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Dog attack at Saugerties

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  • Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

    I can't say for sure, but I'd guess that's because those dogs are trained to take guidance on what to herd, when, and where. They can see their target clearly, and are to take direction from a handler on what to do with their subject.

    An upland bird dog is totally different - independently supposed to go out into the unknown in cover that is 4-5' high looking for something they don't know the location of, without any guidance from the handler. They are to run wildly and blindly until BAM they catch scent. We've had them go on point as far as 3/4 of a mile away. Their "obedience" is limited to a whoa and a recall, more or less - their ability to hold point is developed over their training in general (hold point = get bird, break point = no bird). Some can take directional guidance if they improperly mark a downed bird and can't find it (more of an issue with dogs that are steady to wing and shot). The hunting shows you see don't feature dogs like that, because they're impossible to film - you see the loafer bird dogs that won't venture further than 50 yards out.

    We want the upland dogs to be pretty damned wild and wirey, as they have to be autonomous with a boatload of stamina. You don't want a dog that relies on you to push them along, guide them, turn them, anything. They are to just RUN until they smell a bird.

    This time of year, when you can't get training birds without losing an arm and a leg, the dogs start going berserk - anything with wings has their 100% rapt attention. When we can get quail for training again, they will calm down. Until hunting season, then they're nuts again.

    Retrievers would likely be easier to contain, as they aren't ever to be out finding things the handler hasn't shot first. I don't have personal experience with that, though.

    And last I checked, sheep don't fly away, leaving a dog with nothing. The dog knows that, especially an extremely intelligent dog like a collie.

    Both very high-drive dogs. Completely different in how that manifests. I don't think bird dogs are as smart as collies, honestly.

    (Allllllll that said, I don't know what type of dogs the person who was referencing their dogs go over fences has. I know our bird dogs have gone over/under the backyard fence (6' chainlink with those plastic privacy slats) a few times, so I am speaking for that.)
    Sorry, not buying it.

    I pheasant hunt. Have for years, as has the rest of my family. We’ve had several types of bird dogs, but we currently have two German Shorthaired Pointers. Both have an insane bird drive...when we’re hunting. My 11-year old found her first pheasant for us at 16 weeks old. The instinct is incredible, and we’ve turned down 5-figure offers on her in her prime.

    At home or on a leash, they know they’re not working. They don’t test fences, they don’t make escape attempts, and they sure as hell don’t need 6-foot fences to keep them in. Hell, they don’t even wear their underground fence collars anymore now that they know where the property borders are. And they don’t test it.

    Training is training...and being a hunting dog is no excuse for poor manners.

    ETA: Just caught up by reading the last few pages and realized you weren’t the one that posted about needing certain fence heights. My apologies!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

      I love this reasoning. It’s like with kids. People can tolerate the behavior from their dogs or kids and so therefore we, the general public, must be okay with it. Your hypocrisy is astounding.
      Well, my goodness. If my dog running past you with her hackles up offends you so greatly, please feel free to clutch your pearls and look the other way.

      You're hilarious. Righteous indignation on every thread you participate in. Dog isn't living in your house, doesn't bite people, doesn't make noise, isn't off leash. Pray tell, what is your rub again?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by equiniphile View Post

        Sorry, not buying it.

        I pheasant hunt. Have for years, as has the rest of my family. We’ve had several types of bird dogs, but we currently have two German Shorthaired Pointers. Both have an insane bird drive...when we’re hunting. My 11-year old found her first pheasant for us at 16 weeks old. The instinct is incredible, and we’ve turned down 5-figure offers on her in her prime.

        At home or on a leash, they know they’re not working. They don’t test fences, they don’t make escape attempts, and they sure as hell don’t need 6-foot fences to keep them in. Hell, they don’t even wear their underground fence collars anymore now that they know where the property borders are. And they don’t test it.

        Training is training...and being a hunting dog is no excuse for poor manners.

        ETA: Just caught up by reading the last few pages and realized you weren’t the one that posted about needing certain fence heights. My apologies!
        Both high drive dogs are multiple champions in their respective competitive field. One is better at "turning it off" at home than the other. The other spends every waking moment looking for birds.

        #2 totally tests fencing. Under or over. Her drive doesn't shut off. #1 is constantly backing her on point.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

          Well, my goodness. If my dog running past you with her hackles up offends you so greatly, please feel free to clutch your pearls and look the other way.

          You're hilarious. Righteous indignation on every thread you participate in. Dog isn't living in your house, doesn't bite people, doesn't make noise, isn't off leash. Pray tell, what is your rub again?
          Again I’m not the one disagreeing with a total ban on dogs at horse shows. In fact I support it. You’re the one with the issue not me. You’re the one with the special dog not me. I trained mine.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

            Again I’m not the one disagreeing with a total ban on dogs at horse shows. In fact I support it. You’re the one with the issue not me. You’re the one with the special dog not me. I trained mine.
            We aren't even talking about that any more, from what I understood - we were talking about my (non-mailman-attacking) dog's timidness, and potential avenues to resolve. But if that's where you're at...

            You're a better dog owner/trainer than I! No bones about it. I told my pup you think she's a bad dog, and that I need to train her better. Didn't seem like she cared, but I'll check again later.

            (People do realize that there are issues with animals, like with people, that can't be fully resolved, right? I mean... they're animals, not dirtbikes... phobias, dislikes, food preferences, places they don't want to be touched... you can improve on the stuff, make it manageable, but some things aren't on the table to be fixed, or aren't worth fixing because they don't matter)

            Are you Palmbeach's child? You guys think along the same vein. 100% of issues in 100% of animals can be trained out, regardless of their past - no behavior outside of my acceptable box is to be tolerated, no matter how benign or inconsequential.

            And on that note, I'm done here. Unless other people want to post pictures of their dogs, then I'm totally game.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

              We aren't even talking about that any more, from what I understood - we were talking about my (non-mailman-attacking) dog's timidness, and potential avenues to resolve. But if that's where you're at...

              You're a better dog owner/trainer than I! No bones about it. I told my pup you think she's a bad dog, and that I need to train her better. Didn't seem like she cared, but I'll check again later.

              (People do realize that there are issues with animals, like with people, that can't be fully resolved, right? I mean... they're animals, not dirtbikes... phobias, dislikes, food preferences, places they don't want to be touched... you can improve on the stuff, make it manageable, but some things aren't on the table to be fixed, or aren't worth fixing because they don't matter)

              Are you Palmbeach's child? You guys think along the same vein. 100% of issues in 100% of animals can be trained out, regardless of their past - no behavior outside of my acceptable box is to be tolerated, no matter how benign or inconsequential.

              And on that note, I'm done here. Unless other people want to post pictures of their dogs, then I'm totally game.
              Uh the thread is about dogs at horse shows. You made it about your dog. And I’m not the only one questioning the training of your dog and the hunting dogs.

              Sorry for the advice to make your dog feel better. By all means keep on.

              Sorry your issues were my issues. I just spent the time to deal with them instead of shrugging them off.

              You want a dog thread? Start one in the menagerie forum.

              Comment


              • Just to get this back on track: did I read this right? A high-ish profile trainer continues to bring 1 or more disruptive dog(s) to horse shows? And the show management does not have the __ to refuse her entries? Seriously? And now a kid and her puppy were victims of this? Wow. This is sad. I am happy not to be another trainer, having to work around this with my clients. What an ugly mess. Very sad about the traumatic events with the child.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                  Well, my goodness. If my dog running past you with her hackles up offends you so greatly, please feel free to clutch your pearls and look the other way.
                  Actually, I have to say that, as a person who was bitten by a dog without warning--at a horse show, no less--if I saw your dog with its hackles up I'd be clutching a LOT more than my pearls.

                  You and your dog have a right to have training issues. I have a right to not be exposed to those issues.

                  And my right at a horse show as a paying customer who does not bring a disruptive animal--that has no actual need to be on the property--trumps the living heck out of your right to bring a disruptive animal on the property. Because raised hackles ARE disruptive to people who don't like or are afraid of dogs.

                  Repeat: raised hackles are disruptive, frightening even, to those who don't like or are afraid of dogs.

                  You have a dog that is afraid of strangers so you leave it tied up unattended in an environment full of strangers and expect the strangers to know that her displays of aggression are actually fear.

                  And of course, there is no such thing as canine fear aggression, right? No dog EVER bit someone out of fear? Even if that person was not, themselves, being aggressive? Puh-leeeese. I can tell you it is not a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card for the dog. I'm sure the dog that sparked this thread "has anxiety" and "is scared of strangers" too.

                  You know you're one loose horse or wandering child away from a disaster? And what happens if she ever slips her collar and someone tries to catch her for you?

                  You, as her owner, have a responsiblity to protect your dog's life by keeping her OUT of situations where she may be escalated to fear-biting, yet you're arguing for the right to put her into the type of situation that could very well be her ruin.

                  This is the poster child for why dogs should not be at horse shows!

                  I do not understand why dog people feel that non-dog people should be forced to be around dogs at non-dog-related activities. Not everyone likes dogs. NO ONE has to like YOUR (G-you) dog and its (g) behavioral problems. If you want to partake in activities with your dog, take up agility or trials or something. I promise I won't show up (with or without my horse) if you do.

                  Comment


                  • It seems that we are having fun discussing how bad an dog owner here is whose dog MIGHT do something horrible in the possible future RATHER than discussing the dog owner whose dog ALREADY HAS DONE SOMETHING HORRIBLE WITH NO CONSEQUENCES.

                    Just sayin'...
                    "Oh, sure, you may be able to take down one smurf, but mark my words: You bonk one smurf, you better be ready for a blue wave."---Bucky Katt

                    Comment


                    • I know that horsepeople are nutty and delusional about their dogs; even more nutty and delusional than they are about their horses. I am no exception. But there's still a disconnect here that I am not understanding.

                      For the record, I have had dogs my entire adult life. Labs and lab crosses, all obedience trained to AT LEAST Canine Good Citizen, one to Companion Dog. All had good off leash heeling and very good recall. They all went to the barn with me, went riding with me, and went pretty much everywhere I went with the truck or car. Good around horses, very friendly, mellow, low prey drive, not barky or nippy.

                      I was even pretty successful in finding places to vacation that would allow the dog.

                      I took them to shows, on leash, when I attended as a spectator as part of their puppy socialization, in the same way I took them to shopping centers or parks. But that was a handful of times with each individual dog, not a routine thing. And I would sometimes take them on cross-country course walks on the day before cross country at local events.

                      But I didn't take any of them to shows where I was either coaching or competing. Why didn't I take my lovely, well-behaved, well-socialized dogs with me? Because I didn't have a moment to spare for them; and I figured they'd be much happier at home or at the barn, a familiar place that they knew I was coming back to; rather than in a strange place, in a stall or tied up. And even with a lovely, well behaved dog, you have times when you need to attend to their needs. If I couldn't actually spend time with them and pay attention to them, why would I think they'd be happier at the show than at the barn?

                      How exactly is this benefiting the dog? I'm not sure it's even benefiting the owner, because they're not actually spending time with the dog! I'm dubious about the saving on pet sitting costs; especially since the liability from a single dog-related show incident WAY outstrips the pet sitting costs.

                      I absolutely think any off leash dog at a horse show is a hazard and a nuisance, and most leashed dogs are only slightly better.

                      I wouldn't have any problem with either BIG fines for unleashed dogs or a total ban. (Because we're talking about horsepeople, I will acknowledge that "total ban" means fewer dogs; and dogs hidden in RVs, trailers and trucks; not actually no dogs.)
                      Last edited by McGurk; Jul. 15, 2019, 11:56 AM.
                      The plural of anecdote is not data.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by RHdobes563 View Post
                        It seems that we are having fun discussing how bad an dog owner here is whose dog MIGHT do something horrible in the possible future RATHER than discussing the dog owner whose dog ALREADY HAS DONE SOMETHING HORRIBLE WITH NO CONSEQUENCES.

                        Just sayin'...
                        I think that it makes sense. We have an owner who has a dog with a lot of fear issues, and who raises its hackles, but the owner insists on bringing the dog to shows because there are zero other options and argues about training. It's a good set up for a unsuspecting person getting bitten. It's the my dog is special, my dog wouldn't bite anyone, my dog has to be with me, my dog only bit that one dog that one time and it was that other dog's fault, that causes problems.
                        http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post

                          I think that it makes sense. We have an owner who has a dog with a lot of fear issues, and who raises its hackles, but the owner insists on bringing the dog to shows because there are zero other options and argues about training. It's a good set up for a unsuspecting person getting bitten. It's the my dog is special, my dog wouldn't bite anyone, my dog has to be with me, my dog only bit that one dog that one time and it was that other dog's fault, that causes problems.
                          I was sitting in the bleachers with an owner like that, she(ellen) had a border collie with her. I could see that the dog was anxious so I asked about him. Yes he is a fear biter, he was feral, he is only ok with her...and in the middle of the conversation a mutual friend, Brooke, arrived and sat down on the row below ours. Brooke heard about the dog's issues, and leaned into his space abruptly to say "oh, poor buddy". It all happened in a flash. He snapped at brooke, teeth bared, while also sort of scrambling backwards. He got some of her hair but no skin. Brooke was mortified to have upset him. But guys, what the hell is a dog like that doing in the bleachers at a horse show???????

                          Comment


                          • Well, people are stupid. <--- my explanation for a lot of things.

                            I showed yesterday and brought my 8 month old pupasauraus with me, as usual. He had a great time- he got to make a lot of friends, human and dog and horse, we watched a bunch of jumper rounds, he charmed everyone in the office, and when I was riding he chilled out under my rig. He was happy as an oversized clam.

                            I'd be very sad if I could not longer bring him with me, especially since I'm not stupid and don't bring reactive, fearful dogs to public events. I have rescued several of those and never, ever, even when I was first still figuring out the best way of managing that sort of dog, did it occur to me that I should plop them down in the middle of a bunch of people and other animals.

                            It's up to us to act in our animals' best interests, so, for example, bringing our St. Bernard, who had fear aggression, out in public was only done with his basket muzzle on and in controlled circumstances, and only when necessary. Fear in a dog is a terrible thing, and we were always careful not to subject our poor guy to something that would have made him feel like he needed to react. He was an extreme example, since he was huge and could have easily seriously injured someone. Regardless, it's just selfish and unkind (and potentially dangerous) to subject one's dog to something that makes it scared and defensive just because the owner wants it with them and can't sort out an alternative.
                            You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that won't change its shape. Jets to Brazil

                            Comment


                            • Here at Breyerfest and just saw a a German Shepherd- like dog wearing a muzzle and a collar that's says "Do not touch". WTF is it doing at a hot, overcrowded venue full of little kids and adults who aren't animal savvy?? I don't understand anyone who has a non-service animal here, TBH. The pavement was so hot on Friday that my feet started to get hot through my SNEAKERS while I stood in line waiting for our pizza. And idiot dog owners were blithely dragging their poor dogs around on the pavement and wondering why the dogs didn't want to move!!

                              That's animal abuse. Full stop. And for what? I'm sure the dog isn't enjoying itself. Is it ok to expose a dog to the potential for 2nd degree burns to it's paws because it's owner can't be assed to get a dog sitter??

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wanderosa View Post
                                Here at Breyerfest and just saw a a German Shepherd- like dog wearing a muzzle and a collar that's says "Do not touch". WTF is it doing at a hot, overcrowded venue full of little kids and adults who aren't animal savvy?? I don't understand anyone who has a non-service animal here, TBH. The pavement was so hot on Friday that my feet started to get hot through my SNEAKERS while I stood in line waiting for our pizza. And idiot dog owners were blithely dragging their poor dogs around on the pavement and wondering why the dogs didn't want to move!!

                                That's animal abuse. Full stop. And for what? I'm sure the dog isn't enjoying itself. Is it ok to expose a dog to the potential for 2nd degree burns to it's paws because it's owner can't be assed to get a dog sitter??
                                The only explanation I have is it's a professional dog handler who's in the final stages of retraining a dog, has upped the ante to large crowds, and loves Breyers. As far as the dogs on hot pavement, I have no idea why there isn't some sort of Heat Index for dog owners.
                                http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post

                                  The only explanation I have is it's a professional dog handler who's in the final stages of retraining a dog, has upped the ante to large crowds, and loves Breyers. As far as the dogs on hot pavement, I have no idea why there isn't some sort of Heat Index for dog owners.
                                  There are many. But---"you can lead a horse to water..."
                                  Her's an example: https://www.gopetplan.com/blogpost/paws-on-hot-pavement
                                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post

                                    The only explanation I have is it's a professional dog handler who's in the final stages of retraining a dog, has upped the ante to large crowds, and loves Breyers. As far as the dogs on hot pavement, I have no idea why there isn't some sort of Heat Index for dog owners.
                                    There is. It’s called the heat index.
                                    ~Veronica
                                    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post

                                      The only explanation I have is it's a professional dog handler who's in the final stages of retraining a dog, has upped the ante to large crowds, and loves Breyers. As far as the dogs on hot pavement, I have no idea why there isn't some sort of Heat Index for dog owners.
                                      I would still argue that even if that's the case, it doesn't belong at Breyerfest. It was so hot that every second person was arguing with each other, and I can't begin to explain the crowds. It was shoulder to shoulder in the arena/vendor/barn areas. And plastic horses is apparently the closest contact with animals 2/3 of them get. Because I saw people reaching down to pat service dogs that were wearing their vests, etc. Not a stretch for some kid to come up behind the dog and pat it without noticing the muzzle and collar.

                                      As for the pavement temperature, I suppose it's more an Owner Stupidity Index than a Heat Index that we need. I mean, I was standing in an unshaded paved area where there was a wood burning pizza oven set up. It was less than 10 minutes that I could feel. The. Heat. Through. My. Shoes. And the radiant heat from the pavement was starting to make my ankles feel like they were burning. And some idiot literally drags her poor dog out of the tent over to the lemonade stand. I also saw a husky lying on the ground in the covered arena that looked to me to be in genuine distress from the heat. Their coat insulates them somewhat from the sun but not from walking around for 10 hours in a building with an ambient air temperature in the 90's.

                                      Comment


                                      • I don’t get the whole ‘can’t get a dog sitter’ excuse. Many, many people work 8-5. With commute, it’s not uncommon for dogs to be home alone for 10 hours. If how many millions of working Americans with dogs can figure out a way to accommodate their dogs when they are at work, why can’t the ‘spezhul’ horse owners do the same for the time they are at a show? Do they not have backyards? Install a doggy door and leave your dog at home.
                                        I have had so, so many bad experiences with other peoples’ dogs. I don’t want to have your random dog around my horse. I don’t want your dog around me.

                                        Comment


                                        • Ok, one more because I have no self control.

                                          First, dog stays IN MY DAMN TRAILER with her personal fan.

                                          Dog is NOT reactive, snippy, quick, bitey, barky, growly - she's a coward, without a bite - period. Dog does NOT go to barns. Dog is NOT tied in aisles. Dog is NOT left in a stall. Dog does NOT go to bleachers. Dog does NOT go to show office. Dog does NOT go to any area where she interacts with strangers. The closest she gets to any of that is a couple cross country walks.

                                          Again, dog stays IN MY DAMN TRAILER with her personal fan. If someone walks in my trailer and is offended about the hackles, that's fine because my question is why were you in my trailer?

                                          I manage my dog in a way that there is zero, read that, zero chance she will get into trouble. She's in a collar she can not slip (2" martingale), on a leash she can not chew (cable). I can whoa down her from a dead run 100 yards out with 100% proof, with skid marks she hits the ground so fast. She's managed in a way that is 100% unobtrusive to every other competitor. I'd guess 99 out of 100 don't even know I have a dog there with me. I'm not taking Hackles into the barns and bleachers with me, because I'm not dumb.

                                          You don't want her there? Change the rules. Till then, she's coming with me, like the 15+ other shows she's already been at (and caused zero trouble).

                                          Yall need to hang around better dog people if you have a laundry list of bad stuff that's happened to you or your immediate friends. That's ridiculous, and there's no excuse for it.

                                          Comment

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