraid' to hug her in case someone wanted to 'get at him' and falsely report to SS. He was not concerned about what happened - he was concerned he would be caught up in a mess that could cost him his career. We now have several documented situations where that happened, usually by false accusations. THAT concerns me!! I'm not going to debate all this on the COTH forum so if anyone wants to understand my points, my phone number is here on COTH twice this thread, my email is ijumpsports@aol.com or you are welcome to ask to join the group. THANK YOU COTH FOR ASKING.....at least we are doing something, maybe not 'your' way but at least something, please excuse our stumbles as we run the road, but at least it is something. ALSO, over there we only deal with real names of everyone so you can tell exactly who is posting, we know who is in.
                              [url]http://www.horseshowbiz.com
                              [url]http://www.ijumpsports.com

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by khobstetter View Post
                                I had a conversation with the trainer and he said he was 'afraid' to hug her in case someone wanted to 'get at him' and falsely report to SS. He was not concerned about what happened - he was concerned he would be caught up in a mess that could cost him his career.
                                Welcome to the 21st century. This is a fact of life everywhere in any environment where adults interact with children and also in many work and educational environments where adults interact with other adults. "See something, say something." Is it an unfortunate consequence of society's recognition of the abuse problem - a recognition that has been way too long delayed. But the alternative - continuing to ignore it - is much worse.

                                If you can find me one single case where a person was sanctioned for simply hugging a crying child after a fall, I'd be shocked.

                                And I fail to see how that is an example of "the new processes actually making children more 'available' to predators and people who could abuse them."
                                "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                                that's even remotely true."

                                Homer Simpson

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by khobstetter View Post
                                  FISk123...would love to talk with you 714/797-1404. For people not reading through (yes its lengthy) group, it could be understandable to miss our project prupose. We believe that the original Congressional law, which extremely well intended, did not put forth a fair process for helping the issue and that needs to be adjusted. I will speak for me personally...... IN MY OPINION. and with some of the new guidelines put out, what is actually happening is creating more danger for children. I AM NOT STANDING UP FOR ABUSE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM...however.....trainers, coaches, instructors hold a very important place in a child athletes life as they should. In order to protect the children FROM THE BAD ONES, I believe some of the new processes actually make them more 'available' to predators and people who could abuse them. ****At a recent show a child fell off her pony, she was not hurt but extremely upset and just wanted to be hugged. Her parents were in the stands and the first person she saw at the back gate was her trainer who she ran to...he held away her by her shoulders and tried to comfort her while she cried, finally a women trainer knelt down and hugged her. Back at the barn everyone and friends hugged her, she sat on someone lap and was sad. I had a conversation with the trainer and he said he was 'afraid' to hug her in case someone wanted to 'get at him' and falsely report to SS. He was not concerned about what happened - he was concerned he would be caught up in a mess that could cost him his career. We now have several documented situations where that happened, usually by false accusations. THAT concerns me!! I'm not going to debate all this on the COTH forum so if anyone wants to understand my points, my phone number is here on COTH twice this thread, my email is ijumpsports@aol.com or you are welcome to ask to join the group. THANK YOU COTH FOR ASKING.....at least we are doing something, maybe not 'your' way but at least something, please excuse our stumbles as we run the road, but at least it is something. ALSO, over there we only deal with real names of everyone so you can tell exactly who is posting, we know who is in.
                                  As someone who has coached youth for over a decade I do understand what you are saying. I absolutely believe in human touch and that it takes a village to raise children.

                                  BUT I counter that it is actually the misinformation about Safesport that is leading to stories such as yours.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                                    Is he banned by SS? I know he has a lifetime USEF ban, but did that carry into SS?
                                    You can answer your own question: https://www.usef.org/compete/resourc...port-sanctions

                                    Unless you were trying to make a rhetorical point, in which case sorry for taking it literally!
                                    Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                                    Comment


                                    • I think as far as sanctions dealing with SS, I think the concern is that SS might have a higher authority since it is a governmental organization?

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by khobstetter View Post
                                        I AM NOT STANDING UP FOR ABUSE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM...however.....trainers, coaches, instructors hold a very important place in a child athletes life as they should. In order to protect the children FROM THE BAD ONES, I believe some of the new processes actually make them more 'available' to predators and people who could abuse them.
                                        I'm not going to call you to speak on the telephone, although I think it is very brave that you are willing to put yourself out there like that.

                                        But do you care you elaborate on your statement above that I bolded? How will SafeSport make children more available to predators? I'm failing to see that connection. Is your reasoning the hugging situation you detailed?
                                        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                                        Comment


                                        • So a child has a fall, in front of (presumably) a large crowd of people, and he thinks that his hug to comfort her will be reported? And taken seriously enough to be placed on a temp ban while investigated? Well I find that hard to believe but the easy answer is: then don't hug students, minor or adult.

                                          My son and his teammates have had plenty of hard hits in academy soccer (not rec league) in which his coach had to come on the field to check on the child. Parents aren't allowed. One was a hard enough hit the kid went to the ER for concussion protocol. Every time, his coach did the appropriate health check and then walked him off with a barely there "side hug" which is appropriate for that age (8/9 yrs old, often with tears).

                                          I would think it very weird if my coach bent down and full on hugged my son, because he is a coach, not a member of our immediate family/friends.

                                          Maybe it's time for our professionals to act more like professionals and not be so close to students/clients? It would certainly make the bad mouthing (from another thread) less prevalent if everyone wasn't so "buddy buddy".
                                          www.englishivyfarms.com
                                          Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
                                          All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

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