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  • #41
    Does this apply to all adults interacting with those under the age of 18? As in, do I need to kick the teenagers from the barn off of my Instagram and Facebook? That would make me sad.

    Comment


    • #42
      Social media and the availability of 24/7 communication can be problematic even for adults (not just for riders and owners, but also for trainers with difficult clients).

      But I agree the lack of regulation over phone conversations seems odd. In fact, social media and texting at least allows the person who is being violated to screenshot and save the inappropriate or offensive communication as a record of the improper conduct. It's often much harder to prove something that takes place over the phone or in person.

      I'm an adult and don't have children, so I'm still debating what I think about this, but my first question is enforcement. God knows there are plenty of reasonable rules that people manage to work around. It will be interesting to see how rigorously this is enforced and if people really adhere to it.
      Check out the latest Fortune's Fool novel, Courage to the Sticking Place!

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      • #43
        Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post
        Why do trainers have to text/contact minors or any student on a regular basis? That seems odd in and of itself. Seriously, people managed to communicate with their trainers before cell phones and Facebook. I mean do you really need to be in constant communication with your coach?
        At my barn most of the teenagers are fully responsible for their horse in everything except actually writing the checks. Horse needs more grain? Trainer texts the teenager who then takes care of it. Farrier found something during their trim? Trainer lets the teenager know. Trainer is running behind and needs to push their lesson back an hour? They text the teenager to let them know. Most of the riders at my barn are between the ages of 16 and 18, are driving themselves to the barn, and are very independent from their parents in regards to their equestrian activities.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by rhymes_with_orange View Post
          Does this apply to all adults interacting with those under the age of 18? As in, do I need to kick the teenagers from the barn off of my Instagram and Facebook? That would make me sad.
          Here is the Link that is in the COTH article.

          This is a copy and paste from the article describing who the rules apply to:
          1. Adult members who have regular contact with amateur athletes who are minors;
          2. Any adult authorized by USEF to have regular contact with or author-ity over an amateur athlete who is a minor; and
          3. Adult staff and board members at USEF.(Collectively “Applicable Adult” for the purposes of this Policy.)
          Open and transparent
          • Absent emergency circumstances, if an Applicable Adult with authority over minor athletes needs to communicate directly with a minor athlete via electronic communications (including social media), another Applicable Adult or the minor’s legal guardian must be copied.
          • If a minor athlete communicates to the Applicable Adult (with authority over the minor athlete) privately first, said Applicable Adult should respond to the minor athlete with a copy to another Applicable Adult or the minor’s legal guardian.
          • When an Applicable Adult with authority over minor athletes com-municates electronically to the entire team, said Applicable Adult will copy another adult.
          • Minor athletes may “friend” the organization’s official page.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by rhymes_with_orange View Post

            At my barn most of the teenagers are fully responsible for their horse in everything except actually writing the checks. Horse needs more grain? Trainer texts the teenager who then takes care of it. Farrier found something during their trim? Trainer lets the teenager know. Trainer is running behind and needs to push their lesson back an hour? They text the teenager to let them know. Most of the riders at my barn are between the ages of 16 and 18, are driving themselves to the barn, and are very independent from their parents in regards to their equestrian activities.
            Despite what the one attorney said from the USEF, I feel like this is meant to be all non-business related texts. It wouldn’t hold up otherwise. Also, maybe, just maybe, this wouldn’t be necessary if parents were more involved with their kids lives and vetted any adult they let their kids interact with.

            I agree as stated by the attorney it’s a ridiculous over-reach. However, the examples you give, should be once in awhile. People are acting like the industry will implode which led to my question of how often do you actually text with your trainer? Me not much. As a working student? Nope. We also used radios to reach people so, I am perplexed by this whole “Oh no I can’t be Facebook friends with my trainer!!!!”

            That was my point about pre-text and Facebook. It’s not the end of the world.

            Again the horse world is not that different from other sports where kids are independent. H/J people just like to think they are special cases.

            ETA: I’m still shocked that people think things like this are a good idea until it applies them. It’s disgusting really.
            Last edited by Denali6298; May. 31, 2019, 11:57 AM.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

              Despite what the one attorney said from the USEF, I feel like this is meant to be all non-business related texts. It wouldn’t hold up otherwise. Also, maybe, just maybe, this wouldn’t be necessary if parents were more involved with their kids lives and vetted any adult they let their kids interact with.
              So, we've been watching shows like 'To Catch a Predator' for a while now. Parents now the dangers. Kids/Teens will figure out ways to do what they want. 'Parents need to be more involved' isn't a blanket fix. Many predators actually come across as very caring and safe and like they are looking out for the kids best interest. It's how they can do what they can do for so long. They know how to get people on their side and in their pocket.

              Originally posted by Denali6298
              I agree as stated by the attorney it’s a ridiculous over-reach. However, the examples you give, should be once in awhile. People are acting like the industry will implode which led to my question of how often do you actually text with your trainer? Me not much. As a working student? Nope.
              I text my trainer a few times a week. More if shows/trips are coming up. It's how we communicate when I'm not at the barn. Now, I'm not a junior, so no big deal, but even as a infrequent user and hater of all things phone, I would no be pretty bummed to not have it and not be able to text.


              Again the horse world is not that different from other sports where kids are independent. H/J people just like to think they are special cases.
              there are some unique things about riding vs. other sports. We constantly tell newbies/owners to be more involved in their horse's care, etc. These rules cause a step...or two...back for many because of their age. There are plenty of teens doing the majority of the communication regarding their horses/lessons.

              Heck, we have a 12 yr old at the barn who has had to do most communications, setting up lessons, rescheduling, etc with the trainer since she was 9. Her mom chose to have it that way to teach her life skills. We have another that has been doing that since she was 6...oh and she lives on site and has followed the adults around since she was 5...she's 11 now. We are her only contact to a sport she loves but would otherwise have no access too.


              At the end of the day, the adults who are not an issue will figure this out...and the ones that are an issue will figure out how to continue doing what they are doing. Jimmy Williams didn't need a texting or social media. And he may have been held accountable sooner if he had.

              Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
              Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                So, we've been watching shows like 'To Catch a Predator' for a while now. Parents now the dangers. Kids/Teens will figure out ways to do what they want. 'Parents need to be more involved' isn't a blanket fix. Many predators actually come across as very caring and safe and like they are looking out for the kids best interest. It's how they can do what they can do for so long. They know how to get people on their side and in their pocket.



                I text my trainer a few times a week. More if shows/trips are coming up. It's how we communicate when I'm not at the barn. Now, I'm not a junior, so no big deal, but even as a infrequent user and hater of all things phone, I would no be pretty bummed to not have it and not be able to text.




                there are some unique things about riding vs. other sports. We constantly tell newbies/owners to be more involved in their horse's care, etc. These rules cause a step...or two...back for many because of their age. There are plenty of teens doing the majority of the communication regarding their horses/lessons.

                Heck, we have a 12 yr old at the barn who has had to do most communications, setting up lessons, rescheduling, etc with the trainer since she was 9. Her mom chose to have it that way to teach her life skills. We have another that has been doing that since she was 6...oh and she lives on site and has followed the adults around since she was 5...she's 11 now. We are her only contact to a sport she loves but would otherwise have no access too.


                At the end of the day, the adults who are not an issue will figure this out...and the ones that are an issue will figure out how to continue doing what they are doing. Jimmy Williams didn't need a texting or social media. And he may have been held accountable sooner if he had.
                I never said it was a blanket fix. Check it out. My Mom made me think I was making independent decisions. Guess what? I wasn’t. She was ALWAYS aware of who, what, when and how. I’ve been on travel teams for soccer, got myself to skating lessons, ski trips with my team that she didn’t go on, and yes the barn. But she kept tabs despite my younger self thinking I was doing on my own. She managed to teach me those lessons and still be involved in the background. She did this weird thing called parenting.

                My original question was asked because I don’t text my trainer as much as you even with shows, off property schooling etc. I don’t, because my Mom taught me independence while still keeping tabs.


                ETA: Everyone who’s worried about the trainer who takes on the parent roll for kids who have parents that don’t care, those are THE most at risk kids. That’s who safe sport is trying to protect.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                  My original question was asked because I don’t text my trainer as much as you even with shows, off property schooling etc. I don’t, because my Mom taught me independence while still keeping tabs.
                  Texting a trainer in your mind some how equals a failed parent and a student not being independent?

                  I do text my trainer. That is how we set up lessons. That is how we confirm who is going where when. That is how we confirm who is trucking with who. That is how we discuss how something is healing (just a FYI for them). That is how I get their opinion on something I am thinking about buying.
                  Oh the list goes on. Neither one of us is a phone call kind of person. Texting allows me to ask when I think of it and her to answer when she has a minute to answer.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by trubandloki View Post

                    Texting a trainer in your mind some how equals a failed parent and a student not being independent?

                    I do text my trainer. That is how we set up lessons. That is how we confirm who is going where when. That is how we confirm who is trucking with who. That is how we discuss how something is healing (just a FYI for them). That is how I get their opinion on something I am thinking about buying.
                    Oh the list goes on. Neither one of us is a phone call kind of person. Texting allows me to ask when I think of it and her to answer when she has a minute to answer.
                    Rugbug said she texts several times a week due to shows. Honestly I text back and forth with my trainer maybe twice a month on average. I don’t need to talk to her that much to get to a show or whatever. I never said that was failed parenting I just said the way my mom taught me independence while being in the background is WHY I don’t need to constantly talk to my trainer.

                    If parents were involved in what their kids were doing it would go along way. I’m not saying accompany the kid everywhere just KNOW who, what, where, when and how. Yes kids will do what they want. I did. That’s life. Nothing is absolute except death. However, that’s no excuse for parents to not know the answers to who, what, where, when and how.

                    ETA: My trainers as a junior also taught me how to not be needy with them. That’s how it used to be. The industry created co-depended clients. I get less text messages from my barn where I supply the grain and have complete control over my horse than most people. Why? I don’t need a reminder of when to buy grain and all communication about vet and farrier issues is between me and the vet or farrier. I don’t need nor have I ever needed a trainer for that.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      As a working student in the "old days," we all carried walkie talkies to the ring to communicate with the trainer, how many trips out so and so is, etc. You had to because with horses going in 3-4 different rings, it was essential to communicate. now that is all done by text I am sure. It would in fact be extremely inconvenient to be the "other adult" added to this chain....and distracting.

                      There is no way a working student can avoid communicating, or SHOULD. a well run program is well run because staff communicates well, and a working student is part of the staff. I can see this kind of thing becoming too burdensome for trainers and opportunities for less wealthy kids like me drying up. Face it, we already know we are a hassle, bring in no money, take time to mentor, and otherwise are one more responsibility for trainers to deal with. our trainers are giving us the opportunity to give back to the sport -- useless and burdensome regulation is a punishment.

                      I strongly believe in protecting kids, but there has to be a more effective way than this. Under this rule, an 18 year old can purchase cigarettes and go off to die for our country in the military, but can't text their trainer. ?????

                      I was assaulted as a teen at a horse show, so I get the concerns and take them seriously. I also had an amazing trainer who created incredible opportunities for me, and never once went "over the line." He is a father figure to me.

                      This rule would have done nothing to prevent my assault. I didn't even know their names.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                        Rugbug said she texts several times a week due to shows. Honestly I text back and forth with my trainer maybe twice a month on average. I don’t need to talk to her that much to get to a show or whatever. I never said that was failed parenting I just said the way my mom taught me independence while being in the background is WHY I don’t need to constantly talk to my trainer.
                        No amount of parent taught independence will allow me to know what time my riding lesson is this week. Being independent does not help me know who else is going to a schooling session so I know who to pick up (after I have offered my spare trailer slot) or that someone else might be able to pick me up.
                        I could go on.
                        You are making a huge leap that communication with one's trainer means they are not independent.

                        It is great that your world allows you to go long periods of time with out talking to your trainer. That is not how it works for lots of other people. Insisting because you do not have to communicate with your trainer means that everyone else should be able to do the same does not really hold water.

                        The other day I sent my trainer a text wishing her a fun vacation. Gasp.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                          No amount of parent taught independence will allow me to know what time my riding lesson is this week. Being independent does not help me know who else is going to a schooling session so I know who to pick up (after I have offered my spare trailer slot) or that someone else might be able to pick me up.
                          I could go on.
                          You are making a huge leap that communication with one's trainer means they are not independent.

                          It is great that your world allows you to go long periods of time with out talking to your trainer. That is not how it works for lots of other people. Insisting because you do not have to communicate with your trainer means that everyone else should be able to do the same does not really hold water.

                          The other day I sent my trainer a text wishing her a fun vacation. Gasp.
                          Dude seriously? If it’s a minor I would HOPE the trainer isn’t too put out creating a group message to include the parent. If the parent is put out by said messages so they KNOW what is going on with their kid then yeah, that’s a bad parent. Y’all are putting this into the context of your lives NOW and what you need as an ADULT from a trainer. A minor? I would hope a parent would appreciate the heads up.

                          And your not a minor you’re an adult so if you are gasping about texting another adult I would suggest a paper bag.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                            Dude seriously? If it’s a minor I would HOPE the trainer isn’t too put out creating a group message to include the parent. If the parent is put out by said messages so they KNOW what is going on with their kid then yeah, that’s a bad parent. Y’all are putting this into the context of your lives NOW and what you need as an ADULT from a trainer. A minor? I would hope a parent would appreciate the heads up.
                            I guess a lot of the communications I had as a working student, when I was in FL and my parents in WV, would not have informed my parents about anything. "Bring Pookie to ring 4 in 15". "bring my shorter spurs" "put the Pelham on Dobbin today but bring the full cheek too" "hold Tansy's lunch she's going in 30"....it would just be absurd.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post
                              My original question was asked because I don’t text my trainer as much as you even with shows, off property schooling etc. I don’t, because my Mom taught me independence while still keeping tabs.
                              I know sometimes you are messing with folks and sometimes you are sincere. Hopefully this is a messing with me because it's pretty insulting.

                              My mom taught me independence...in fact, had a constant battle of trying to rein in my independence. I'm not some doormat wilting flower that needs constant input to make a decision. But here's a sample of my most recent texts:

                              1. "Can you feed X this morning? If there is only one bucket, he's already been fed."
                              2. Me:"If you want saddle time, you can ride X." (she is recovering from a broken leg)
                              Her: "I can ride him at 6 on Friday"
                              Me: I will be at barn to ride him then. If you need saddle time, we can both do a bit?
                              Her: Ok. I'm fine.

                              3. Me: 'Can you ask X to update the premium?'

                              etc. That is nothing about a horse is not doing well/injured, being ridden by someone else, or someone is horse shopping and we are sharing potential options.


                              ETA: Everyone who’s worried about the trainer who takes on the parent roll for kids who have parents that don’t care, those are THE most at risk kids. That’s who safe sport is trying to protect.
                              The most at risk...and the ones that also benefit the most from a positive, healthy relationship with an adult willing to take them under their wing.

                              Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                              Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

                                I guess a lot of the communications I had as a working student, when I was in FL and my parents in WV, would not have informed my parents about anything. "Bring Pookie to ring 4 in 15". "bring my shorter spurs" "hold Tansy's lunch she's going in 30"....it would just be absurd.
                                When push comes to shove I highly doubt that’s the type of communication that will get one in trouble. Again it’s one attorney’s interpretation and if a case comes up it will go to court and be appealed. I bet after that it will result in non-business communication being the line.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                                  When push comes to shove I highly doubt that’s the type of communication that will get one in trouble. Again it’s one attorney’s interpretation and if a case comes up it will go to court and be appealed. I bet after that it will result in non-business communication being the line.
                                  But that isn't what USEF and SafeSport have proposed. That's why this is a bad rule -- it is way over-inclusive and prohibits lots of perfectly legitimate communication that protects no one.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                                    I know sometimes you are messing with folks and sometimes you are sincere. Hopefully this is a messing with me because it's pretty insulting.

                                    My mom taught me independence...in fact, had a constant battle of trying to rein in my independence. I'm not some doormat wilting flower that needs constant input to make a decision. But here's a sample of my most recent texts:

                                    1. "Can you feed X this morning? If there is only one bucket, he's already been fed."
                                    2. Me:"If you want saddle time, you can ride X." (she is recovering from a broken leg)
                                    Her: "I can ride him at 6 on Friday"
                                    Me: I will be at barn to ride him then. If you need saddle time, we can both do a bit?
                                    Her: Ok. I'm fine.

                                    3. Me: 'Can you ask X to update the premium?'

                                    etc. That is nothing about a horse is not doing well/injured, being ridden by someone else, or someone is horse shopping and we are sharing potential options.




                                    The most at risk...and the ones that also benefit the most from a positive, healthy relationship with an adult willing to take them under their wing.
                                    I did not mean to be insulting. I’m truly sorry. For your horse care examples, my Mom wanted to know all of that. And yes the most at risk benefit from good caring trainers. They also are most a prey and that is the driving force. Should it be like that? Heck no. But it is. We shouldn’t feel put out over cc’ing someone to make sure kids are safe. Especially in a sport where people don’t say anything to not be black balled and they put their own success at a sport above someone’s safety. You know you’ve read posts like that here.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

                                      But that isn't what USEF and SafeSport have proposed. That's why this is a bad rule -- it is way over-inclusive and prohibits lots of perfectly legitimate communication that protects no one.
                                      No. What was published was one attorney’s interpretation that really isn’t going to hold up in court.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                                        No. What was published was one attorney’s interpretation that really isn’t going to hold up in court.
                                        And the actual rule. Which does not include the exclusion you are saying is there.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/YXj0...)&utm_content=


                                          It is a "REQUIRED POLICY" and goes into effect June 1, 2019.

                                          That lawyer is the USEF's General Counsel. This rule is enforced by the USEF Hearing Committee and/or SafeSport. The lawyer, at least her office, is almost certainly responsible for bringing cases and acting as "investigator/prosecutor" before the Hearing Committee. It makes her a significant indicator of what USEF intends to enforce.

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