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  • Originally posted by IPEsq View Post

    Once again, it's not USEF's word or the word of USEF's attorney. USEF does not investigate or hand down this ban. It is the word of the U.S. Center for SafeSport. The steps involved in a full investigation are listed in the center's policies and procedures that are readily available online.
    Yes!!!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mac123 View Post

      It may be helpful for you to indicate what information is incomplete....
      I can’t say anything more without giving my actual identity.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Didi View Post

        I may have an obligation to report to SafeSport/USEF. I have no obligation to report what steps I have taken to people who are full of vitriole and have no interest in constructive conversation. How I have handled this is not up for your debate and use as a weapon against civil discourse.
        My post was a statement of opinion that, if there are pros falsely accusing other pros of misconduct covered under Safe Sport in order to advance themselves at the expense of the falsely accused, then the sport/industry/hunter world whatever you want to call it is pretty far under water ethically speaking.

        I never said *you* had an obligation to report anyone.

        Though if people know about such actions and do nothing, things will not get better.../Lorax mode off
        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

          My post was a statement of opinion that, if there are pros falsely accusing other pros of misconduct covered under Safe Sport in order to advance themselves at the expense of the falsely accused, then the sport/industry/hunter world whatever you want to call it is pretty far under water ethically speaking.

          I never said *you* had an obligation to report anyone.

          Though if people know about such actions and do nothing, things will not get better.../Lorax mode off
          Wellllllllllllllllllllll... We already know not to report a shamateur unless you want to be blacklisted. When there's this much prestige/reputation/ money involved, it wouldn't surprise me if someone decided to use Safesport as a means to temporarily get rid of the competition. That's why I'm against anonymous reporting.

          In the end? These issues are largely criminal issues and should be handled that way.
          Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post

            Wellllllllllllllllllllll... We already know not to report a shamateur unless you want to be blacklisted. When there's this much prestige/reputation/ money involved, it wouldn't surprise me if someone decided to use Safesport as a means to temporarily get rid of the competition. That's why I'm against anonymous reporting.

            In the end? These issues are largely criminal issues and should be handled that way.
            I'm right there with you. This is a law enforcement issue, and some people can and will try to take down the competition any chance they get. Not that this is false allegations or anything of the sort, but SafeSport should be secondary to a law enforcement investigation and not function independently for these very reasons.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post

              Wellllllllllllllllllllll... We already know not to report a shamateur unless you want to be blacklisted. When there's this much prestige/reputation/ money involved, it wouldn't surprise me if someone decided to use Safesport as a means to temporarily get rid of the competition. That's why I'm against anonymous reporting.

              In the end? These issues are largely criminal issues and should be handled that way.
              I'm beginning to think that most people here have not bothered to actually read the SafeSport policies. If they have read them, then they must not have understood what they read, or there would not be so many uninformed posters here.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by skydy View Post

                I'm beginning to think that most people here have not bothered to actually read the SafeSport policies. If they have read them, then they must not have understood what they read, or there would not be so many uninformed posters here.
                I did around the time of the training. Doesn't mean I trust their process or investigative abilities. I can see turning it over to law enforcement and acting on those outcomes. I don't think they should be investigating.
                Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

                Comment


                • I find it really beyond comprehension when riders and trainers are finally held up to the same standards we are in other industries where minors are involved. Suddenly their rights are being trampled and “innocent” people are being persecuted.

                  Hypocrisy, thy name is “you.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Foxy&Co View Post

                    I'm right there with you. This is a law enforcement issue, and some people can and will try to take down the competition any chance they get. Not that this is false allegations or anything of the sort, but SafeSport should be secondary to a law enforcement investigation and not function independently for these very reasons.
                    That's an interesting point. Why not just have the rule be, "If a person has been found guilty in a court of law, Safesport will take action to ban them from competition" or something like that. Then the person has the due process guaranteed in our constitution, and we can have confidence in the outcome.

                    This reminds me of what was going on at college campuses, where a female student would make an allegation against a male student, there would be some non-transparent procedure that emphasized "believing the accuser," and the male student would get expelled without having any real rights. There has been a lot of pushback and I believe legal action stemming from those tribunals, and it sounds like Safesport is ripe for the same.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post

                      I did around the time of the training. Doesn't mean I trust their process or investigative abilities. I can see turning it over to law enforcement and acting on those outcomes. I don't think they should be investigating.
                      IIRC, part of the Safe Sport process is to not only inform SS of a violation, but also inform the police if the complaint is of the nature of sexual assault.
                      Jennifer Baas
                      It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

                      Comment


                      • Here's an apropros article from Atlantic magazine about how these rape tribunals went so wrong on college campuses:

                        https://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...policy/538974/

                        Comment


                        • Maybe I have more faith in USEF and SafeSport than average.

                          Honest question, because I do not follow suspensions and penalties closely. How many cases have there been with 100% innocent people being incorrectly and inappropriately sanctioned by USEF?

                          I can name you plenty of cases where the guilty were unfairly punished, with either the “guilt” being distributed disproportionately (aka someone taking the fall), or the guilty receiving a more harsh/more lenient punishment than anticipated.

                          But it I have faith that if someone is innocent and falsely accused, it will come to light.

                          I also have faith that situations that lie in the gray area with non-predatory intentions, like the 18 year old and 20 year old relationship example, will not be punished.

                          Is there a justifiable reason other than general skepticism to believe otherwise?

                          As mentioned up thread, USEF membership is voluntary. We are not talking about constitutional rights here.
                          Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post

                            I did around the time of the training. Doesn't mean I trust their process or investigative abilities. I can see turning it over to law enforcement and acting on those outcomes. I don't think they should be investigating.
                            Do you realize who "they" are?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mac123 View Post

                              It may be helpful for you to indicate what information is incomplete....
                              Based on reading the thread I’m guessing that there could be more than two people who have filed complaints.
                              The Evil Chem Prof

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post

                                I did around the time of the training. Doesn't mean I trust their process or investigative abilities. I can see turning it over to law enforcement and acting on those outcomes. I don't think they should be investigating.
                                But also think about this... the penalty is not a criminal penalty that is being handed down. SafeSport is not sending anyone to prison. They are merely recommending a sanction to the respective NGB, which the NGB then is the party to implement the sanction.

                                Think about it in the context of various professional licensing. I am an attorney and will use my profession as an example. There are a LOT of things that can get my license suspended or revoked that wouldn't necessarily be something I could be criminally charged for. One example might be commingling client funds with my own. Mere commingling, meaning, the money lives in the same account, does not mean I have necessarily done any embezzling or taken money for fees not earned or thus committed any crime. But because it could easily allow for that, the rules generally prohibit that practice. Violating the rules is taken seriously. There are various other examples of dishonesty and the like which are not necessarily criminal but which calls into question an attorney's fitness to practice law. Thus, if there's a complaint, the disciplinary committee may make a recommendation to the state bar for sanctions against the attorney, which could include permanently revoking the license to practice, as an entirely separate action from any criminal case. I don't hear many people complaining about wrongfully sanctioned attorneys. And yes, that kind of discipline surely impacts one's livelihood and reputation.

                                Like a professional licensing body, SafeSport only has jurisdiction over certain individuals who are under the governance and disciplinary jurisdiction of USOC or a NGB. It's not a replacement for the courts. It's not really any different than USEF implementing a ban for someone who kills horses for insurance money. That also doesn't mean that there couldn't be a court action for insurance fraud. It just means the NGB doesn't really want that person around any horse sports over which it has authority.
                                Last edited by IPEsq; Jun. 13, 2019, 11:37 PM. Reason: Typos

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by HLMom View Post

                                  That's an interesting point. Why not just have the rule be, "If a person has been found guilty in a court of law, Safesport will take action to ban them from competition" or something like that. Then the person has the due process guaranteed in our constitution, and we can have confidence in the outcome.
                                  Where is SafeSport (putting aside the issue of it not being a governmental actor) depriving anyone of "life, liberty, or property" without due process of law?

                                  Comment


                                  • Lots of people on fb shouting about how people’s livelihoods & jobs are at stake if they get safe sport suspension. You can still train at your own farms. Go to local shows.
                                    As others have stated... most other sports have not had any issues with having to comply to SS rules. Most companies & business have policies against sexual harassment. The horse industry needs to get out of their bubble.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by IPEsq View Post

                                      But also think about this... the penalty is not a criminal penalty that is being handed down. SafeSport is not sending anyone to prison. They are merely recommending a sanction to the respective NGB, which the NGB then is the party to implement the sanction.

                                      Think about it in the context of various professional licensing. I am an attorney and will use my profession as an example. There are a LOT of things that can get my license suspended or revoked that wouldn't necessarily be something I could be criminally charged for. One example might be commingling client funds with my own. Mere commingling, meaning, the money lives in the same account, does not mean I have necessarily done any embezzling or taken money for fees not earned or thus committed any crime. But because it could easily allow for that, the rules generally prohibit that practice. Violating the rules is taken seriously. There are various other examples of dishonesty and the like which are not necessarily criminal but which calls into question an attorney's fitness to practice law. Thus, if there's a complaint, the disciplinary committee may make a recommendation to the state bar for sanctions against the attorney, which could include permanently revoking the license to practice, as an entirely separate action from any criminal case. I don't hear many people complaining about wrongfully sanctioned attorneys. And yes, that kind of discipline surely impacts one's livelihood and reputation.

                                      Like a professional licensing body, SafeSport only has jurisdiction over certain individuals who are under the governance and disciplinary jurisdiction of USOC or a NGB. It's not a replacement for the courts. It's not really any different than USEF implementing a ban for someone who kills horses for insurance money. That also doesn't mean that if there couldn't be a court action for insurance fraud. It just means the NGB doesn't really want that person around any horse sports over which it has authority.
                                      Thank you for the clear and concise explanation .... which I know will continue to fall on deaf ears with the "due process" and "violation of constitutional rights" arguments. Again - membership in a club when one does not abide by the rules, is NOT a constitutional right.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by IPEsq View Post

                                        But also think about this... the penalty is not a criminal penalty that is being handed down. SafeSport is not sending anyone to prison. They are merely recommending a sanction to the respective NGB, which the NGB then is the party to implement the sanction.

                                        Think about it in the context of various professional licensing. I am an attorney and will use my profession as an example. There are a LOT of things that can get my license suspended or revoked that wouldn't necessarily be something I could be criminally charged for. One example might be commingling client funds with my own. Mere commingling, meaning, the money lives in the same account, does not mean I have necessarily done any embezzling or taken money for fees not earned or thus committed any crime. But because it could easily allow for that, the rules generally prohibit that practice. Violating the rules is taken seriously. There are various other examples of dishonesty and the like which are not necessarily criminal but which calls into question an attorney's fitness to practice law. Thus, if there's a complaint, the disciplinary committee may make a recommendation to the state bar for sanctions against the attorney, which could include permanently revoking the license to practice, as an entirely separate action from any criminal case. I don't hear many people complaining about wrongfully sanctioned attorneys. And yes, that kind of discipline surely impacts one's livelihood and reputation.

                                        Like a professional licensing body, SafeSport only has jurisdiction over certain individuals who are under the governance and disciplinary jurisdiction of USOC or a NGB. It's not a replacement for the courts. It's not really any different than USEF implementing a ban for someone who kills horses for insurance money. That also doesn't mean that if there couldn't be a court action for insurance fraud. It just means the NGB doesn't really want that person around any horse sports over which it has authority.
                                        I can see that. I think as I watch it play out, maybe I'll feel better. My biggest concern is that sexual abuse of any kind should go straight to law enforcement, kind of like states who require licensed professionals to report arrests and then disciplinary action on the license may follow. Ideally, any sexual abuse cases should be handled by law enforcement and then Safesport reacts accordingly after the verdict. At least in my perfect little world (which is full of caffeine because I haven't slept in two days).
                                        Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post

                                          I can see that. I think as I watch it play out, maybe I'll feel better. My biggest concern is that sexual abuse of any kind should go straight to law enforcement, kind of like states who require licensed professionals to report arrests and then disciplinary action on the license may follow. Ideally, any sexual abuse cases should be handled by law enforcement and then Safesport reacts accordingly after the verdict. At least in my perfect little world (which is full of caffeine because I haven't slept in two days).
                                          Perhaps when you have had some sleep you will realize that Safe Sport is addressing a very prevalent problem that will not be solved only by kicking convicted rapists out of sports organizations.

                                          There is an enormous problem of child abuse in Sport and it must be addressed. Doing nothing has not worked out very well for the victims.

                                          Comment

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