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Can we talk about SafeSport?

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  • I think we need to go back to having a separate branch running the Olympic Sports and then another association running the non-Olympic sports. The fact a lot of the cheaters have been able to get off due to citing OC rules turned me off to having everything mushed together. Humble’s death and the way she wiggled out of that stands out.

    Then the little body can have their own safe sport rules that make sense and the Olympic sports can adhere to the govt regulations. Time to split.

    Comment


    • The person I emailed is on vacation. I received an out of office reply. I am going to email the other two contacts listed for Safe Sport issues. I am also going to see if one of my attorney friends can shed some light on the legality of such things and bounce some ideas off of them.

      So if y’all have ideas about how to tailor the MAAP to the horse industry let’s here ‘em. Or should this be another thread?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

        Awesome and thanks!

        Also, and I really hope this doesn't come across as condescending...but thank you for the tone shift in your posts. I do value your opinion and your posts from today have been much easier to consider.
        Here’s my dirty little secret, I am not a USEF member because I have limited funds and I event. I will not spring for that until I have to. H/J is near and dear to my heart as that was the training I got as a beginner and I have had many compliments on how strong of a foundation I received. I also seek out H/J trainers once in a while and go to schooling shows because it helps me and my horse. So I have lots of respect for the discipline, it’s just way too expensive and I like to run and jump.

        I work in a very male dominated industry where misogyny still runs rampant. It was great the day there was an all female fly over with all female maintainers for one of the first female fighter pilot’s funeral. The guys literally asked me how would you feel if you came to work and you couldn’t go to the line because of your gender? Uh I couldn’t have had my job prior to 1992.

        That aside I take culture change and sexual assault/rape very seriously. Throw kids in there and I will get angry.

        So this non USEF member is emailing, I will call if I have to, to answer all the questions. Because I have them too. I bet a lot of people do. So my issue with every safe sport thread is the nay sayers that this impacts do nothing more than complain on a BB. Not everyone but a lot. It’s cool to complain. Heck I do it daily at work. I also try to get answers and provide solutions to what ever it is I’m complaining about.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

          So this non USEF member is emailing, I will call if I have to, to answer all the questions. Because I have them too. I bet a lot of people do. So my issue with every safe sport thread is the nay sayers that this impacts do nothing more than complain on a BB. Not everyone but a lot. It’s cool to complain. Heck I do it daily at work. I also try to get answers and provide solutions to what ever it is I’m complaining about.
          1. You treat this like it's a black and white issue, while many of us see the grey areas. Just because we point out the grey areas does not equate to being "naysayers" who are just complaining.

          2. You have done your fair share of complaining about everyone who does not agree with you, so it would be nice if you would own that. You even complained in the quote paragraph above. I'm not sure why your complaining is so superior to everyone else's but it makes it really difficult to take you seriously.

          3. You are a non-member and you are lecturing so many members on how to carry on about their business. That seems a bit unfair. I get that you are trying to protect children, but several of us see the major gaps in the latest proposals and yes we are calling them out. Since you only want to see black vs white (agree with you vs not agree with you), you can't seem to see any merit in any of the concerns, and you go so far as to label them "complaints." That's not cool.

          4. I don't know of anyone who is against SafeSport or the Protecting Young Victims from Sexual Abuse Act of 2017. What we struggle with are the policies implemented by both SafeSport and the NGB. They are recklessly written and it is quite clear that it was done to check a box so it could be demonstrated "that children are protected."

          5. Why doesn't SafeSport provide a communication App for all coaches and adults working with children that can be monitored? Call it SafeSport transparency or something if they feel so strongly about censoring communication? They could embed a tool that watches for keywords that relate to grooming that would trigger an alert. But then again, no predator would use it - they aren't concerned about the law, anyway, which keeps getting overlooked here....

          6. The perv at my barn growing up was constantly showering me with gift IN FRONT OF MY MOTHER. She just thought he was "nice." The forced "Kissy kissy smoochie smoochie" on the lips kisses - well, she passed that off because he was German and that was his "culture." Thank God I was street smart and didn't fall for his advances beyond the nasty kisses. I always ran off after that. We live in a different world now, thank GOD. I don't know of what parent that would find any of that acceptable today, knowing what we know about the grooming of children. No parent would tolerate this today, and if it happened when no parent was present and I told the parent what happened, I would be taken a lot more seriously than back in the 80's when this happened. There is actually more transparency, not less, and I think that is yet another reason why so many of us have the issues we have with some of the new policies. The population is more educated now than in the past. We are ALL required by law to report these incidences when we are told about them. This is a fantastic move in the right direction!

          7. Why kill off texting and still allow the potential predator to call? That I don't understand. The call is not trackable. Why not just ban Whats App and iMessage blue messages for iPhone (require texting which shows in green and stores the texts)? Facebook is trackable. Texts are trackable. Why remove the one thing that could confirm an allegation of a guilty party or help exonerate an accused person who is perhaps innocent?

          8. I don't have an issue with SafeSport. I took the training, which I honestly think was a box-checking procedure so USEF can say its members are trained and agree to be compliant. When compared to the corporate training I'm required to take every year, it paled in comparison. But, it's still better than no training at all.

          9. I have no children, and I have spent the last 25 years mentoring children. I've watched them while their parents were out of town, took one to Kentucky to see all the TB horse farms and the KY Horse Park, I shared rooms with them at shows to help the parents cut costs, I've driven them back and forth to the barn, watched after them while they rode if their parents needed to run errands. I've driven them to shows, cheered them on when their parents can't be there, played their horse groom to help them cut costs. But I've helped them understand why "their mean and unfair parent" needs to sell their horse so they can go to school, or why their "unfair" parent won't pay for more shows or why their "nasty dad" won't buy them a new horse. These conversations happen because the kids trust their mentor, and as mentors we help them understand that they don't really have sh*tty parents as they think. It's largely situational and it's part of accepting the life we have. Now we are expected to have some of these exchanges with the parent sitting right there or with the parent in copy? Sorry, but no. But I guess I can have a phone call because that's okay...



          Comment


          • Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post

            1. You treat this like it's a black and white issue, while many of us see the grey areas. Just because we point out the grey areas does not equate to being "naysayers" who are just complaining.

            2. You have done your fair share of complaining about everyone who does not agree with you, so it would be nice if you would own that. You even complained in the quote paragraph above. I'm not sure why your complaining is so superior to everyone else's but it makes it really difficult to take you seriously.

            3. You are a non-member and you are lecturing so many members on how to carry on about their business. That seems a bit unfair. I get that you are trying to protect children, but several of us see the major gaps in the latest proposals and yes we are calling them out. Since you only want to see black vs white (agree with you vs not agree with you), you can't seem to see any merit in any of the concerns, and you go so far as to label them "complaints." That's not cool.

            4. I don't know of anyone who is against SafeSport or the Protecting Young Victims from Sexual Abuse Act of 2017. What we struggle with are the policies implemented by both SafeSport and the NGB. They are recklessly written and it is quite clear that it was done to check a box so it could be demonstrated "that children are protected."

            5. Why doesn't SafeSport provide a communication App for all coaches and adults working with children that can be monitored? Call it SafeSport transparency or something if they feel so strongly about censoring communication? They could embed a tool that watches for keywords that relate to grooming that would trigger an alert. But then again, no predator would use it - they aren't concerned about the law, anyway, which keeps getting overlooked here....

            6. The perv at my barn growing up was constantly showering me with gift IN FRONT OF MY MOTHER. She just thought he was "nice." The forced "Kissy kissy smoochie smoochie" on the lips kisses - well, she passed that off because he was German and that was his "culture." Thank God I was street smart and didn't fall for his advances beyond the nasty kisses. I always ran off after that. We live in a different world now, thank GOD. I don't know of what parent that would find any of that acceptable today, knowing what we know about the grooming of children. No parent would tolerate this today, and if it happened when no parent was present and I told the parent what happened, I would be taken a lot more seriously than back in the 80's when this happened. There is actually more transparency, not less, and I think that is yet another reason why so many of us have the issues we have with some of the new policies. The population is more educated now than in the past. We are ALL required by law to report these incidences when we are told about them. This is a fantastic move in the right direction!

            7. Why kill off texting and still allow the potential predator to call? That I don't understand. The call is not trackable. Why not just ban Whats App and iMessage blue messages for iPhone (require texting which shows in green and stores the texts)? Facebook is trackable. Texts are trackable. Why remove the one thing that could confirm an allegation of a guilty party or help exonerate an accused person who is perhaps innocent?

            8. I don't have an issue with SafeSport. I took the training, which I honestly think was a box-checking procedure so USEF can say its members are trained and agree to be compliant. When compared to the corporate training I'm required to take every year, it paled in comparison. But, it's still better than no training at all.

            9. I have no children, and I have spent the last 25 years mentoring children. I've watched them while their parents were out of town, took one to Kentucky to see all the TB horse farms and the KY Horse Park, I shared rooms with them at shows to help the parents cut costs, I've driven them back and forth to the barn, watched after them while they rode if their parents needed to run errands. I've driven them to shows, cheered them on when their parents can't be there, played their horse groom to help them cut costs. But I've helped them understand why "their mean and unfair parent" needs to sell their horse so they can go to school, or why their "unfair" parent won't pay for more shows or why their "nasty dad" won't buy them a new horse. These conversations happen because the kids trust their mentor, and as mentors we help them understand that they don't really have sh*tty parents as they think. It's largely situational and it's part of accepting the life we have. Now we are expected to have some of these exchanges with the parent sitting right there or with the parent in copy? Sorry, but no. But I guess I can have a phone call because that's okay...


            You totally missed my point. Complain and take action. Don’t just complain. I used to be a member, but stopped after a break in riding and now don’t see a point in all the fees if they are not required. It’s not like I’m a random person that’s never been a member. I was an ASHA member too before the merger.

            No no one is taking away text messages. Where on earth did you see that?

            I see gaps too. That’s why I am attempting a conversation with those in charge and will post communications here. The biggest gap right now is MAAP only covers USEF horse shows and sponsored clinics. As another poster pointed out, that’s hardly where the bulk of abuse happens.

            Comment


            • I think one of the good things a thread like this does is helps us develop useful questions for the people higher up the food chain. Instead of 25 people each sending a long email full of various rambling thoughts we now have come up with some good questions regarding the holes in their rules. That way we (a representative) can send clear questions once. Not bogging them down.

              So, where you Denali6298 see people not willing to take action, I see people discussing to determine a good way to take action.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                You totally missed my point. Complain and take action. Don’t just complain. I used to be a member, but stopped after a break in riding and now don’t see a point in all the fees if they are not required. It’s not like I’m a random person that’s never been a member. I was an ASHA member too before the merger.

                No no one is taking away text messages. Where on earth did you see that?

                I see gaps too. That’s why I am attempting a conversation with those in charge and will post communications here. The biggest gap right now is MAAP only covers USEF horse shows and sponsored clinics. As another poster pointed out, that’s hardly where the bulk of abuse happens.
                I appreciate your 'complain and take action' but taking action too quickly ends up in bad actions that don't really make a difference. You can take action quickly on simple ideas...but you better slow down a bit and think through more complex issues. It's like trying to fix healthcare and only focusing on one piece that seems like it would make one area better but may not.

                I'm the type of person that likes to analyze cause and effect fully and understand the whys and what different actions could result in. It sometimes means I move slower than others. But the truth is, we NEED all types of people to make something actually work.

                And, this is a bulletin board...it's where people come to have discussions. It's not a planning committee. That doesn't mean that action can't come out of this, but it's more like brainstorming and really talking through all the issues. At least I see it that way. It's also a place to hear different viewpoints. Action isn't the point. A broadened perspective is, IMO.
                Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                  I think one of the good things a thread like this does is helps us develop useful questions for the people higher up the food chain. Instead of 25 people each sending a long email full of various rambling thoughts we now have come up with some good questions regarding the holes in their rules. That way we (a representative) can send clear questions once. Not bogging them down.

                  So, where you Denali6298 see people not willing to take action, I see people discussing to determine a good way to take action.
                  I agree with that. However at what page did I offer to email? I am more than happy to be the conduit. As things stand now, when I must be a member again, it will be an ethical struggle for me. That ethical struggle as well as funds plays into membership at this exact moment. Also, maybe they need 25 emails asking the same questions and expressing the same concerns. Lord knows they are scared to piss off the BNTs with the other stuff they sweep under the carpet.

                  Comment


                  • This isn't a horse related incident, but it happened at my high school, to many of my close friends, while I was there.

                    https://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...861043e65.html

                    If SafeSport-type rules had been in place I'm confident that this either would have never happened or at least would have been caught sooner. These rules, while cumbersome, will protect children. We are fortunate that we have the opportunity to complain about them and potentially alter them in the future to be more effective, but it has to start somewhere. Even googling to find this article again made me queasy.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post
                      The person I emailed is on vacation. I received an out of office reply. I am going to email the other two contacts listed for Safe Sport issues. I am also going to see if one of my attorney friends can shed some light on the legality of such things and bounce some ideas off of them.

                      So if y’all have ideas about how to tailor the MAAP to the horse industry let’s here ‘em. Or should this be another thread?
                      I think it might be useful to start another thread, so that people who either never looked at this thread or got turned off by it might be inclined to offer suggestions. The more ideas, the better.

                      Comment


                      • For those that don't have access to HBO to watch "At The Heart Of Gold" documentary, download to podcast "Believed".
                        Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.

                        Comment


                        • As others have already posted, everyone who is complaining about Safe Sport needs to take an hour and a half out of their day and watch the new HBO documentary called At the Heart of Gold: Inside the USA Gymnastics Scandal. It is on HBO and Crave for the next few weeks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eaX405ph0g

                          Well over 360 victims spanning over a 20 year period, with national governing bodies, Olympic Committees and major Universities knowing about the abuse and nobody did anything. But once you start watching the documentary, it opens your mind to understanding the complex art of grooming and how a monster could be viewed as a hero by everyone.

                          The documentary can also be seen on Hulu for free if you do not have HBO. https://www.hulu.com/movie/at-the-he...b-661d3b5e39c8
                          www.DaventryEquestrian.com
                          Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
                          Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness
                          www.EquineAppraisers.com

                          Comment


                          • I haven't had a chance to see the gymnastics documentary, but I remember being fascinated by the sport when I was younger (despite not being able to do a cartwheel), and I took out a few autobiographies famous gymnasts from the library.

                            This was years and years before the scandal broke but one of the girls (while still a young child) described living with strange people not her parents several states away to train at a gym with a famous coach (I believe the home was selected by the gym, too). There were also moments like gymnasts being berated for eating peaches at the gym, and how their big treat was a piece of sugary gum every great once in awhile. This was all presented as normal, something necessary to do to make it to the top, not even gasp-worthy behavior.

                            I do think the culture is changing in the sports world as a whole, but it takes enforcement of regulations with teeth as well as a shift in attitude.

                            atl_hunter A bit of a side point, but I'm old but not that old, and I also remember (not at the barn but in general) my mother berating me for not smiling and making nice with creepy older men who smiled and flirted with me. The message was always that any male attention, no matter what the man, was desirable, and not to get such attention was the problem, versus being ogled. My mother was also very protective of me, but this was her normal. And also, she thought it was not nice to hurt a man's ego.

                            It's sort of refreshing years later to have affirmed what I felt at the time was not me being a bad, cold person (as I was often told).
                            Check out the latest Fortune's Fool novel, Courage to the Sticking Place!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Daventry View Post
                              As others have already posted, everyone who is complaining about Safe Sport needs to take an hour and a half out of their day and watch the new HBO documentary called At the Heart of Gold: Inside the USA Gymnastics Scandal. It is on HBO and Crave for the next few weeks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eaX405ph0g

                              Well over 360 victims spanning over a 20 year period, with national governing bodies, Olympic Committees and major Universities knowing about the abuse and nobody did anything. But once you start watching the documentary, it opens your mind to understanding the complex art of grooming and how a monster could be viewed as a hero by everyone.

                              The documentary can also be seen on Hulu for free if you do not have HBO. https://www.hulu.com/movie/at-the-he...b-661d3b5e39c8
                              I've watched it. It's very moving.

                              it does nothing to change my opinion that the rules being imposed here are highly flawed.

                              One can both recognize the seriousness of an issue and note that the current response to the issue is poorly designed.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Darkwave View Post

                                I've watched it. It's very moving.

                                it does nothing to change my opinion that the rules being imposed here are highly flawed.

                                One can both recognize the seriousness of an issue and note that the current response to the issue is poorly designed.
                                No one is saying they are perfect. We do have to start somewhere. I was searching for an unrelated thread and came across one about sexual abuse in the industry that is damn near 20 years old. Obviously, despite some awareness, it wasn’t enough to stop outsiders from stepping in. That’s the problem.

                                https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f...on-the-circuit

                                Comment


                                • SafeSport is here to stay, just like helicopter parenting and electronic devices. Might as well get used to it. I doubt if much will change for most of us. Some trainers will find it tedious to do group texts to kids/parents and some kids will no longer be able to travel unaccompanied by parents and accompanied by trainers or others. Things change, for good or bad. Instead of fussing about these new rules, maybe we could try and figure out a way to make hunter/jumper land more affordable?
                                  kenyagirl

                                  Comment


                                  • Thanks to the person who posted the link to this podcast. It was really an interesting discussion of the subject, with a few people who had very different perspectives. Well worth the 45 minutes to listen to it.

                                    https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2019/06...licy-safesport

                                    Comment


                                    • Here’s another clarification from USEF:

                                      https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...4a8STLF7j0HpCg

                                      Comment


                                      • At the Derby this weekend in KY one of the owners was listed on the jumbo tron and after his name was the works
                                        Safe sport

                                        what does that mean?

                                        Comment


                                        • Suggested reading, for what it's worth:
                                          http://www.pollyfrost.com/blog/2018/...ged-child.html

                                          Comment

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