Stallion Spotlight

Feinrich-Nr_1-12-18-10-074 Beelitz

Real Estate Spotlight

Backyard3
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Rob Gage

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post
    That Vanessa Brown thread. Man. Apparently Kursinski should have either said something 30 years ago or kept her mouth shut and now she has blood on her hands.

    I have a hard time talking about some of the issues I have with SafeSport and then people like this who just excuse molestors.
    It is an interesting cultural phenomenon...and why so many abuse victims never come forward. The victim shaming that happens to abuse victims is mind blowing. Yet, no one victim blames the alter boys when they have been molested by priests, no matter how many years ago it happened. Hearing people speak about abusers in this fashion, "S/he was such a nice person" and "S/he would give you the shirt off their back" and "My god it was 35 years ago. Really." only proves the mindset of our society.

    No other crime is questioned in the same way by society - what were you wearing, how much did you have to drink, did you lead them on? Imagine questioning a convenience store clerk who had just been held at gun point - what were you wearing, how much did you have to drink, did you lead them on?

    It shouldn't matter whether it happened 30 years ago or 3 days ago. Abuse is abuse, and for some people, the healing process doesn't start until they go public and their abuser is brought to justice and they can finally close that chapter of their life. To belittle someone by saying, "I hope whomever decided to report a 35 year old incident is still happy with their decision" is so beyond heartless and misinformed. I don't know the details of Mr. Gage's case, but if a sexual assault did happen, the victim has a right to report the abuse, a right to tell their story and a right to bring their abuser to justice, regardless of how long ago it happened.

    And I'm sorry, a 17 year old dating a 25 year old is considered statutory rape (if sex was involved) in most states and countries! A person under the age of 18 cannot consent to sex because they are not mature enough to make those kinds of decisions. I'm sorry but a 17 year old and a 25 year old have nothing in common. Just because everyone turned a blind eye to it 30 years ago doesn't mean it was OK.

    Reading the comments on that disgusting Facebook thread and seeing the true mindset of people tells me we need an abuse reporting system in place more than ever. Sexual abuse/assault is the one crime were the accused is considered guilty until proven innocent...but it is also the one crime in which the victim is constantly blamed for the criminal's actions.

    The biggest problem for USEF right now is that members don't know enough about SafeSport and that has created a lot of assumptions in regards to how SafeSport is managed and how accusations are investigated. As a result, it has created a rumor mill and instilled fear. I think it is something USEF needs to address if they want positivity, going forward.
    Last edited by Daventry; Jun. 13, 2019, 11:24 AM.
    www.DaventryEquestrian.com
    Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
    Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness
    www.EquineAppraisers.com

    Comment


    • #42
      Thank you, Daventry. Well said and necessary.
      The plural of anecdote is not data.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post

        I do agree that victims should NOT be named publicly, however I absolutely am against anonymous reporting. Keep the names confidential, but they need to be attached to the report.

        No one is saying Safesport is a bad concept. We can all agree that athletes need to be protected. But I do think the way it was implemented is flawed. It's a system that lends itself to abuse because accountability only goes one way: on the accused. Accountability needs to be on the accused, the accuser, and Safesport equally. Assumption of guilt isn't protecting people. By the time the investigation is complete? It's far too late for those found innocent.

        Do I think false reports are a minority? Yes. But I also recognize we're in a sport with a lot of money involved, more than a little crazy, and several people with questionable ethics.
        What the heck does money have to do with anything? Gage wasn’t found innocent. He was however appealing the ruling. Do you realize that victims rights are a new concept?

        Those people with questionable ethics are giving cocaine to horses and sleeping with minors amongst other things. And as per one poster she was interviewed by Safe Sport. THEY know who she is. YOU don’t need that information. It’s a third part investigation. By all means if you know someone who has made false accusations report them.

        Again. Y’all are mad name dropping won’t get you a free pass.

        Am I the only one that finds it funny that the one discipline that will never be under the FEI or an Olympic sport is THE only one complaining rabidly about Safe Sport?

        Comment


        • #44
          On the questioning about drinking/what you were wearing...

          From a law enforcement officer? These questions ARE relevant. The reason clothing is asked about is to make sure everything is collected for evidence. Drinking is asked about to determine the possibility of the victim being drugged. If the victim did see the drink prepared? The odds something was slipped in it are much smaller than if they didn't.

          The problem is that people who aren't law enforcement think they also have a right to ask these questions, and completely misinterpret the reason they're being asked. These questions are absolutely not ok when asked by anyone other than law enforcement.

          Again, I'm not against the idea of Safesport. I'm against having a completely different legal standard when the repercussions are so far-reaching. I'd be much less concerned if this was a "turn over to law enforcement for investigation and act on the results" setup. I agree that convictions should automatically be acted on by Safesport. But I'm not comfortable with the investigation/suspension process as it stands currently.
          Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post
            On the questioning about drinking/what you were wearing...

            From a law enforcement officer? These questions ARE relevant. The reason clothing is asked about is to make sure everything is collected for evidence. Drinking is asked about to determine the possibility of the victim being drugged. If the victim did see the drink prepared? The odds something was slipped in it are much smaller than if they didn't.

            The problem is that people who aren't law enforcement think they also have a right to ask these questions, and completely misinterpret the reason they're being asked. These questions are absolutely not ok when asked by anyone other than law enforcement.

            Again, I'm not against the idea of Safesport. I'm against having a completely different legal standard when the repercussions are so far-reaching. I'd be much less concerned if this was a "turn over to law enforcement for investigation and act on the results" setup. I agree that convictions should automatically be acted on by Safesport. But I'm not comfortable with the investigation/suspension process as it stands currently.
            So law enforcement DOES NOT ask those questions in the manner you presented. Not if they are remotely ethical and if they do, people file grievances.

            Comment


            • #46
              I have to agree with MyssMyst here. I am also for the implication of a policing measure to stop abuse of minors. I have NO problem with bringing attention to predators and protecting young people. I am a survivor myself (though not from equestrian activities). I understand what a victim goes through on a very personal level. I also understand that 98% of reports are made by people being truthful and without malice. HOWEVER, we also have to accept that, in its current form, there is room for abuse in the Safe Sport format. To deny that and beat our breasts indignantly will not help SafeSport to become the most effective tool it can be. We need to address issues and refine and improve the process.

              My example in my earlier post was of a female trainer who was losing clients. She threatened a male trainer that if he accepted any of her clients she would claim that he used an abuse of power (she was not a minor) to induce her into a sexual relationship. He did not accept the clients because he understood the "guilty until proven innocent" timbre of Safe Sport.

              We must remain open minded and not just shout each other down when we present opposing views.

              Comment


              • #47
                Didi did you report that trainer threatening to make a false accusation? Because that’s reportable and punishable under Safe Sport as well.

                It goes both ways. But if one knows of such things and stays silent..... I would hope you stay silent on the rest of it.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Having already watched this happen once, since I'm a big figure skating fan, my feelings about this are honestly the same as they were in January: what has happened here is tragic, and I'm not discounting the tragedy, and the people who knew him absolutely have the right to mourn as they see fit.

                  With that being said, though, the tragedy of it also doesn't eliminate the validity of an accuser's right to report or be heard, or the potential severity of whatever may have happened to that person. The emotions get complicated, and I honestly felt sick to my stomach when I saw this come up on Twitter last night, but I still stand by the importance of having a mechanism like SafeSport available to people, especially if law enforcement will not (or cannot) do anything of consequence for a victim but their organization may be able to provide some support.

                  We obviously don't know all of the details regarding accusations in this situation and otherwise, but it's been my understanding that SafeSport doesn't just open a full investigation or levy a suspension against someone (temporary or otherwise), or publicly announce any suspensions, unless they have a legitimate reason to believe it's necessary. Some people may feel that it happens willy-nilly, but that's not the impression that I've gotten. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely, there always is, but I don't think eliminating SafeSport is really the answer here either.

                  (It also speaks to the climate of vitriol surrounding these discussions across a lot of social media platforms that I even feel uncomfortable posting this much of an opinion, but so be it.)

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                    Am I the only one that finds it funny that the one discipline that will never be under the FEI or an Olympic sport is THE only one complaining rabidly about Safe Sport?
                    Nope. I noticed that too.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by lcw579 View Post

                      Nope. I noticed that too.
                      Next question, am I also the only one that finds it humorous when hunters carry on about their trainers, idols and friends losing business when PV is just fine, LG and KF are just fine and RG probably would have been just fine despite killing horses for money, drugging horses constantly, and diddling kids?

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Impractical Horsewoman View Post
                        I don't know anything about Gage, other than occasionally seeing his Judge My Ride columns drift across my Facebook feed, and what people have posted about him here and on Twitter.

                        But it's important to remember from a mental health standpoint that suicide is rarely caused by a single, determining factor.
                        From my professional opinion working in the Mental health field, your statement is too simple to be validated. Realize the chain of events that occurs from a “single, determining factor”, a downward spiral in this case. It’s a butterfly effect. The same way in which someone who goes to jail kills themself while incarcerated before trial. Doesn’t mean that they have a long list of “reasons”. The single act of the safe sport allegations have created a detrimental chain of events. From tarnishing someone’s name, ruining their career, labeling them as a predator, causing financial stress from the lack of a job, emotional stress, public humiliation. All without investigation, evidence, etc. Your statement is ignorant at best.

                        SafeSport is flawed and unconstitutional. It needs to be revisited, revised, then reimplemented. There is no way in which abuse of a minor should occur, ever. But this quickly implemented, witch hunt of an organization is crap to say the least. No due process, no statute of limitations, guilty until proven innocent. It is a scare tactic and also being used maliciously. It’s ruining the livelihood of others, victims and the accused.

                        I have many issues with SafeSport. We are not like other sports, so the daily “communicate with the minor athlete and parent, another adult, 2 additional minors” is irresponsible. If a student is texted to get on their horse 15 mins early, does there really need to be another adult to hound them as well? It’s the “let’s hold your hand through life” society. Zero responsibility, zero accountability. Horses are a lifestyle. SafeSport is not the answer.

                        I’m waiting for USEFs press release on this one, or will there even be one?....

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          The idea of Safe Sport is not the problem.
                          But when they take on the roll of judge and jury before all evidence is in, is the issue.

                          The process needs to change. I agree they need to investigate. But to put a person's life on hold when accused while they do, is wrong. Especially in a situation that is over 3.5 decades old!

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by ThePerfectFit View Post

                            From my professional opinion working in the Mental health field, your statement is too simple to be validated. Realize the chain of events that occurs from a “single, determining factor”, a downward spiral in this case. It’s a butterfly effect. The same way in which someone who goes to jail kills themself while incarcerated before trial. Doesn’t mean that they have a long list of “reasons”. The single act of the safe sport allegations have created a detrimental chain of events. From tarnishing someone’s name, ruining their career, labeling them as a predator, causing financial stress from the lack of a job, emotional stress, public humiliation. All without investigation, evidence, etc. Your statement is ignorant at best.

                            SafeSport is flawed and unconstitutional. It needs to be revisited, revised, then reimplemented. There is no way in which abuse of a minor should occur, ever. But this quickly implemented, witch hunt of an organization is crap to say the least. No due process, no statute of limitations, guilty until proven innocent. It is a scare tactic and also being used maliciously. It’s ruining the livelihood of others, victims and the accused.

                            I have many issues with SafeSport. We are not like other sports, so the daily “communicate with the minor athlete and parent, another adult, 2 additional minors” is irresponsible. If a student is texted to get on their horse 15 mins early, does there really need to be another adult to hound them as well? It’s the “let’s hold your hand through life” society. Zero responsibility, zero accountability. Horses are a lifestyle. SafeSport is not the answer.

                            I’m waiting for USEFs press release on this one, or will there even be one?....
                            Amen

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Who here complaining about Safesport has actually gone through the process with them?

                              Someone I know has, and trust me, they don't just take someone's word for it. They do a lot of leg work and investigating before they even begin investigating. Seems a lot of posters here are blabbing on about something they don't even have the slightest clue how it works. It is a legitimate process that no innocent person should ever be concerned about.

                              Didi that situation can happen any time, not just with Safe Sport, that is just something a shady person would do, and when they investigate they will see the truth pretty damn quick.

                              I have heard many UL eventers applouding SS. Saying it will help keep kids safe and actually make things easier and more organized for them especially regarding contacting their minor students.

                              I get the vibe people have seen things and know who might be next on the hit list, and thats what truly bothers them.
                              Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Here is my solution for all the show hunters. Split from the USEF like the AERC and the ADS. Petition the USHJA to be its own entity separate from the USEF. Hunters are not an FEI sport. They are not an Olympic sport. Therefore y’all have no need to be apart of the USEF. This will allow you freedom from SafeSport and go back to business as usual.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by ThePerfectFit View Post

                                  SafeSport is flawed and unconstitutional. It needs to be revisited, revised, then reimplemented. There is no way in which abuse of a minor should occur, ever. But this quickly implemented, witch hunt of an organization is crap to say the least. No due process, no statute of limitations, guilty until proven innocent. It is a scare tactic and also being used maliciously. It’s ruining the livelihood of others, victims and the accused.

                                  I have many issues with SafeSport. We are not like other sports, so the daily “communicate with the minor athlete and parent, another adult, 2 additional minors” is irresponsible. If a student is texted to get on their horse 15 mins early, does there really need to be another adult to hound them as well? It’s the “let’s hold your hand through life” society. Zero responsibility, zero accountability. Horses are a lifestyle. SafeSport is not the answer.
                                  Ok, but there is investigations, and a process. Not really sure why everyone keeps saying there isn't.

                                  If a rider (minor) needs to be texted to get on their horse at time XYZ - maybe they can become an actual horseman and learn what to do themselves. Talk about hand holding, we grew up showing without cell phones and amazing, made it into the ring just the same to win the same prizes. Ridiculous.
                                  Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    The option are not 1. Safe Sport or 2. Let Predators Get Away With It.

                                    Asking for an examination of Safe Sport’s practices does not mean anyone wants more Larry Nassar’s in the world. Many of us lost a friend today. I lost a friend today. The horse world lost decades of knowledge and devotion to the sport, the animals, and the people strive to become horsemen.

                                    We lost a man who was always quick with smiles and encouragement to everyone.

                                    It is right to ask if Safe Sport is truly doing its job. It is American to question the agencies that govern us. It’s time to find a way to do this better.


                                    Saw the above I’ve posted on Facebook. My thoughts exactly. Nobody here is “complaining about safesport” per se, just the way it has been arbitrarily and capriciously implemented.

                                    also Dani many of those looking at it with a critical eye are jumper riders, too.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                                      Who here complaining about Safesport has actually gone through the process with them?

                                      Someone I know has, and trust me, they don't just take someone's word for it. They do a lot of leg work and investigating before they even begin investigating. Seems a lot of posters here are blabbing on about something they don't even have the slightest clue how it works. It is a legitimate process that no innocent person should ever be concerned about.

                                      Didi that situation can happen any time, not just with Safe Sport, that is just something a shady person would do, and when they investigate they will see the truth pretty damn quick.

                                      I have heard many UL eventers applouding SS. Saying it will help keep kids safe and actually make things easier and more organized for them especially regarding contacting their minor students.

                                      I get the vibe people have seen things and know who might be next on the hit list, and thats what truly bothers them.
                                      Nailed it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by MintHillFarm View Post
                                        The idea of Safe Sport is not the problem.
                                        But when they take on the roll of judge and jury before all evidence is in, is the issue.

                                        The process needs to change. I agree they need to investigate. But to put a person's life on hold when accused while they do, is wrong. Especially in a situation that is over 3.5 decades old!
                                        Ok, but they do investigate before they suspend.

                                        Why do people think, the time that has passed since the event is relevant? It isn't. It still happened, and those who abuse minors don't do this on a one off anyway.
                                        Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post

                                          Even in the early 2000s, I dated someone much older before I turned 18. It was lightly questioned, but generally accepted. I'm not saying it's right, but I do think we need to be reasonable. I think Safesport has a premise everyone can get behind, but the application of Safesport has some real issues. And I think the potential for abuse is huge. Anonymous reporting is an issue. You go to the cops? Your name is on that report if you want it to go anywhere. That deters false reporting. Even if it's proven false in the end, the accusation and investigation alone is enough to ruin an entire career.
                                          There seems to be a lot of misinformation in the potential for abuse. No one has been set down because of an anonymous report. The accused is informed of who the allegations are made by (in the case of minors, initials are used, not full names, to protect their confidentiality). Again, sanctions are made based on the evidence available.

                                          Just because someone is denying the allegations and telling a different story doesnt make them innocent. Again, these are trained and experienced investigators who are doing a thorough job. Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow, especially if you had a different experience with someone.

                                          This also isn't about dating older men, it is about people abusing their power and status and sexually, emotionally and/or physically assaulting others and being held accountable for their actions. Its about forcing young athletes against their will, its about stopping people from thinking this is somehow acceptable behaviour.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X