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Rob Gage

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  • Midge are you addressing a specific case? Not moving forward with a suspension or ban doesn't necessarily mean that false accusations were brought.
    Let me apologize in advance.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

      Actually, I'm not struggling with wrapping my head around SafeSport. Just looking farther into the future than most will. Also recognizing that we've only heard one side. I'm really interested in hearing from GPJumper when they can talk. I'd love the hear from others that have been involved in investigations (as witnesses, etc)

      I DO get where you're coming from for the most part. It's a place that has no ability to hear anything both those that support your way of thinking. You have to fall back on saying people are ignorant, etc because you can't seem to fathom why anyone could have concerns. If they have concerns, they must not have read anything or must not know what they are talking about, or must support the accused. Those seem to be the options right now.

      I quote you when I want to comment on something you said. If I want to comment on a general concept, I will remove the name of the person. Simple as that.
      Nah you don’t know where I’m coming from. Why I disagree with you is because most of what you think can be disproved by google. The rest of your distrust well I chalk that up to being in a bubble. We can all find those cases where the system failed. It doesn’t mean we throw it out. I also have little tolerance for people who complain and never bring ideas. And GPJimper’s case actually shows that it works in favor of the abuser too.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
        McLain's relationship to Barney remained very, very close, both personally and professionally. Their businesses were very much intertwined, and like Vallieri and Williams (to name only a few), Barney still managed to make a solid living in the horse industry despite his "unsavory" behavior, and ultimately a lifetime ban from USEF shows.


        As this week and every other week of my life has proven, some people really don't care at all what kind of human dumpster fire you are, provided you help them win ribbons or are a member of the same "class".
        RugBug

        Comment


        • I'm confused about all this talk of "transparency." People keep complaining that SafeSport isn't transparent and I'm curious about exactly what people mean by this and exactly what it is people expect SafeSport to do in the name of transparency.

          I feel like some people are saying that they want to whole process to be public - the accusers and witnesses identified, all the salacious details of any allegations released, who said what, who did what... And that is just crazy talk.


          "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
          that's even remotely true."

          Homer Simpson

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
            Midge are you addressing a specific case? Not moving forward with a suspension or ban doesn't necessarily mean that false accusations were brought.
            Yes. A specific case.
            *****
            You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

            Comment


            • I remember when SS was implemented not to long ago & I remember reading on this forum that the horse world was going to be shocked when people’s past wrong doings finally catch up with them.
              The truth is everyone knows this sport has a very, very dark side. People have known for years & they continue to whisper about it.
              I think now that SS is around, some of those abused are feeling safe about reporting it & hoping they can save other kids from similar horrible experiences.
              I also think that a lot of people that did evil tings are scared they are going to be called out. It’s causing mass hysteria. The men’s club can no longer protect itself.
              Some are calling for a statute of limitations .... basically they want to be “ grandfathered in”. If you molested a kid before this date... your fine.
              Face it... we have all heard the whispers about this behavior for years & years & years. Let’s not be shocked when SS starts investigating trainers. We all knew this was going to happen... because it’s been happening to kids & we all heard the whispers. Of course people are going to be upset to finally to called out. We need SS to clean house.

              Comment


              • Z
                Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                I would imagine they had an easier time because 1) they don't know the people involved and 2) the accusations were made publicly. They can name the accusers of Weinstein, Louis CK, Kavanaugh. They can't do that for RG so it's harder for them to grasp. With their behaviour, I don't think they should know...but as a whole, public allegations are much easier to support and harder to dismiss.
                And yet. Kavanagh still made it onto the supreme court, even though his behavior at the hearing was disqualifying, regardless of whatever he may have done 35 years ago. Louis C.K. is performing again, even though he admitted his terrible behavior. And Weinstein will probably slither out from under his rock sooner rather than later. So apparently the allegations against them are still not too hard to dismiss.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                  Z And yet. Kavanagh still made it onto the supreme court, even though his behavior at the hearing was disqualifying, regardless of whatever he may have done 35 years ago. Louis C.K. is performing again, even though he admitted his terrible behavior. And Weinstein will probably slither out from under his rock sooner rather than later. So apparently the allegations against them are still not too hard to dismiss.
                  But because they can’t have the names of the people who spoke up all hell breaks loose. It’s like they don’t realize that if all this happened recently and someone spoke up they still wouldn’t know the name. They’d also be rioting. Call SS melt down. Call the cops and an arrest happens. Melt down. No win.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NoSuchPerson View Post
                    I'm confused about all this talk of "transparency." People keep complaining that SafeSport isn't transparent and I'm curious about exactly what people mean by this and exactly what it is people expect SafeSport to do in the name of transparency.

                    I feel like some people are saying that they want to whole process to be public - the accusers and witnesses identified, all the salacious details of any allegations released, who said what, who did what... And that is just crazy talk.

                    For better or for worse, here is what I would like to see. "In 1988 , it was alleged that John Smith had a relationship of a sexual nature with his then 16 year old student. This was corroborated with several witnesses who were questioned and were found to be reliable witnesses. John Smith maintained that he never had a relationship with this or any other student but given the credible witness accounts, the USEF felt a permanent ban was in order."

                    Since these are not legal proceedings, I feel the above would not be out of order. This is just my take.

                    This happens when a teacher is fired and/or charged. The news gives the details without mentioning the minors names.
                    "Punch him in the wiener. Then leave." AffirmedHope

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CindyCRNA View Post

                      For better or for worse, here is what I would like to see. "In 1988 , it was alleged that John Smith had a relationship of a sexual nature with his then 16 year old student. This was corroborated with several witnesses who were questioned and were found to be reliable witnesses. John Smith maintained that he never had a relationship with this or any other student but given the credible witness accounts, the USEF felt a permanent ban was in order."

                      Since these are not legal proceedings, I feel the above would not be out of order. This is just my take.
                      That would be perfect. My only fear is people would hunt down, like they are now, who they think said something.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                        That would be perfect. My only fear is people would hunt down, like they are now, who they think said something.
                        Bingo.

                        Comment


                        • This is quite off topic at this point in the thread and more of a vent than anything else.

                          If you are a victim of sexual assault, I want you to know that regardless of how long ago it occurred, I support you and believe you deserve justice. I am deeply worried that this reaction will scare other individuals from coming forward. I am not here to pass judgement on the guilt or innocence of Rob, however, I would like to provide some quotes from academic journals that help provide some support on why an organization like SafeSport is necessary and long overdue.

                          "Child victims of sexual abuse comprise the highest percentage of individuals with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), and they are significantly more likely to develop anxiety and depression, abuse drugs and alcohol, and attempt suicide (Olafson, 2011)." These individuals are experiencing devastating side effects that last a LIFETIME. There is a reason many states do not have a statute of limitations on sex crimes.

                          Why are these victims coming forward decades later? "Disclosure is further complicated by the process of grooming which consists of four stages: (1) targeting the victim, (2) building trust, (3) developing isolation, and (4) initiation of the sexual abuse and securing secrecy (Brackenridge & Fasting, 2005). The secrecy and the subjectively appraised consequences of its breach reduce disclosure to only a fraction of the actual cases."

                          I know many individuals worry how SafeSport will effect the barn rat. Fortunately, it is providing the protection they may not know they need. The most damning evidence I came across for the necessity of SafeSport was the below:

                          "Vertommen et al. (2016) reported a higher prevalence of sexual violence for elite athletes than others. Further, three of the qualitative studies showed that children who worked hard to become better athletes and put a lot of effort into their participation were more prone to sexual violence than the others (Fasting & Sand, 2015)."

                          I am more than happy to share the above sources for those who are curious about learning more about the links between sex abuse and sport. Google Scholar provides many great articles on the topic.

                          According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, as recently as 2016, an estimated 77% of rape and sexual assault incidents went unreported in the United States.

                          It is time for change in the horse industry and I hope the predators get what they deserve.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                            Out of curiousity, I wanted to see the background of current SafeSport investigators. Of the three listed*, two are from academia. One was a Title IX Coordinator. Perhaps the Atlantic article on how sexual assault is being handled on campus is a little more pertinent that some people thought.


                            *i'm surprised their profiles are public.
                            I looked at the LinkedIn profiles of SafeSport staff the other day and I was pretty impressed.

                            There's a senior investigator who was an NCIS investigator for 32 years. There are also a bunch of attorneys, including one that appears to have been a civil rights attorney, and a guy who spent 9 years working at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

                            I think you're being unfairly dismissive of the qualifications of SafeSport investigators and other staff.
                            "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                            that's even remotely true."

                            Homer Simpson

                            Comment


                            • VCDTherapy1 I don’t think your post is off topic at all. There are survivors reading this thread. People struggling with the death of a friend. People who are just trying to make sense of something that hit close to home.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oneequestrienne View Post

                                I agree about what is going wrong on college campuses. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with how Safesport operates. At all. There are no anonymous complaints allowed. Those accused are allowed to know who is accusing them as well as appeal the decision. It’s just not the same.
                                so, if this is the case, and a number of people have said the same thing, why does SafeSport contradict it in their materials, including having explicit instructions on the reporting page that tells you how to report anonymously? Perhaps this is part of the confusion for people. If you have other information that confirms they won't act on anonymous reports, can you provide a link?

                                https://safesport.org/guides (download the "What to expect: anonymity, confidentiality and privacy" guide

                                https://safesport-platform-staging.a...net/help/index

                                https://cm.maxient.com/reportingform...rt&layout_id=0
                                Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by ynl063w View Post

                                  I'd like to ask you why you are so skeptical and lacking in trust when it comes to people who are trained investigators. I think a few pages back you referenced a documentary or an article that spoke to a specific case where the investigators got stuff wrong, and it seems as though you are judging every single person who investigates for a living with the brush that you created from that one source?
                                  Not based on one source. Based on multiple sources (I have a bit of a fascination with wrongful convictions) and know that investigators, including police, approach things from a certain perspective...and that colors their view of events. Sometimes it's pretty blatant like the documentary I mentioned. Other times they are just doing their job and it magically supports the purpose they were hired for.

                                  There seems to be three ways to approach an investigation: let the evidence do the talking, prove the person did it, or prove they didn't. It's really hard to do just the first, especially if the situation isn't clear cut and you get conflicting evidence. Keeping the bias out is very, very difficult.


                                  Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
                                  Every single human being living on this planet has biases based on each individual's life experiences; no one is immune to that. If the requirement listed for job descriptions was no personal biases allowed, no one would have a job. Do you believe that everyone on the planet lets his or her personal bias get in the way of job performance on the whole, or do you believe that there is a specific reason that investigators are more prone to personal bias leaking into their professional lives more than the rest of the population? If so, why? Finally, do you have a personal bias when it comes to investigators that renders you unable to form an unbiased opinion about them as a whole?
                                  Yes, I believe every person has biases, conscious and unconscious, and there is no person that exists that is truly unbiased. When you add in a moral purpose, it just gets harder. Or when a certain kind of finding has benefit to an employer...

                                  You see this with how people interpret evidence. You can even see it on this thread, where one person sees an anecdote supporting Safe Sport and another sees the same as a condemnation. Career investigators are obviously professionals, so it's not quite as evident, but they still have bias. It's why it's so interesting. When things get murkier, such as having to rely only on memories, it just makes it that much harder.

                                  I will admit to my own bias due to a fascination of wrongful conviction and over-reaching or corrupt law and a judicial system that entrenches itself in wrongful convictions. I'm also very interested in how that affects marginalized groups. It's honestly maddening...and has eroded my trust in the process and our system. As a person, I cannot form an unbiased open about investigators...and it happens that I think while there are good ones, there is also too much room, that perhaps cannot be removed, for error. i also believe that anyone can blindly support/trust something like this, hasn't dug deep enough.


                                  ETA: This reads like an interrogation, and that was not my intent at all. I'm not going to take the time to rewrite it, so please know I am just genuinely curious about your huge distrust regarding investigators. If the reason is personal, definitely disregard my questions.
                                  No worries at all. i find pondering my own bias to be a good thing.
                                  Last edited by RugBug; Jun. 17, 2019, 11:05 PM.
                                  Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                  Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                                    so, if this is the case, and a number of people have said the same thing, why does SafeSport contradict it in their materials, including having explicit instructions on the reporting page that tells you how to report anonymously? Perhaps this is part of the confusion for people. If you have other information that confirms they won't act on anonymous reports, can you provide a link?



                                    https://safesport-platform-staging.a...net/help/index

                                    https://cm.maxient.com/reportingform...rt&layout_id=0
                                    I would take that to mean you can stay anonymous but it most likely won’t go any where. The people getting suspended have names attached to the complaint. Is the original complaint made by the person who gives them what they need to suspend? Probably not. If people are scared of retribution for reporting shamatuers, which has been said in this thread, then why on earth would you not provide an anonymous outlet for sexual misconduct?

                                    The police act on anonymous tips all the time. SA really does mimic police investigations.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                                      I would take that to mean you can stay anonymous but it most likely won’t go any where. The people getting suspended have names attached to the complaint. Is the original complaint made by the person who gives them what they need to suspend? Probably not. If people are scared of retribution for reporting shamatuers, which has been said in this thread, then why on earth would you not provide an anonymous outlet for sexual misconduct?

                                      The police act on anonymous tips all the time. SA really does mimic police investigations.
                                      Perhaps, but people have been assertive in stating that you CANNOT report anonymously and SafeSport won't act on it. The first is false...is the second?
                                      Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                      Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                                      Comment


                                      • Im disgusted by all the professional who jumped on FB and made multiple multiple post on how SS killed RG. Over and over again. How ridiculous everyone was being about signing petitions to basically cancel safe sport / USEF *eye roll*

                                        I can’t imagine the feeling of losing a close friend and loved one that way but the outrage was outrageous IMO.

                                        The victim blaming and bashing on multiple FB threads was disheartening. Having victims come forward only to get name called and blamed .

                                        Lots of professionals I’d never work with nor clinic with! I haven’t shown USEF in 4+ years or actively worked with any sort of trainer. Lots of people in bubbles, lots of entitlement.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                                          so, if this is the case, and a number of people have said the same thing, why does SafeSport contradict it in their materials, including having explicit instructions on the reporting page that tells you how to report anonymously?
                                          It's not a contradiction at all. You can report anonymously, just like I can call county animal control and report animal abuse without identifying myself. But all an anonymous report will do is initiate an investigation. Unless the investigation finds actual evidence of abuse and a real, live, non-anonymous victim, nothing is going to come of it.

                                          "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                                          that's even remotely true."

                                          Homer Simpson

                                          Comment

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