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Can we talk about SafeSport?

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    #61
    Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

    No. What was published was one attorney’s interpretation that really isn’t going to hold up in court.
    But who wants to be the one to test that presumption? Allegations can ruin a career even if they are false.

    Why have a rule if it's unenforceable, illegal or people aren't going to realistically be able to abide by it?

    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

    Comment


      #62
      I moved out and went to college when I was 16. I was pretty much the only minor everywhere I went. I spent plenty of time with my adult, male trainer that was unsupervised when he drove me and my horse back and forth from school. I was perfectly capable of taking care of myself. Fortunately my sport has already broken ties with USEF over their stupidity on other matters.

      No mourners, no funerals

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by RugBug View Post

        But who wants to be the one to test that presumption? Allegations can ruin a career even if they are false.

        Why have a rule if it's unenforceable, illegal or people aren't going to realistically be able to abide by it?
        That’s life. It happens all the time. People are freaking out because it now could impact them. That’s just sad IMO.

        And really “are people going to realistically be able to abide by it”? Well let’s throw out all the laws. Face it. Y’all are butt hurt because this impacts you. Not that you actually care about abuse.

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by trubandloki View Post

          And the actual rule. Which does not include the exclusion you are saying is there.
          I’m saying the exclusion will probably be clarified. It’s how the law works. People pass dumb crap and the appellate courts clarify. One attorney’s interpretation is just that.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

            That’s life. It happens all the time. People are freaking out because it now could impact them. That’s just sad IMO.

            And really “are people going to realistically be able to abide by it”? Well let’s throw out all the laws. Face it. Y’all are butt hurt because this impacts you. Not that you actually care about abuse.
            Or.... because it doesn't actually do anything about abuse. This policy is going to effect a lot of day to day operations type stuff but honestly would be fairly easy for someone with a little bit of tech knowledge to skirt. How many kiddie diddlers work in pairs or groups? Look at all the crap with the gymnasts- parents and other adults knew something was going on but no one spoke up. People literally sell their children into sex slavery and we think that "Ms G can't talk to little Suzy without her mommy knowing" is the way to curtail it???? It's like there's a tornado coming so you want to blow back at it with a box fan. These policies are nothing more than what some politicians and bureaucrats dreamed up to be able to feel better about themselves aka let's pretend we care about the kiddies while we do jack squat about them being shot up routinely in schools.
            No mourners, no funerals

            Comment


              #66
              USEF has to follow SS by law.

              SS has not been drawn up by equestrians. I expect it's been drawn up with a mental image of 11 year old female gymnasts or swimmers with male coaches and scheduled weekly lessons. Personal texting not needed and creepy.


              The complication here is that many barn activities involve a minor in an employee position, paid or not.

              They also involve a minor as the buyer of services from the barn other than lessons and training (horse care).

              And they also involve a great deal of farm life.

              It's not functional to block out all the daily back and forth that these days takes place on phobe messages. Where is the grain, the saddle, I'm running late, etc.

              Note though that the article said they would only proceed on complaints. And I doubt they would proceed on a complaint that was all business posts.

              At some point they may well need to produce clarification on teens as employees and as boarding clients.

              It's also of note that most barns these days are run by women and the clients are girls. This isn't true in many sports where girls participate.

              The rules sound silly because we are imagining a continuum of teen girls, young women assistants, and older women trainers, all of whom participate in a range of barn activity and practically live there.

              Imagine if you had a lesson program all girls that went up to age 13, all the trainers and assistants were men. Would you want the 21 year old male assistant coach sending a 13 year old girl messages with a personal aspect at 10 pm at night? Creepy, right? Thats what SS has in mind.

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by tabula rashah View Post

                Or.... because it doesn't actually do anything about abuse. This policy is going to effect a lot of day to day operations type stuff but honestly would be fairly easy for someone with a little bit of tech knowledge to skirt. How many kiddie diddlers work in pairs or groups? Look at all the crap with the gymnasts- parents and other adults knew something was going on but no one spoke up. People literally sell their children into sex slavery and we think that "Ms G can't talk to little Suzy without her mommy knowing" is the way to curtail it???? It's like there's a tornado coming so you want to blow back at it with a box fan. These policies are nothing more than what some politicians and bureaucrats dreamed up to be able to feel better about themselves aka let's pretend we care about the kiddies while we do jack squat about them being shot up routinely in schools.
                Again then we should throw out all laws? Face it you’re inconvenienced and that’s why you’re mad.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                  Again then we should throw out all laws. Face it you’re inconvenienced and that’s why you’re mad.
                  A) I'm not inconvenienced as I don't participate in any USEF disciplines. I just abhor abject stupidity.
                  B) I'm guessing reading comprehension isn't your thing. I want tougher laws that will actually do something, not crappy placating ones.
                  No mourners, no funerals

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by tabula rashah View Post

                    A) I'm not inconvenienced as I don't participate in any USEF disciplines. I just abhor abject stupidity.
                    B) I'm guessing reading comprehension isn't your thing. I want tougher laws that will actually do something, not crappy placating ones.
                    There is no law that could be created to stop people from being predators. You will never be happy. My reading comprehension is just fine. Horse sports are not unique and that the failure of everyone bitching. Millions of kids not involved in horses have coaches, rely on coaches, sleep away from home with their coaches. Horse sports are not special in this regard. I have no idea why y’all think it is but it’s not.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by AskMyAccountant.17 View Post
                      Ten, fifteen years ago there wasn't social media/texting.
                      Precisely, and exactly what makes the whole thing ridiculous. They are targetting modern advances in technology to address a problem that existed decades/centuries/millennia BEFORE said modern technology.

                      It's a scapegoat. A knee-jerk reaction to do something (anything!) coupled with typical suspicion of things you don't really understand, ie the Internet. And worse yet, it's a scapegoat in which USEF - a horseback riding organization - gets to dictate how we use & interact with modern technology in the future. That should not be within their domain.

                      These are not kids falling for 50-year-old men posing as college boys in chat rooms. This does nothing to stop the age-old grooming process we've seen in this sport. It just does away with the evidence modern technology had the potential to provide. It is band-aids, babies & bathwater all wrapped up in one.
                      Last edited by dags; May. 31, 2019, 03:18 PM.
                      EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                        That’s life. It happens all the time. People are freaking out because it now could impact them. That’s just sad IMO.
                        It's sad that people don't want their life/careers ruined for no good reason other than they texted a minor or where in a truck with one without another adult, etc? Or sad that the time and expense of a court case would be a huge burden?



                        Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                        Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                          It's sad that people don't want their life/careers ruined for no good reason other than they texted a minor or where in a truck with one without another adult, etc? Or sad that the time and expense of a court case would be a huge burden?


                          Perception is reality. How hard is it to group text? I mean there are apps for that. This is how life has been outside of the horse industry for a long time. Welcome. Again everyone is up in arms because it finally impacts their little world.

                          Ya’lls bubble must be nice. Wish I had one. Instead I suffer with reality, real life and the inconvenience of things because well, I live in the real world. Maybe just maybe, if people cared more about abuse then their hobby we wouldn’t be here. But again that’s not reality. People care more about their hobby than someone else or their own self.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            I'm not sure why people are saying the laws against sexual assault of children aren't tough enough. They are these days very strict, and when someone is actually charged and prosecuted, the punishment is strong a life altering.

                            The problem is of course that much of this happens within existing social networks, and where the children and the parents fear huge material losses if they rock the boat. And as we've seen recently these dynamics certainly persist into the lives of young adult women, particularly in the entertainment business.

                            The laws against sexual interference with a minor are strong. But clearly that's still not enough to stop all the coaches, team doctors, uncles, step fathers, friendly neighbors, mom's new boyfriends, etc.

                            So the SS rules are I think about reducing opportunity and giving its members some concrete guidelines for understanding when things are inappropriate.

                            Remember these are not USEF rules. They are SS rules and USEF is legally required to adopt them even if they aren't all a good fit for the horse industry.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
                              I'm not sure why people are saying the laws against sexual assault of children aren't tough enough. They are these days very strict, and when someone is actually charged and prosecuted, the punishment is strong a life altering.

                              The problem is of course that much of this happens within existing social networks, and where the children and the parents fear huge material losses if they rock the boat. And as we've seen recently these dynamics certainly persist into the lives of young adult women, particularly in the entertainment business.

                              The laws against sexual interference with a minor are strong. But clearly that's still not enough to stop all the coaches, team doctors, uncles, step fathers, friendly neighbors, mom's new boyfriends, etc.

                              So the SS rules are I think about reducing opportunity and giving its members some concrete guidelines for understanding when things are inappropriate.

                              Remember these are not USEF rules. They are SS rules and USEF is legally required to adopt them even if they aren't all a good fit for the horse industry.
                              Because all these things are fine until it impacts them. Sports have had ample opportunity to self police and they failed. Also note, it’s only the H/J that routinely freaks out over it.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                originally posted by scribbler
                                Remember these are not USEF rules. They are SS rules and USEF is legally required to adopt them even if they aren't all a good fit for the horse industry.
                                I keep seeing people say this. These are in fact USEF's proactive policies. SafeSport is only the governing body that deals with reporting, enforcement, physical violations, emotional or physical misconduct and criminal conduct. USEF is a NGB that is adopting proactive polices.

                                This is directly from SafeSport's code: "An LAO, NGB or the USOC may adopt proactive policies that apply to Covered Individuals and set standards for professional boundaries, minimize the appearance of impropriety and have the effect of preventing boundary violations and prohibiting grooming tactics.2 Tailored to a specific sport, context, legal structure or constituency, such policies may address overnight travel rules (e.g., preventing unrelated Covered Adults and Minors from sharing rooms under specified circumstances), massages and rubdowns, social media and electronic communications, photography, locker rooms, one-on-one meetings and gifting. If a Covered Individual violates a proactive policy established by the Covered Individual’s LAO, NGB or the USOC, it shall also be a violation of the Code."

                                The opening line from Sonja Keating's interpretation is this: U.S. Equestrian Federation representatives announced May 22 that additional policies were being added to the organization’s SafeSport practices.

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by Reddfox View Post

                                  I keep seeing people say this. These are in fact USEF's proactive policies. SafeSport is only the governing body that deals with reporting, enforcement, physical violations, emotional or physical misconduct and criminal conduct. USEF is a NGB that is adopting proactive polices.

                                  This is directly from SafeSport's code: "An LAO, NGB or the USOC may adopt proactive policies that apply to Covered Individuals and set standards for professional boundaries, minimize the appearance of impropriety and have the effect of preventing boundary violations and prohibiting grooming tactics.2 Tailored to a specific sport, context, legal structure or constituency, such policies may address overnight travel rules (e.g., preventing unrelated Covered Adults and Minors from sharing rooms under specified circumstances), massages and rubdowns, social media and electronic communications, photography, locker rooms, one-on-one meetings and gifting. If a Covered Individual violates a proactive policy established by the Covered Individual’s LAO, NGB or the USOC, it shall also be a violation of the Code."

                                  The opening line from Sonja Keating's interpretation is this: U.S. Equestrian Federation representatives announced May 22 that additional policies were being added to the organization’s SafeSport practices.
                                  Ok. Interesting. Then there is room to refine the policies as needed. I'm sure if they prove unworkable, they will be refined.

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    I’m an eventer and I also think many aspects of Safe Sport are problematic. I think people are less familiar with it in eventing land because it only currently applies to adult competitors and owners at Prelim or above. USEA hasn’t adopted Safe Sport for the lower levels. No training or certification for parents or junior competitors is currently required, so many people aren’t aware of it yet. Eventing has even more of a culture of expecting young riders and pony clubbers to learn horse care and independence from a young age, with the support of instructors, volunteers, and parents. It will mean the 17 year old and 18 year olds can’t be alone together, even to walk their xc course, and I’m still amazed that many people don’t see it as a problem that my 17 year old daughter couldn’t drive herself to her lesson and take a lesson with her trainer without my presence. I ride with the same trainers and trust them, but I don’t need to be there supervising every interaction. She wants to be a working student, as I was, and I think any sane trainer would stop taking on working students if these rules are fully implemented.

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      Generally in most cases of ongoing sexual interference with minors, it comes out in the trial that various people suspected or even knew things, but did not act or even refused to believe children who reported the issue.

                                      I think the SS rules in general are designed so that everyone involved understands what are considered precursor or red flag behavior, and can intervene earlier.

                                      Lots of times, we get red flags from people and avoid them, or modify our behavior. The adult version would be seeing that Joe in our office is on the make or a bit handsy, and we just keep a polite distance because we aren't interested. The kid version might be thinking Mr. X the gym teacher is creepy and giving him a wide berth.

                                      But those of us with good radar for creepsters don't necessarily take it upon ourselves to monitor what the creepsters do with everyone else.

                                      The SS procedures give everyone some guidelines as to what is red flag behavior, and require that everyone involved be alert and able to report concerns.

                                      The details of that behavior may need some fine tuning.

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

                                        So the SS rules are I think about reducing opportunity and giving its members some concrete guidelines for understanding when things are inappropriate.

                                        Remember these are not USEF rules. They are SS rules and USEF is legally required to adopt them even if they aren't all a good fit for the horse industry.
                                        This.

                                        These rules give USEF and prosecutors a really powerful tool to prove intent. If someone is accused, the communications that are exclusively with the minor in defiance of the rule will demonstrate that the perpetrator intended to exclude the parents or other adults from the conversation.

                                        No parent of a child of a well-respected trainer or coach would try ot get that coach arrested for a one on one text about grain or turn out. It's when a parent suspects something and can point to those private messages that this rule will make a difference.

                                        Some people seem to think there will be this N Korea-level intrusion into personal communications. That's an over-reaction. This rules protects trainers from false accusations, too.
                                        BLACK LIVES MATTER

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          As much of a pain as many people seem to feel this will be, the main thing is awareness. Parents need to be aware of the interactions their children are having. Adults need to be aware of how they interact with minors. Minors need to be aware of how they perceive attention from adults.

                                          No one is going to go crazy over texting about regular barn interactions - it’s the trainer who texts the minor they’ve gained weight and aren’t allowed to ride the ponies until they’re skinny again. Or the trainer who texts the minor they they looked good in the shirt they were wearing that day. Those are the texts that should never happen but they do quite often and the parents are completely unaware.

                                          Working students can can get written permission to ride in cars with adults. Again, it’s about keeping the parents aware even if they don’t want to be.

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