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Rob Gage

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  • Originally posted by Midge View Post

    That is not the case. There is no opportunity to dispute the allegation before a charge is made, but the accused certainly gets to present evidence before the final decision is made.
    I am on the verge of posting an annotated version of the SafeSport process graphic. I really should be grading lab reports but between this and the fact that there is a cat sleeping on my unknown key, I am not making much progress.
    The Evil Chem Prof

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Peggy View Post

      I am on the verge of posting an annotated version of the SafeSport process graphic. I really should be grading lab reports but between this and the fact that there is a cat sleeping on my unknown key, I am not making much progress.
      Thanks for a much-needed chuckle on this thread! Kudos to you and your cat.

      I would love to see such a graphic about the Safe Sport process. Maybe it would help clarify things for a few people.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Midge View Post

        That is not the case. There is no opportunity to dispute the allegation before a charge is made, but the accused certainly gets to present evidence before the final decision is made.
        Then there's this quote:

        "That’s because SafeSport doesn’t follow due process of law like the U.S. judicial system. In fact, even if charges are dropped and the accused is acquitted in a court of law, SafeSport can still find that individual guilty."

        Which fails to recognize that a person found not guilty in criminal court can still be found guilty in civil court.

        They also bring up the statute of limitations and says there is no statue of limitations for SafeSport but that state statutes vary. Well, some states do not have a statute of limitations, either.
        There is no finding of “guilt” in a civil (or administrative) process. The finding in a civil context is one of liable/not liable. The same constitutional protections (right to counsel, right to a speedy trial, due process, etc.) do not attach in a civil context. In a civil context the burden is most often preponderance not reasonable doubt.

        This blurring of concepts is part of the problem here. The SafeSport process is not a criminal process. It’s an administrative process. There are many forums where you can be administratively debarred separate and apart from any criminal determination. This is one of them. It’s true that there’s an overlap in the venn diagrams between what can get a person excluded and what can get a person criminally convicted but that overlap doesn’t make the SS process a criminal proceeding.

        If you molest a child you can be both criminally convicted and voted off the board of Big Brothers Big Sisters. The fact that there is some overlap in the consequences of the conduct does not mean you are “innocent until proven guilty” or entitled to “due process and a hearing” before BBBS excludes you from your organization.
        Last edited by vxf111; Jun. 17, 2019, 07:02 AM.
        ~Veronica
        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MHM View Post

          Thanks for a much-needed chuckle on this thread! Kudos to you and your cat.

          I would love to see such a graphic about the Safe Sport process. Maybe it would help clarify things for a few people.
          Someone posted it several pages back. It is very helpful.
          *****
          You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

          Comment


          • I have attempted to get a response from the non existent moderator of the Chronicle Facebook page regarding the egregious comments on the Gage article. CHRONICLE IS ACTING IS TERRIBLY BAD FAITH . Stop allowing outright lies on your page.

            Comment


            • Can we have a list of the people supporting the accused or making false statements in all this? With so many comments on the facebook threads, it's really difficult to follow who is saying what.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post
                This article is very informative. It acknowledges the important role of Safesport but does not consider the due process concerns trivial:

                https://horsenetwork.com/2019/06/saf...Gf41bPlVdNXTac

                From the article: "That last detail, the lack of transparency, is a serious point of contention among SafeSport critics. There is no hearing for an individual accused of sexual misconduct, which means there is no opportunity to dispute the allegations until after the final decision is made. Only then can an appeal be lodged."
                I don't have a lot of respect for an article that makes claims that can be invalidated by perusing the SafeSport website for less than 2 minutes:

                https://safesport.org/files/details/109

                After a person has been accused of sexual misconduct, the next step is:

                "Intake process: preliminary information gathering and initial contact with involved parties. Interim measures may be imposed as necessary, and if so, Respondent may request an interim measures hearing at any time." (bold mine)

                Then the investigation begins and a decision is made. If they find there is enough evidence to hand down a sanction, you may request arbitration to dispute that sanction. People who were not sanctioned (like TS) never get to the arbitration process because they were cleared as a result of the intake process & investigation.

                RG was beginning arbitration because all of the above had been completed and they determined there was enough evidence to warrant a lifetime ban, the most severe penalty. And my understanding from the SafeSport response plus the BT statement, additional reports were filed in the interim.

                I am sure this process was horrible for RG and his friends & family. I am so sorry he took his life. My heart breaks from his friends and family who not only are grappling to process the allegations, but now have lost him from their lives.

                Yet willful ignorance helps no one.
                Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                Comment


                • Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
                  Can we have a list of the people supporting the accused or making false statements in all this? With so many comments on the facebook threads, it's really difficult to follow who is saying what.
                  Just export it into a spreadsheet.
                  "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                    Just export it into a spreadsheet.
                    I'm picking up what you're dropping, but at this point there are multiple "hot" threads on facebook, with 800+ comments each. I certainly won't be reading all of it, but several on this thread are alluding that top trainers/riders/some stewards are spitting venom. If we could condense that with their names, that would be easier than trying to filter 20k of comments, even in an excel sheet.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post
                      Lack of transparency? What gives people the courage to finally come forward and overcome their shame and embarrassment is the promise that they won’t be splashed all over the internet the next day. Plus, it’s not always the abused minor who makes the report. Anyone who knew about the abuse is required to report. And retaliation is real - it’s happening now.
                      Yes it is. And it’s disgusting.

                      Comment


                      • Safesport is run by retired and well-versed law enforcement officials. Unfortunately the American judicial system cannot do anything if victims fail to fully cooperate and are prepared to stand in a courtroom and testify. As we have seen with the attacks on victims in this thread and others; one can understand why victims don't want to talk.
                        That is where Safesport comes in. Safesport is not a replacement of the American judicial system. It cannot put people in jail or criminally charge them with anything. It protects the integrity of the sport for minors and protects the club/organization for the sport.

                        The sport is essentially a "club" or an organization. If a person is reported for misconduct, they are investigated by Safesport (an entity outside of USEF's control!). If they are found to have been in misconduct with a minor, they are given sanctions and kicked out of the club. This is not a criminal investigation carried out by law enforcement but it is done by those who are very well trained in their fields.

                        It's pretty cut and dry to me. If you want to engage in such inappropriate behavior, you will be kicked out of the club. And what affect that has on your business is entirely up to you and the actions you have chosen to take in life. Safesport is not setting down or investigating people just for the fun of it. They are not kicking people out of the club because a 16 and 18 year old dated. There are plenty of people who have been investigated and dismissed by Safesport.

                        If the evidence is there or the confessions are there; individuals will be dismissed from the organization. For all we know, Gage could've confessed his actions to individuals within Safesport. Safesport's investigation isn't just taking the victims side of the story and running with it.

                        It just absolutely blows my mind that in a sport, that for decades (!) has been known for sexual misconduct with minors, people are not supporting Safesport and letting the investigations take their due-course. I see mothers on my social media page who have little girls that ride and are under the age of 15 who are ripping Safesport apart because of Gage's suicide. This is painful to me. Safesport DID ITS JOB through the investigation process. If Gage felt he was wrongly accused, he was able to Appeal if he so wished.

                        I personally feel that blaming Safesport for Gage's death is incorrect and an accusation made out of carelessness. Suicide is very sad. No one wants to see anyone take their own life. It causes a lot of anger from those closest to the individual who loved and cared for them. My heart goes out to those closest to Gage who had a positive relationship with him. But that doesn't dismiss what happened to those individuals 30+ years ago who have had to live with that pain all of this time.

                        And for those saying that because this happened 30-40 years ago and individuals shouldn't be investigated because of that length of time/it was a different era back then.... SHAME ON YOU. Sure, Gage probably changed a lot in the last 30-40 years and became a very nice and trusting individual; I dont deny that. 30-40 years ago it was still very much wrong to grope young minor girls, groom them to be your sex partner, corner them in the stall and feel them up, etc. Yes, perhaps most of society turned a blind eye to it but that didn't make it "right". If the victims are saying it wasn't consensual and the accused has answered questions in an investigation honestly that lined up with what the accusations where; it's pretty cut and dry

                        But to blame Safesport for what happened to Gage is ridiculous. How about some accountability to the individuals who have done this to young girls, regardless of where and when. that is where the blame lies. Safesport didn't ruin Gage's career. Safesport didn't drive him to end his life. Personally, I think there was a lot of guilt on behalf of Gage and despite being able to appeal, he couldn't live with this finally being brought to the public's eye.

                        Comment


                        • Am I to understand Kathy Brown Serio's husband went thru a wrongful accusation by SS and the lengthy post was a description of the process they went thru?
                          "Punch him in the wiener. Then leave." AffirmedHope

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CindyCRNA View Post
                            Am I to understand Kathy Brown Serio's husband went thru a wrongful accusation by SS and the lengthy post was a description of the process they went thru?
                            Someone accused her husband and the rant outlines that the process works. Safe Sport looked into the accusation and dismissed it.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                              Someone accused her husband and the rant outlines that the process works. Safe Sport looked into the accusation and dismissed it.
                              So Safesport works EXACTLY how it’s supposed to but she sounds so bitter she’s out to shame and say EVERYONE is lying and out to lay false blame.....I’m sorry, but honestly she sounds exactly like a person I never want to meet! Victim blaming and calling for troops to effectively “witch hunt” is honestly, disgusting!
                              I have cancer but cancer doesnt have me!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by eclipse View Post

                                So Safesport works EXACTLY how it’s supposed to but she sounds so bitter she’s out to shame and say EVERYONE is lying and out to lay false blame.....I’m sorry, but honestly she sounds exactly like a person I never want to meet! Victim blaming and calling for troops to effectively “witch hunt” is honestly, disgusting!
                                Exactly. It’s why I struggle to feel bad. The public posts about their friend’s passing on these people’s pages were written to get everyone riled up.

                                Comment


                                • I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that 1.) having sex with your underage students or clients is WRONG, regardless of the time period or culture 2.) people knew that it was wrong back in the 70s and 80s. That they did it anyway because it was common, not reported and everyone turned a blind eye doesn't make it right and doesn't mean that the perpetrators didn't know it was wrong at the time.

                                  Louder for the people in back: Sex with your minor students was and is WRONG. No matter how they were dressed or how flirty they were. Using your position of authority or power to influence or coerce your minor students into having sex with you was and is, REALLY, REALLY WRONG.

                                  People seem to be a little vague or wish-washy about these concepts, so I thought it needed to be said.

                                  I am very sorry Rob Gage took his own life, and I have lots of sympathy for the people who knew and loved him who are trying to reconcile the man they knew with these allegations. That's a lot of pain to process. I wish them healing and peace.

                                  But blaming the survivors, blaming SafeSport, blaming Anne Kursinski and saying she has blood on her hands(!), blaming anyone BUT the abusers needs to stop. And I hope the people who are making impassioned public statements to that effect are going to be very embarrassed and ashamed when the dust finally clears.
                                  Last edited by McGurk; Jun. 17, 2019, 12:25 PM.
                                  The plural of anecdote is not data.

                                  Comment


                                  • To me, the depth of outrage over SafeSport serves as proof of how serious the problem is in the sport. It illustrates just how widespread and acceptable the sexual abuse of young women and girls is in this sport and how dysfunctional relationships between trainers, students, and parents have somehow become considered to be normal.

                                    It's kind of disheartening.

                                    "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                                    that's even remotely true."

                                    Homer Simpson

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Midge View Post

                                      I feel bad for Vanessa. Clearly mourning her friend and wanting to express her grief. She and her heartbroken friends end up being the vehicle for convicted child molesters and people with axes to grind to get their shots in.
                                      Mourning is one thing. Allowing that much hate and open hostility toward others go on and on for days is another. There are many options available to her if mourning is her only purpose. She could make her page private. She could delete the worst posts. She could step in and ask people to remain civil and remind them that there are victims out there. She could stop the open "murderers!" comments. She could remind people to CYA by curtailing incriminating comments.

                                      Instead it appears from the outside that she's encouraging the negative discussion through complacency. At minimum she is allowing that trash fire of a 'discussion' to carry on unchecked.
                                      "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by McGurk View Post
                                        I am going to go out on a limb her and suggest that 1.) having sex with your underage students or clients is WRONG, regardless of the time period or culture 2.) people knew that it was wrong back in the 70s and 80s. That they did it anyway because it was common, not reported and everyone turned a blind eye doesn't make it right and doesn't mean that the perpetrators didn't know it was wrong at the time.

                                        Louder for the people in back: Sex with your minor students was and is WRONG. No matter how they were dressed or how flirty they were. Using your position of authority or power to influence or coerce your minor students into having sex with you was and is, REALLY, REALLY WRONG.

                                        People seem to be a little vague or wish-washy about these concepts, so I thought it needed to be said.

                                        I am very sorry Rob Gage took his own life, and I have lots of sympathy for the people who knew and loved him who are trying to reconcile the man they knew with these allegations. That's a lot of pain to process. I wish them healing and peace.

                                        But blaming the survivors, blaming SafeSport, blaming Anne Kursinski and saying she has blood on her hands(!), blaming anyone BUT the abusers needs to stop. And I hope the people who are making impassioned public statements to that effect are going to be very embarassed and ashamed when the dust finally clears.
                                        I hope that anyone who has engaged in such a practice in the past, no matter how long ago it was or how fleeting, winds up looking over their shoulder in fear for the rest of their life. And I also hope that this will serve as a very real lesson to those who are even slightly contemplating doing something like this.

                                        P.S. RIP Eros. I loved watching you compete. Looks like you enjoyed your retirement.

                                        Comment


                                        • If during the investigation of an accusation, SafeSport investigators have reason to believe that the accuser intentionally logged a false accusation would they initiate their own investigation and sanction the accuser? Or would the accused need to file their own accusation against the false accuser for an investigation to be started?

                                          Think about the Kathy Serio case and whether it's a case of her husband being falsely accused and if yes was the accuser sanctioned. Or was it more a case of the accuser made a legitimate and in good-faith accusation that SafeSport investigated and deemed to NOT be a violation of the code of conduct.

                                          Comment

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