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Can we talk about SafeSport?

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  • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post
    Sticky Situation So why are you so reticent? Why with your background can you not come up with something better? Really what exactly is it that you would change about the training itself and most importantly the execution?

    Me, I would give it a chance and tailor it once the holes are apparent.

    Me, I would charge the adults the second they uttered the words, “they said something but I didn’t believe them.”

    My god in your profession you should be on board. But your not. That, wow.
    I’m all for charging adults who were told there was something bad going on and either chose to ignore/not believe it or did nothing because the trainer was well known/their kid was winning/kid had the ride on a good horse. I am 100% certain I never said or indicated we shouldn’t believe and advocate for victims.

    I simply don’t believe that creating a culture where children are taught to avoid and distrust all adults that aren’t parents (and if their parents aren’t trustworthy people - they then have nobody to trust), where adults can’t be friends of sorts to young people without invoking suspicion, and where helicopter parenting is essentially mandated is a good thing.

    The fact that I don’t see bureaucracy and sweeping policies mandating who is allowed to talk to whom as the solution doesn’t mean that I don’t care.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by poltroon View Post

      Let me make a suggestion of a way that it really does help.

      So in my era, if I was alone with an adult in a locked tackroom and I said something terrible happened, the onus would be on me to prove it, and most likely, I wouldn't be able to. Merely by bringing the accusation I'd be shamed, at best. It would be he-said-she-said and the loser would be me. I wouldn't report it and it could happen to a lot of people.

      With these rules, the burden of proof changes. Having an adult hold me alone in a locked tackroom is itself a violation. Now the onus is on the adult to prove that the worst didn't happen. It creates some options for corrective action if the situation is murky (say I was locked in and felt uncomfortable, but there was no sexual contact) and some opportunities for raised suspicion of problem individuals. Maybe there's no charge here, but maybe it's logged as evidence that is of use when another student reports a bigger problem.

      I recognize, by the way, that this changing burden of proof is exactly what so many people on this thread hate about it.

      There are some things that are frustrating. The car thing is one of the biggest. I think the best solution there is just parental permission. I know I'm aware that there are parents in my community who don't want their kids driving with certain adults because they don't think those adults are safe drivers, not because they're worried about abuse.
      I'm so glad you said this, Poltroon. Shifting the burden of proof is critical to curtail incidences of abuse. It provides an avenue for victims to pursue justice. It creates legal pathways to hold adults accountable for questionable behaviors instead of relying solely on the (potential) victim and the victim's previous education to keep themselves out of trouble.

      I guess shifting the burden of proof scares people. It shouldn't. My career requires me to abide by similar regulations as SafeSport and I don't feel like it creates any undue hardship. I don't feel like I'm less successful at my job because of it. These type of regulations are not that hard to abide by, not even when applied to training and riding instruction.
      Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sticky Situation View Post
        541hunter ... I appreciate your thoughtful responses, even though our opinions on the topic are different.

        You’re right that friendship and mentorship are not one and the same ... but I believe that there is no reason they need to be mutually exclusive, either.
        I agree with you there...when it comes to adults. But I do think when there’s the combination of significant power dynamics at play and an age gap wherein one person physically isn’t mature enough to navigate complicated social situations, there have to be very clear boundaries in a mentorship relationship. Our sport’s culture does not provide those boundaries, and the MAAP policy document is an artificial attempt to insert them systematically into those relationships.

        It’s definitely a sticky topic. I’m not fully sold on all of the specifics in the policy paper, but I do think that our current culture includes enough dangerous aspects that it might be good to overcorrect for a bit. It’s like when my trainer tells me to widen my hands six inches - for ideal position I don’t literally need to widen my hands that far but by practicing that way for a while I reset my brain a bit and I’m more likely to get closer to the ideal. Which is a very trite metaphor in this context but oh well, here we are.

        Clearly you and I see the potential outcomes of the texting/social media/alone time statutes of the policy paper very differently. I don’t believe it will kill the potential for cross-generational friendships among ammies and juniors, or for important mentorship between coaches and athletes. It will, if followed, change the norms of how those relationships take form, which does present a significant shift from what you or I grew up with. I see why that makes you and others uncomfortable, but I haven’t yet come around to the idea that it’s a net negative. That being said, I’m not fully convinced I’m on the right side of this either. So I’m glad to have the chance to join discussion and I appreciate reading your perspective.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 541hunter View Post
          The point of these kinds of policies is not to necessarily stop abusers from doing the things that are prohibited in the policy, but to change our culture so that it's easier to distinguish grooming behaviors. Much like gymnastics, in our culture it's currently normal for kids to be alone with adult coaches who have a lot of power over them, for parents to unquestioningly follow those coaches' recommendations, and for communications between adult coach and kid to be private. It's not out of the question for kids to text coaches late at night and vice versa, for minors and coaches to share a hotel room/condo/RV for weeks on end, for friendships to form between adults and minors. Normally those things are innocent, but they're also powerful tactics for predators to create closeness and trust with those they intend to abuse.

          So when all that seems normal in our sport, how does an outside observer tell when it's just the way the sport is vs. when it's a bad actor attempting to groom a potential victim? For that matter, how does a 13 year old tell the difference from inside the situation, when it's someone they trust and admire and want to please? When our norms allow the line between authority figure and friend to blur, it's all too easy for predators to take advantage. Boundaries get crossed inch by inch, not mile by mile, so if you widen the gulf between acceptable and unacceptable behavior, it's easier to identify when it's wrong. Changing the norms so that it doesn't feel right for trainers to contact minors directly without another adult involved will make it easier for kids, parents, and sympathetic bystanders to step in when a line is crossed.

          We're in a moment of reckoning where we're being asked from outside to change our norms, and that is really uncomfortable and inconvenient for the folks who are not abusers. I'm not sure the MAAP policies are all perfectly suited to our sport, but there is no doubt in my mind that the effort to force our culture to become more professional will help kids stay safer. Culture shifts are painful, and we might have some missteps along the way, but I can't think of anything more important than this.

          I would heartily recommend watching "At the Heart of Gold" on HBO if you can; it's a very well done documentary about the Larry Nassar case. The segment fairly early on about how he gave out his personal cell number, added gymnasts on facebook and instagram, and generally worked to become a trusted friend and advisor in a harsh environment rang very familiar. None of those behaviors are inherently predatory, but they sure as hell made it easy for Nassar to create a hidden shadowland where he could take advantage of athlete and parent trust.
          ALL OF THIS. Read it as many times as you need to and let it sink in. I was minorly groomed by a major groomer back in the late 90s as a teen. He never made anything past dirty comments, forced hours of no stirrup work, and “playful” touching. But has he wanted, I would have been willing. No doubt. I idolized him. That is the definition of grooming. These kids are so much more accessible now via all of the contact methods than I was during the hours of horse show days. I couldn’t afford to travel to shows, so I only rode with him when the shows were in town. And I worked for him to work my bill off. He was pathological, manipulative, handsome, and Uber talented.

          Sorry if it makes life harder for the general pop. But if it prevents even one situation like the one I was involved in, it’s a good thing. And honestly, I had it so much better than the girls with real talent. I was mediocre in comparison, and therefore got a lot less attention.
          My adventures as a working rider

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          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sticky Situation View Post

            I’m all for charging adults who were told there was something bad going on and either chose to ignore/not believe it or did nothing because the trainer was well known/their kid was winning/kid had the ride on a good horse. I am 100% certain I never said or indicated we shouldn’t believe and advocate for victims.

            I simply don’t believe that creating a culture where children are taught to avoid and distrust all adults that aren’t parents (and if their parents aren’t trustworthy people - they then have nobody to trust), where adults can’t be friends of sorts to young people without invoking suspicion, and where helicopter parenting is essentially mandated is a good thing.

            The fact that I don’t see bureaucracy and sweeping policies mandating who is allowed to talk to whom as the solution doesn’t mean that I don’t care.
            The only thing I can come up with, since you clearly have zero ideas except teach the kids which is already done, is you click through the training and don’t connect the dots to what you see at work. That’s not meant as a slight. It’s just observation. It sucks when real life blurs into our escapes. It truly does. However, that’s when you face it head on.

            Also, mentors should be mutually exclusive of friendship. That IS how people get away with it. Do you not examine the why behind what you see at work?

            I know now I sound callous and harsh but my mind is even more boggled by a health care professional that sees the physical trauma is so against any attempt.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sticky Situation View Post

              I simply don’t believe that creating a culture where children are taught to avoid and distrust all adults that aren’t parents (and if their parents aren’t trustworthy people - they then have nobody to trust), where adults can’t be friends of sorts to young people without invoking suspicion, and where helicopter parenting is essentially mandated is a good thing.

              The fact that I don’t see bureaucracy and sweeping policies mandating who is allowed to talk to whom as the solution doesn’t mean that I don’t care.
              I understand how you feel, but I think this is where perspectives chiefly differ.

              I don't see this as teaching children to "avoid and distrust all adults that aren't parents." I don't see this as teaching children that "adults can't be friends of sorts to young people without invoking suspicion." I don't see this as worsening the (huge and annoying) problem of helicopter parenting. I feel like those are extreme responses.

              I interpret these regulations as setting appropriate guidelines for child/adult interactions. An adult should be, you know, the adult in the relationship. There is no justifiable reason for a full-fledged adult to want to get a minor alone, privately, without the parents' knowledge. There is no justifiable reason for an adult to "secretly" message a child without the parents' knowledge. Even if an adult is a mentor and friend to the child, there is no excuse for hiding information or activities from the parents. By creating these guidelines, there is now direct recourse for adults who engage in these types of questionable behaviors. It forces adults to be transparent with their actions. Will every abuser be thwarted? Unfortunately not, but that is also an unrealistic goal. You can't eliminate all "bad" in the world. Yet creating a culture where transparency in adult/minor interactions can be legally enforced will reduce opportunity for predators and increase the likelihood that a predator is identified earlier rather than later, keeping more children safe.

              I understand that good people take offense to the fact that the government is trying to tell them how to behave. Good people don't need the government to tell them how to act, but unfortunately, a) not all people are good, and b) even good people make mistakes. Without regulations in place, it makes it very challenging to correct either situation.


              Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                It’s great people want to make the training and education better. It’s great that they want more awareness. The problem I have had with this whole thread is the resistance to the attempts to do this and the resistance to change the culture because people see the culture through their lens of good experiences while being removed from the wake of destruction JW left in his path. Yes they are sympathetic. But they don’t think it could happen at their barn, with their trainer.

                I feel the same way, Denali.

                It doesn't have to be SafeSport OR education/training, but I feel like some people are interpreting it that way. This is not a black and white topic. It's a difficult situation with no clear answer.

                I completely agree that it seems some people can only view the situation from their own perspective of good experiences. Being able to view a situation from multiple perspectives is a skill that not everyone possesses (even when they think they do). As a result, a lot of folks can only recognize good people being inconvenienced or even potentially punished by SafeSport. I think this is where everyone needs to have a little faith that the overarching goal of SafeSport is not to punish good people, even if that is the gut reaction upon reading it.

                The other argument I'm seeing is that people can identify flaws or potentially murky areas, therefore these changes should be rejected. My response to this is that nothing is perfect. You are never going to write policy that fits every possible situation, but you have to start somewhere. Reliance on solely educating youth to prevent sexual abuse does not work! There needs to be another level of protection. The new changes are not much different than the protocols every public school in the country follows, and I have observed those protocols to be successful in reducing abuse in schools without being impossible for adults to obey. Despite the insistence of many, equestrian sports are not so drastically different from other sports that they can't adapt to this as well.
                Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                  I know now I sound callous and harsh but my mind is even more boggled by a health care professional that sees the physical trauma is so against any attempt.
                  You don't sound callous and harsh. You sound rude and judgmental and combative. Unfortunately, my mind is not boggled by that attitude coming from a woman in the military.

                  You may may have good points but they are really hard to hear over the deafening moral superiority.
                  Last edited by RugBug; Jun. 5, 2019, 01:30 AM.
                  Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                  Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                    You don't sound callous and harsh. You sound rude and judgmental and combative. Unfortunately, my mind is not boggled by that attitude coming from a woman in the military.

                    You may may have good points but they are really hard to hear over the deafening moral superiority.
                    This. Completely, 100%. Just in case Denali6298 thinks it's just RugBug being unreasonable.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                      So we continue letting this person off the hook and parents/people continue to ride with the trainer. Perfect example of people either not believing or not caring.




                      Are you a teacher? Because I 100% know that isn't a policy in all school districts.




                      Also, not quite accurate. There are plenty of industries/companies. etc that do not consider it a no-no. They consider the abuse of it a no-no. Zappo's encouraged coworkers to be friends outside of work, and that typically includes social media connections and texting.

                      Additionally, many employers are not dealing with minors, so the rules may be different. Let's also add that an employer's attempt to limit the use of social media can quickly cut into illegal employment practices.

                      No its not the policy in all school districts; but it should be. I am all for employees hanging out and being friends but on social media it's a different story. I have very close friends who are teachers and some of their closest friends were fellow teachers they met at their employment. That is besides the point.

                      You should approach social media with the idea that anything you say, do, post, or share on there can be used against you from a workplace standpoint. If you are entrusted in the care of students and minors; consider the magnifying glass much greater. I could care less what Zappos thinks or encourages their employees to partake in. I work for corporate America and have for many years. Our corporate HR forbids any manager from friending fellow employees on any SM platform. Moslty because employees were using what was posted, inappropriately, on SM to oust managers. I take it upon myself to protect myself and my life by keeping my accounts 100% private. It's called being smart. If you work for the local mom & pop shop; things may be different but when your swimming in the sea of corporate fish; you protect yourself.

                      The eventer in question has been ousted on COTH before without publicly posting the name of the individual. It is well known. Whether or not those who have been affected by this persons' actions have reported it to authorities or safe sport, is a different matter. I am sure Karma will catch up to this trainer at some point and who knows, maybe they are being watched by safesport

                      There are many on here who believe Mr. Morris is also under watch. Which is the reason behind him disappearing in recent years. Anyone read his book and his boasting about the thousands of men he's slept with, repeatedly in said book? Red flag warning.

                      I had a great childhood growing up in the barns and I wouldn't change that for anything. I will note that I had several trainers who were borderline mentally abusive. It wasn't all roses. But my childhood friendships and barn memories are wonderful ones. With that being said; my parents were always involved. they worked closely with the barn owners and trainers and knew what was going on. Todays world is not the same as it was 20-30 yrs ago. If you operate a barn as a business or a trainer for a barn; you should operate professionally and keep lines of communication open to parents and the children, alike.
                      Emails should be used for general communication about things, its still just as relevant as texting or instant messaging on social media. If you have a question or concern about simple things with tack and horses; its still perfectly acceptable to pick up the phone. Social Media should not be used as proper communication from a business standpoint.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by AllOverFarm View Post
                        Mostly my kids trainer does all contact thru me, so I don’t see much of a hassle with the change. School teachers have been following these same rules for years now.. & I don’t think they gave it a second thought. Just part of the job.
                        No one likes change, so I think that’s what most of the fuss is about. Same as years ago when Jrs had to start wearing helmets with chin straps. Everyone was complaining about that.
                        I guess your kid doesn't help out at the farm when they ride, so wouldn't need to get a text saying the trainer is done with their ride so come get the horse to give it a bath, or wouldnt need to send a text that the fence by the back 40 is broken can someone come out with tools and another pair of hands.

                        Gone will be the days where parents can drop their kids off at the barn and the genuinely helpful and motivated ones can help out and learn. I learned 95% of the stuff that taught me how to be a horse person and prepared me to be a working student for upper level programs by helping out over the summers and weekends. Now I ride in an area with few A rated show barns where these types of learning opportunities would exist, and 95% of the adult horse owners I know can't put a set of standing wraps on. It would literally be my barn-help interview question: can you pull that one there out of his house, put him on the cross ties, and put a set of standing wraps on. The level of horsemanship in the local horse owning population has sunk to "can only lead horses with therapeutic riding suitable temperaments,", "dont know what hives are", "can't wrap a single leg in any way whatsoever under any circumstances", and "dont know what banamine is or how to give 10ccs and see what happens before calling the vet."

                        In this thread everyone says "Let's make it impossible for kids to have any contact with adults outside of their parents, YEAH!" but next week people will be wondering why no one knows how to do a GD thing in the barn anymore, horsemanship is dying a not even slow death, and over in off topic nobody can find a single self directed adult to hire for any job anywhere, and nobody can get their kids to move out of the house, because no one in the current generation has ever been allowed to text a non parent adult on their own for any reason, or do effectively ANYTHING for themselves, until they turned 18. Meanwhile this type of alarmist, helicopter protection parenting has been directly and repeatedly linked with notably higher anxiety levels and lack of self agency in the younger generations.

                        Wouldnt it be more reasonable for parents of kids who do want to learn and spend their summers helping out at the barn to take an active role in asking questions about how today went and periodically reviewing the text messages and communications for appropriateness? If every text message is "Jane is coming at 1 now" or "can you do ice boots for bruno after the treadmill pls" you probably don't need a Safe Sport ban on communications to keep your kid safe.

                        And why on EARTH are people suggesting the phone instead of texts or fb messenger. Hellloooooo people texts and fb messenger are *written down*. Have any of these best-practices-in-communication experts figured out that if you are logged in to your kid's fb messenger you can see the messages in real time on your device??? Literally you can have a little 1" by 3" popup window on the lower right of your screen and monitor every last thing while you're at work. And if your kid drops her iPhone in the porta potty, the record from 2 years ago is still there... But ok, let's encourage all communication to happen via voice where there is no written record. We'll know that a call happened, when we eventually get the Verizon bill, but not what was said. That's so much safer! I spend literally my life at work creating a CYA written email and scanned paper trail of every last client interaction so that three years later I can say "On April 4 2016 you gave this instruction and my response was timely and exactly this," and have been highly compensated to review other people's emails in major litigations to find all the sh*t they never should have put in an email, and the only time I give clients advice over the phone is if it starts with "you didn't hear this from me, but...," and over here on a digital internet platform actual concerned adults are advocating we all switch to the one communication method that leaves no trace.
                        Are. You. People. Kidding. Me.

                        We should be saying that ALL communication should be in writing with some sort of cloud based storage so that there is a record, not the other way around!!

                        Has literally no one learned a single life skill or gathered a single bit of prior life experience in how helping out at a barn or using modern communications technology works that they can apply to this conundrum or wtf is going on here???
                        Last edited by meupatdoes; Jun. 5, 2019, 09:36 AM.
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                        • Delighted to tune in and see a far more productive discussion going on today, gonna give a lot of that thanks to 541hunter for clarifying the culture-shift view that I do find value in. Also gonna second/third RugBug's recent assessment.

                          But I do see the long-game ending up much as meup describes. This world is full of Very Bad Things, most initiated by people with power over you. When they grow up and grow out of the horse phase it will be their boss lording a promotion over them. The drunken & abusive boyfriend. The Swindler. The co-worker showing signs of cracking...

                          It's one thing after another, and for every child sexual abuse story there is another that is equally horrid but of another genre. Monitoring & approving every decision your child makes is not going to help them avoid all the future evils that await them after age 18, and that is short-sighted.

                          We, as an industry, a sport, and a way-of-life, have always prided ourselves on our grit, our determination, our strength and, quite simply, our ability to get a 1200 lb animal to do our bidding. If you want to see US Equestrian lead the way in how to most effectively protect our children then let's build from our long-standing traditions of confidence and character building (which, for sure, several professionals need a refresher course in). Let's teach those kids to stand up for themselves, before rank human or horse, and say Don't. You. Dare.

                          JW was 50 years ago. GM is a dinosaur. I did not even realize until 2 years ago that the shivers that run up my spine when some "gentleman" initiates a casual back rub are justified and right, and that he is crossing a line. I literally convinced myself - all the dozens of times this has happened - that he's just trying to be nice and my physical reaction to his touch is incorrect. This is the education & empowerment I believe some of us see lacking, because I sure as hell wasn't taught about bodily autonomy and my right to it. But there has been an overwhelming shift in that thinking in the past 2 years, to the point that I am viewing a whole lot of crap in my life in a very new & unsettling way.

                          Meanwhile, SafeSport has handed down a lot of new things in that same very short period of time, and being concerned about some of the particulars in this ruling does not mean we're ready to throw the whole thing out. And it most definitely does not mean we don't care about the sexual abuse of minors, and anyone that tries to wield that holier-than-thou argument isn't really worth the time.
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                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                            "It's not that hard" is flippant and shows a lack of consideration for what would be involved. It's not the most difficult process ever, but it is by no means is a throw away in its ease.
                            Lol, maybe if people could be convinced that setting a phone to archive activity on the cloud where it can be reviewed is "not that hard" we could skip the biannual permission slip and just check in on the trainer/kid interaction on occasion, as part of parenting.
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                            Comment


                            • dags I actually deeply agree with your assessment of confidence-building training for kids. There is a massive amount of evidence and data behind a program called empowerment-based self defense. My university happens to offer it as a class and I do the marketing for it. Unlike in traditional self defense classes, the main focus is not physical fighting (though they do cover that a bit), it's on gaining confidence and concrete skills to de-escalate the situation ESPECIALLY in scenarios where the perpetrator is known and liked by the victim. I would love to see SafeSport get on that train, though I admit I have no idea how it could be implemented on a widespread basis.

                              That being said, I continue to feel the need to defend the new policies. I hear you all that you're worried the day of the working student opportunity being over. I've been very hands-on in the barn my whole career and I treasure the opportunities I've had to learn from good horsemen and women. But I've also had people I love be abused by that system when proper safeguards were not in place (not sexually, but emotionally/physically, which SafeSport also attempts to address). I don't think the WS/barn rat culture has to die to protect kids, but I do think it needs to change.

                              I keep reading arguments that WS need to be able to text the trainer back and forth about mundane things—does nobody have radios? Honestly that's how most of the programs I'm familiar with operate. It's really a great solution because it's very public, often multiple people on a channel, and loud enough that passersby can hear the conversation.

                              And the rest of the new policies are covered by trainers being smart about boundaries with their junior WS (i.e., their underage employee). You (general) can still have them in the barn, working and learning. They can still even be alone with you at the barn according to the "observable and interruptible" clause (which, by the way, has a section on best practices that seem very reasonable to me). You can even still have one-on-one meetings with them as long as the doors and blinds are open. The individual training session clause even includes the observable and interruptible language—you only need parental permission if it's not (i.e., if the whole facility is closed to other clients/boarders/whoever). You can still have them in your rig, as long as you get written parental permission (which like, a text is written permission) or you have more than one minor or another adult in the car.

                              It seems to me that the changes are not so oppressive as some are making them out to be.

                              *EDIT: just because I saw meupatdoes's comment about the cloud—super useful for evidence after the fact, but I see the policies for including another adult as trying to catch any untoward behavior MUCH earlier in the process. And as someone who's iCloud account storage gets full very quickly from photos of my beastie, I know a lot of my messages don't get archived lol
                              Last edited by 541hunter; Jun. 5, 2019, 10:45 AM. Reason: edited again to fix a typo

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post

                                Wouldnt it be more reasonable for parents of kids who do want to learn and spend their summers helping out at the barn to take an active role in asking questions about how today went and periodically reviewing the text messages and communications for appropriateness? If every text message is "Jane is coming at 1 now" or "can you do ice boots for bruno after the treadmill pls" you probably don't need a Safe Sport ban on communications to keep your kid safe.

                                And why on EARTH are people suggesting the phone instead of texts or fb messenger. Hellloooooo people texts and fb messenger are *written down*. Have any of these best-practices-in-communication experts figured out that if you are logged in to your kid's fb messenger you can see the messages in real time on your device??? Literally you can have a little 1" by 3" popup window on the lower right of your screen and monitor every last thing while you're at work. And if your kid drops her iPhone in the porta potty, the record from 2 years ago is still there... But ok, let's encourage all communication to happen via voice where there is no written record. We'll know that a call happened, when we eventually get the Verizon bill, but not what was said. That's so much safer! I spend literally my life at work creating a CYA written email and scanned paper trail of every last client interaction so that three years later I can say "On April 4 2016 you gave this instruction and my response was timely and exactly this," and have been highly compensated to review other people's emails in major litigations to find all the sh*t they never should have put in an email, and the only time I give clients advice over the phone is if it starts with "you didn't hear this from me, but...," and over here on a digital internet platform actual concerned adults are advocating we all switch to the one communication method that leaves no trace.
                                Are. You. People. Kidding. Me.

                                We should be saying that ALL communication should be in writing with some sort of cloud based storage so that there is a record, not the other way around!!

                                Has literally no one learned a single life skill or gathered a single bit of prior life experience in how helping out at a barn or using modern communications technology works that they can apply to this conundrum or wtf is going on here???
                                This monitoring of texts and FB messages is exactly what people see as an inconvenience.

                                It’s not a ban on communication, it’s forcing parental involvement.

                                RugBug that opinion you have about women in the military is a stereotype I am well versed in. Usually it comes from men but new experiences. I also don’t think you and others are unreasonable in your opinion about me, it just gets shrugged off.

                                There is education for juniors, there is an attempt to make adult/child interactions more transparent, there is training for adults that has forced them to reflect on their own interactions with adults when they were kids. Put all of these things together and it’s a solid start. We have automatic paper trails with texting now, SS is trying to utilize that.

                                Freak out about the end of times if you will, call me self righteous, rude whatever, but please also throw out ideas that you think would work better rather than saying nope not going to work. Let’s get rid of it.

                                ETA: 541hunter you clearly are way more tactful than I am.

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                                • I think the safe sport rules help to teach everyone.. kids, trainers & all barn staff/clients about red flags. When everyone is aware of what’s appropriate & what’s not... things might be safer.
                                  There was a time when Doctors would go into rooms alone with patients. Because a few Doctors took advantage of this situation, rules & laws changed to protect people. I’m sure most doctors had never crossed the line... but because of a few bad Doctors... now everyone has to follow new rules.
                                  Because of the now rule that doctors must also now have a nurse in the room or the door open... if a doctor doesn’t follow this rule. If raises red flags to 1. Patient might become immediately Uneasy, wondering why is the Doctor not following the rules. 2. If staff members walk by & notice door closed & dr is in room alone with patient... the staff is questioning why? They might walk in & check on things, or be alerted to keep an extra close eye on this particular Dr.

                                  I think the same can be said & done to protect children at barns.... especially the vulnerable working students. the students need to be made aware of what’s appropriate and red flags need to be seen by others...if things aren’t right.

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                                  • Originally posted by 541hunter View Post

                                    I keep reading arguments that WS need to be able to text the trainer back and forth about mundane things—does nobody have radios? Honestly that's how most of the programs I'm familiar with operate. It's really a great solution because it's very public, often multiple people on a channel, and loud enough that passersby can hear the conversation.
                                    Radios are not a great solution. While the communication is instant, it is also instantly gone. So, WS is doing something, gets a radio call to do XYZ while they are in the middle of the other, they finish they other and don't remember the details any longer? They radio back for a repeat and Trainer gets frustrated. I mean, I'm a decent boss, but if I provide a task to someone, I do NOT want to have to repeat the instructions. If the person doesn't understand how to accomplish the task, that's fine. But I don't want to repeat myself.

                                    Texting provides a log so WS can go back when available to refresh. Trainer knows what was asked and can follow up.

                                    Radios are great for horse shows, or when someone on the other end is available for immediate action.

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                                    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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                                    • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                                      I was thinking about this whole 'include a parent' while texting thing.

                                      I am old now so no one has to include my parent in anything, which is a good thing. Because though very tech savvy (at least my father) none of my parents (there are four of them if you count step-parents) text. No amount of convincing has gotten them to do the texting thing.
                                      I mean, maybe if parents want their kid to participate in a sport and start learning how to navigate professional communication (and let's review how many threads get started in this forum with "How do I tell my farrier..." or "I have this issue with my barn owner I don't know how to address by using my words like an independent adult" and perhaps there is a reason so many people these days don't know how to have professional conversations...?) they could perhaps, I don't know, learn.

                                      If you don't have a kid that's learning how to navigate communications skills out there in the world, there's no need to keep yourself up to date with the latest developments in communications technology, but if you did choose to have one.... perhaps you could learn. I grew up before cell phones and dont have kids and I still had to learn these basic life skills as part of holding down a fairly straightforward job that does not require a college degree and being a decent landlord, pet owner, Airbnb host, and generally functioning adult that is easy for other people to do business and communicate with.

                                      But apparently all the trainers and coaches and other adults are supposed to learn and implement these new best practices in communication EXCEPT the parents, who couldn't possibly be expected to learn how the technology works or check in with their kids or scan through the texts on occasion to verify everything is on the up and up.
                                      Last edited by meupatdoes; Jun. 5, 2019, 12:09 PM.
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                                      • Originally posted by AllOverFarm View Post
                                        Because of the now rule that doctors must also now have a nurse in the room or the door open... if a doctor doesn’t follow this rule. If raises red flags to 1. Patient might become immediately Uneasy, wondering why is the Doctor not following the rules. 2. If staff members walk by & notice door closed & dr is in room alone with patient... the staff is questioning why? They might walk in & check on things, or be alerted to keep an extra close eye on this particular Dr.
                                        There is a rule that doctor's must have a nurse in the room?

                                        Are we talking about only with minors?

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                                        • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                                          This monitoring of texts and FB messages is exactly what people see as an inconvenience.
                                          Is that what you've understood the push back to be? Because that's not it at all. Having a record is great...and why I think apps like WhatsApp and Signal are concerning. Predators will 100% use those and skirt these rules.

                                          I have issue with these rules being MANDATORY. Because the people that are going to follow them are most likely the people that there will be no concern about. The ones we ARE concerned about will either ignore the rules or follow them on the face and then use alternate means.





                                          Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
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