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Can we talk about SafeSport?

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  • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

    Freak out about the end of times if you will, call me self righteous, rude whatever, but please also throw out ideas that you think would work better rather than saying nope not going to work. Let’s get rid of it.
    I literally did this.

    Originally posted by dags View Post
    Every time a membership is issued USEF knows if they have a junior on their hands, as does every other National Governing Body out there. Right then & there parents could be hit with a broad-spectrum education. The online training for themselves, a video to watch with their kid, and a follow-up package mailed to their address for starters. When a kid signs up with another NGB this information transfers, perhaps with a refresher for the parent, or at the minimum a reminder of what happened to all the gymnasts and swimmers et al, what Safe Sport is, and why this education is crucial.
    And for the 15th time, no one is recommending we do away with SafeSport. You can question a particular and discuss if it is really the most effective solution without negating support for the scope of the concept.

    Maybe 541hunter is more tactful. Maybe she's just a better listener. Probably both.
    EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

    Comment


    • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post

      There is a rule that doctor's must have a nurse in the room?

      Are we talking about only with minors?
      It's becoming best practice in the medical community for certain types of exams at least. At my university's health center they're implementing a policy of including a third person in the room for appointments that require "sensitive exams" (which has specific definitions but basically gynecological, breast, prostate, etc) and making it an option for all other types of exams. It's not a law that I know of, but I do believe many medical centers are making it policy.

      Also RugBug I can see what you're saying with longer instructions. I wonder how often those need to be given from a distance in real time—in the barns I've been a part of, most of those instructions that might be given via text are short, in-the-moment things (ex. "I'm ready for Dobbin now, can you bring him to the outdoor?"). Longer or more complicated instructions get written on the white board ("Fluffy school 10:00 with the pelham, lunge Scarlet in the rig 11:00, Dobbin bath"). The solution that the trainer at my current barn has landed on post-MAAP implementation for her students that help out is to always include the assistant trainer on texts. Simple solution, and day-to-day not one that costs much extra time.

      I can imagine where other operations might have different needs, but I guess I'm suggesting there are plenty of other options besides individual texting, and to me that culture change I talked about seems important enough to try a few alternate methods til you find one that works. I acknowledge that others in this thread don't feel the same about the texting policies in particular, but I guess that's not one I'm going to convince you all on.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by dags View Post
        And for the 15th time, no one is recommending we do away with SafeSport. You can question a particular and discuss if it is really the most effective solution without negating support for the scope of the concept.
        Seriously.
        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
        Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
        Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
        The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

        Comment


        • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

          Is that what you've understood the push back to be? Because that's not it at all. Having a record is great...and why I think apps like WhatsApp and Signal are concerning. Predators will 100% use those and skirt these rules.

          I have issue with these rules being MANDATORY. Because the people that are going to follow them are most likely the people that there will be no concern about. The ones we ARE concerned about will either ignore the rules or follow them on the face and then use alternate means.




          I’m sorry I will be more specific. I tend to go from point A to D while ignoring B and C for people.

          Yes the push back is the monitoring of texts. I assumed all of us understood I was speaking within the scope of the new rule that’s it’s mandatory. Yes the push back is the mandatory monitoring of texts and FB messages by parents via cc. Again I apologize for leaving out the word mandatory as in my brain that was implied by the fact that they incorporated this rule.

          dags your solution is why it encompasses more then just horse sports. It’s why there is not a million different versions for every sport. Many kids and adults compete in multiple sports that safe sport covers. That’s the point of everyone going to the safe sport web site no matter who their governing body is to take the training.

          I never said people want to get rid of safe Sport I was implying people want to get rid of this rule because it’s inconvenient.

          Radios are a great idea. Again, somehow grooms and working students were able to get the job done pre-text messaging. Not sure what has changed to make it more difficult now.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

            Radios are a great idea. Again, somehow grooms and working students were able to get the job done pre-text messaging. Not sure what has changed to make it more difficult now.
            We were also able to get a lot of things done in the past but have better, more efficient ways now.

            I don't care if my...or anybody's texts are available for monitoring...when needed (i.e. saved on a server or the cloud or whatever) I'm not doing anything wrong. I don't like making a broad rule that will not stop the predators. They will find ways to skirt the rule...or not follow it at all. 541hunter and poltroon have made some convincing arguments. I appreciate that...but I still think there is a better, more complete way to go about this than this rule.

            Heck, I was at the barn working in my car last night, waiting for my horse to finish his time in turnout...and a junior came to the barn to do some chores. We were alone. I never would have thought twice about that in the past....in fact, I am usually happy to be there so there was an adult present. If she rides, I'm really happy to be there and will specifically wait til she's off if I'm the only one there. I thought about it last night.



            Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
            Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
              Heck, I was at the barn working in my car last night, waiting for my horse to finish his time in turnout...and a junior came to the barn to do some chores. We were alone. I never would have thought twice about that in the past....in fact, I am usually happy to be there so there was an adult present. If she rides, I'm really happy to be there and will specifically wait til she's off if I'm the only one there. I thought about it last night.
              And this question (or better said, the question your post is about) is the question that people who are insisting anyone asking it is against saving kids, is the question that no one has been able to answer yet.

              How does this rule apply to the ammy adult who boards with juniors and finds themselves alone at the barn with one?

              Does the ammy adult have to pack up and leave if they do not happen to have a pre-signed release from the parent of the junior's parent?



              I think back to when I boarded.
              I drove more than one kid home because their mom was running late.
              I drove kids to horse shows, just the two of us in my truck (I trailered their horse too).
              Sometimes it was just me and a (various) kid riding at the same time.
              Last edited by trubandloki; Jun. 5, 2019, 02:49 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                And this question (or better said, the question your post is about) is the question that people who are insisting anyone asking it is against saving kids, is the question that no one has been able to answer yet.

                How does this rule apply to the ammy adult who boards with juniors and finds themselves alone at the barn with one?

                Does the ammy adult have to pack up and leave if they do not happen to have a pre-signed release from the parent of the junior's parent?

                I would hope that whatever language is drawn up by the trainer/BO would take into consideration the likelihood of this happening. I am more than happy to email the question for people here. I myself am never in that situation because the barn I am at does not allow kids on the property without a parent/adult present. That doesn’t include boarders so the parent/adult can’t just drop the kid off. It’s not a traditional show/lesson barn.

                My view of radios and and getting dragged in 20 different directions is colored by my job. No cell phones while actively working outside the work center (office if you will). So radios it is. Yes it sucks. However, my time as a WS, groom and BM has adequately prepared me.

                I do think changes will be made once we are able to see the new rule being implemented and subsequent rules or alterations will be made to make it better. I think it’s unfair to immediately disparage something like this without seeing it in action first.

                If they made a rule like my barn has, no kids unless accompanied by an adult, then yes call it stupid. That is not realistic at all. It works at my barn since it’s all adults. It would not work at many barns at all.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                  And this question (or better said, the question your post is about) is the question that people who are insisting anyone asking it is against saving kids, is the question that no one has been able to answer yet.

                  How does this rule apply to the ammy adult who boards with juniors and finds themselves alone at the barn with one?

                  Does the ammy adult have to pack up and leave if they do not happen to have a pre-signed release from the parent of the junior's parent?
                  You know, I was in the midst of writing a response to this referencing the wording to say that adults can be alone with minors in the barn as long as it's observable and interruptible, but in that process I found what seems to me to be a fatal flaw in the policy text. The observable and interruptible clause has two bullet points that seem to directly contradict each other.

                  b. Observable and interruptible
                  • One-on-one interactions between a minor athlete and an Applicable Adult (who is not the minor’s legal guardian) at a facility partially or fully under our jurisdiction are permitted if they occur at an observable and interruptible distance by another adult.
                  • One-on-one interactions between minor athletes and an Applicable Adult (who is not the minor’s legal guardian) at a facility partially or fully under our jurisdiction are prohibited, except in the circumstances described in subpart d of this section and under emergency circumstances.
                  Am I wrong that those two bullet points seem directly in conflict with each other? (I'm pulling from the Safe Sport website, not the USEF specific policy, but it's basically the same, just with more language around the facility jurisdiction)

                  ETA: The subpart d referenced in the second bullet point addresses healthcare professionals, so that adds to my confusion.

                  Another edit that seems important: the policy defines "USEF facility" as follows, which seems to not include privately owned barns, except those that hold USEF-sanctioned shows, clinics, etc.

                  Facility partially or fully under the jurisdiction of USEF: Any facility that USEF owns, leases, or uses at no cost. Additionally, this definition covers all USEF licensed and endorsed competitions, USEF training sessions, USEF clinics, and observation events.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post
                    I never said people want to get rid of safe Sport I was implying people want to get rid of this rule because it’s inconvenient.
                    Again, no.

                    We are concerned that the rule doesn't actually solve the problem. Blind belief that more micromanagement will save a child from this situation does not actually help children. Doing something just to say you're doing something does not actually help children. Honestly, I'm looking at this whole thing and thinking... Really? Biannual permission slips actually satisfy you as an acceptable solution to this problem? Do we really think former victims would have been spared if their parents just signed more permission slips?

                    541hunter raised excellent points about culture shift and better defining professional v. student/client roles in this industry, and I concur with that. Suggested best practices for coaches and trainers that speak to better professional standards for our entire industry are a good thing and I concur with that. Ignoring the importance of educating parents, who are the kids' first line of defense, while mandating and potentially criminalizing the way a business owner communicates with their own clients is where I draw the line. Especially if that solution is potentially short-sighted and ineffective. And most especially if said solution has potential for a negative long-term effect. Protecting kids is good. Sheltering them has never worked out in the long-term.
                    EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 541hunter View Post
                      Another edit that seems important: the policy defines "USEF facility" as follows, which seems to not include privately owned barns, except those that hold USEF-sanctioned shows, clinics, etc.
                      So does that last part mean that none of this applies to any barn at home? Only at shows? Unless you happen to keep your horses at the USET facility at Gladstone? Because that makes it all seem a lot less relevant. And that’s before you even take into account all the barns where they do not show at the USEF level, and are not USEF members.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by dags View Post

                        Again, no.

                        We are concerned that the rule doesn't actually solve the problem. Blind belief that more micromanagement will save a child from this situation does not actually help children. Doing something just to say you're doing something does not actually help children. Honestly, I'm looking at this whole thing and thinking... Really? Biannual permission slips actually satisfy you as an acceptable solution to this problem? Do we really think former victims would have been spared if their parents just signed more permission slips?

                        541hunter raised excellent points about culture shift and better defining professional v. student/client roles in this industry, and I concur with that. Suggested best practices for coaches and trainers that speak to better professional standards for our entire industry are a good thing and I concur with that. Ignoring the importance of educating parents, who are the kids' first line of defense, while mandating and potentially criminalizing the way a business owner communicates with their own clients is where I draw the line. Especially if that solution is potentially short-sighted and ineffective. And most especially if said solution has potential for a negative long-term effect. Protecting kids is good. Sheltering them has never worked out in the long-term.
                        I see the disconnect we are having. No, permission slips on their own is not enough. Neither is cc’ing the parent on its own enough. Neither is just training. All of these things TOGETHER will change the culture. There is training for adults and next week they are rolling out training for kids.

                        Minors are not allowed to sign contracts therefore the client is actually the parent.

                        If a 12 year old tries to purchase something from you with their parent’s credit card are you going to make the sale or expect the parent to actually make the purchase or at least have some proof they have permission?

                        Comment


                        • 541hunter does it define what observable by another adult means? I did not see that when I read it.

                          I think about most barns and a bad person can do quite a bit to a kid in a stall, that is not closed, while there are no other adults on the premises. Even easier if you can hear the crunching of tires as they pull in (another adult showing up).

                          So does observable by another adult mean there has to be another adult around (at the facility, not necessarily in the same exact spot) or simply that if someone else happened to come to the barn in that time frame?



                          On the other topic. Does "at a facility" in the rule equal what is later defined as a facility under the jurisdiction of the USEF?

                          Does that mean a trainer can text and be alone with minors all they want at their home barn, it is just at shows that all these rules apply?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MHM View Post

                            So does that last part mean that none of this applies to any barn at home? Only at shows? Unless you happen to keep your horses at the USET facility at Gladstone? Because that makes it all seem a lot less relevant. And that’s before you even take into account all the barns where they do not show at the USEF level, and are not USEF members.
                            I read that to encompass any adult working a show, member or not. Ie. The guy who cuts the grass.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                              I read that to encompass any adult working a show, member or not. Ie. The guy who cuts the grass.
                              Yes, but. Does it mean none of these rules apply when everyone goes home from the show? Only at the actual competition? There have been many questions posted here about situations that might arise at the barn at home, not specifically at a show.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MHM View Post

                                Yes, but. Does it mean none of these rules apply when everyone goes home from the show? Only at the actual competition? There have been many questions posted here about situations that might arise at the barn at home, not specifically at a show.
                                The way I am reading it is here are the rules for all members and those subsections covers all adults working the show. Remember the outcry over the training and people saying what about the grooms, what about the the vendors etc? There is the coverage to include those people. So effectively, again as I read it, the vendors at Devon or the office staff at Upperville are required to abide by them same rules even if they themselves are not USEF members.

                                So all members have to follow this at home and at shows. People working the horse shows need to follow this while they are working, in whatever capacity at the shows regardless if they are members or not.

                                ETA: Any team doctors are covered under this as well.

                                Comment


                                • So that brings right back to the other question.

                                  If you are a USEF member that is an adult that boards your horse and 16yo junior rider drives to the same barn and you are the only one there, what must the adult do to stay with in the rules?

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                                    So that brings right back to the other question.

                                    If you are a USEF member that is an adult that boards your horse and 16yo junior rider drives to the same barn and you are the only one there, what must the adult do to stay with in the rules?
                                    Email the USEF with this question. I have no idea, and haven’t asked as it doesn’t apply at my barn.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Nickelodian View Post

                                      ALL OF THIS. Read it as many times as you need to and let it sink in. I was minorly groomed by a major groomer back in the late 90s as a teen. He never made anything past dirty comments, forced hours of no stirrup work, and “playful” touching. But has he wanted, I would have been willing. No doubt. I idolized him. That is the definition of grooming. These kids are so much more accessible now via all of the contact methods than I was during the hours of horse show days. I couldn’t afford to travel to shows, so I only rode with him when the shows were in town. And I worked for him to work my bill off. He was pathological, manipulative, handsome, and Uber talented.
                                      First, thanks for sharing.

                                      for perspective, how much of your grooming do you think this rule would cover? This was at a time before widespread use of cell phones. Did he call you or was most in person? Was it in private or did he get you to, or start you down, the "I would have' path in public?

                                      You don't have to answer. I just ask to help calibrate my thoughts around this rule not really getting at the core issue...and your comment on the fact that you would have been willing echos some thoughts I've had.


                                      Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                      Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                                        Email the USEF with this question. I have no idea, and haven’t asked as it doesn’t apply at my barn.
                                        In post #227 it read like you were going to do that.

                                        Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post
                                        I am more than happy to email the question for people here.


                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                                          The way I am reading it is here are the rules for all members and those subsections covers all adults working the show. Remember the outcry over the training and people saying what about the grooms, what about the the vendors etc? There is the coverage to include those people. So effectively, again as I read it, the vendors at Devon or the office staff at Upperville are required to abide by them same rules even if they themselves are not USEF members.

                                          So all members have to follow this at home and at shows.
                                          Where in the rule does it say that all this applies at home? The post I quoted above made it sound like the rule only applies at USEF competitions, or facilities owned or controlled by USEF.

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