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What is it called?

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  • Original Poster

    #41
    Wanderosa I think that might be it. I remember it being clever just like that!

    Comment


    • #42
      I think any of stonewalling, stalemating, co-dependency or pigeon-holing all could apply to what you described OP.
      Proud Member of the "Tidy Rabbit Tinfoil Hat Wearers" clique and the "I'm in my 30's and Hope to be a Good Rider Someday" clique

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

        A huge part of the puzzle here is simply cash, or lack of it. Around here the cost of a horse at least doubles if it can do 3 foot and above. And the price goes up if you want to be competitive rated as opposed to just schooling shows. Also the cost of the show itself goes up!

        ..............
        A very good point, and it's just as true of the instructor/trainer. Many who do specialize in the 2'6" and under keep one or a few lesson horses. It's a lot easier to keep schoolies going at max 2'6". Although some of the lesson horses may have 3' in them, that seems to be the point that separates a more sell-able horse from a veteran schoolie who is carrying some miles.

        Also to teach at 3'+, the instructor may feel some pressure to keep up their own cred at the level, if she/he doesn't already have a long track record. So that means the instructor spending their own money on showing & horse, depending on their youth and time as a professional. I'm sure we've all known of some younger instructor/trainer/coaches who are also going up the showing ladder themselves, sometimes just barely ahead of their students.

        Comment


        • #44
          From what I've seen its pretty difficult if not impossible for a coach with an active viable lesson/showing program to also be seriously competing themselves, especially at a higher level.

          Once you are in business, client revenue has to rule the day. So you take five tweens to do the two foot six and nine, and spend all day coaching and babysitting to earn your day fees.

          Around here, most of the competition is at two foot nine and under. Those shows will have a few three foot classes but often not many entries. If you want to go three foot six, 4 feet, that is a whole other world. If a coach wanted to go that direction they'd be giving up all their weekend lesson income to go off on their own to another tier of showing, and might have to travel.

          So a coach teaching at that level is pretty much limited to taking projects or greenies to the low level shows, and doing a round while someone else keeps an eye on the kiddies.

          I honestly don't know how someone around here ends up doing 4 foot jumpers at Spruce Meadows. There are a few people here on that circuit but they are totally invisible from where i sit. I met some once, through a friend, that's how I even know they exist . They don't bring their greenies up through cross poles or make an appearance at that level of show.

          They also don't run beginner kiddie programs.

          They clearly come up a different route and fast track their horses on a different route.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by skydy View Post

            You may have understood why there is little patience, if you had seen this OP's vulgar, edited by the Mods, then deleted (by the OP) responses to posters that kindly took time to answer her questions.
            interesting. not aware of that. I don't tend to keep track of too many posters - i tend to have more recall about the post than the poster if that makes sense.. though there are a few..

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by skydy View Post

              You may have understood why there is little patience, if you had seen this OP's vulgar, edited by the Mods, then deleted (by the OP) responses to posters that kindly took time to answer her questions.
              Well, clearly she has learned from her frustration and moved forward. I suggest you do the same in kind. It doesn't matter what she said in April, we are now in May. Growth is an amazing process, and I am truly impressed with how well Equestrianette has handled the unnecessary badgering on this thread. Clearly she learned a lot since that last string and had handled herself with grace and dignity. I applaud her effort.

              Comment


              • #47
                What is it called? It is called "trainer doesn't have the ability to take that horse and rider further"; "rider on that horse isn't able to go further without dying"; "horse's scope is limited and that's as far as it can go and not kill rider"; "rider doesn't have the money to invest in more shows/lessons to go higher" or "rider doesn't have the money to buy horse that can go higher". I have never seen a trainer knowingly (with malice) hold some back, trainers make most of their money from horse shows, not lessons or board so from a business standpoint, keeping someone at "b" or "c" shows or schooling shows or low level classes is bad for business. As a trainer said to me one time "if my clients fall and break, they stop paying me money". So there isn't a conspiracy to hold folks back. Just my opinion.
                kenyagirl

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by skydy View Post

                  You may have understood why there is little patience, if you had seen this OP's vulgar, edited by the Mods, then deleted (by the OP) responses to posters that kindly took time to answer her questions.
                  That doesn't really matter if the OP isn't posting vulgar, rude comments here on this thread. Hopefully the OP is over that and moving forward, and you should too.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    I know of a barn/trainer whose business model is based on IEA and local shows. Because IEA does not go above 2'6" none of their clients do either. The clients that want to move up, move on.

                    I've learned that you never want to be the best rider at a barn, far better to be at the bottom; plenty of room to grow.

                    What is the name for this? Focused? Niche? Artificially Limited? Selfish Inhibition?

                    Either way could be a positive or a negative feature in a barn/trainer depending on your perspective.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Thing is, if you look at the order of go for our local rated shows, there is a huge drop off in competitors above two foot nine hunter/ jumper and First Level dressage.

                      That means that *most* coaches do not get their clients above that point, whether this is due to coach lack of skill, or client lack of cash for more competitive horse.

                      The ammie jumping 3 foot 6 or riding a 4th level dressage test is an outlier. Not impossible but rare, and they have definitely invested cash in the horse and training.

                      I think that excellent riders who have ambitions plus deep pockets eventually find the coach that can support them in going higher. But I would not be looking for disparaging names for the body of coaches that help fill out the lower levels of the sport, because there is absolutely a level of competency needed to get students placing in huge jumper classes of 30 horses. Even at two foot six. Especially when the pony riders tend to clean up at that height.

                      Individual coaches, yeah I've seen both really competent and rather misguided in both dressage and jumping.

                      There was a thread recently by an Alberta coach horse shopping for a client who also said the two foot six and nine were getting very competitive there too, and she was astonished at how the cost had gone up alot for horses for that level. Not $5000 anymore!

                      Anyhow for all of us, it is useful to be aware of the real contours of the situation we are in, but also realistic about our own ability and trajectory.

                      When we are unsure of where we fit in and trying hard to get established, it's tempting to want to blame our lack of progress on the existence of so many other mediocre players in the field. And it's tempting to want to name them, dismiss them, feel that we are smarter than them and won't fall into that trap.

                      But really what we need to do is understand the real limitations facing everyone (like not being able to spend $60,000 on a horse, or even $15,000), and how those will likely apply to us too.

                      And then you just have to work on yourself. Stop fixating on what everyone else is doing, learn to ride as well as you can, and save your competition for when you are actually in the show ring.

                      They day you get to be dismissive about the permanent two foot nine league is when you can go in and consistently beat them all. By which point you will hopefully be a gracious winner.

                      Until you are regularly beating them in competition, you have no right to say they are being held back because even you aren't at that level yet.

                      After you are beating them regularly and have invested $35,000 in a scopey new project horse you won't even care about them.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        The schooling-show lifers and the rated-show group are two different universes, as someone above mentioned.

                        One end may not be aware of the other because they don't cross tracks. People tend to live inside their own world. Some are aware that it is not *the* world, just *their* world. Others aren't so aware and think that most people are like themselves.

                        There are any number of low-level show facilities who make their money on unrated "schooling" shows, meaning they have plenty of entries,. And that the same names tend to turn up weekend after weekend - the same trainers as well. I know of one who runs schooling shows in various disciplines most weekends of the year and has a waiting list for entries. This facility also runs a handful of rated shows each year to "prove" their courses are up to par. The owner told me she does not make money on the rated shows and considers them a necessary evil.

                        More people drive Toyotas and Fords then drive Ferraris. For every over-subscribed high-level rated show, there are several unrated shows in the same discipline on the same weekend. For most disciplines.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          [QUOTE=McGurk;n10393613] - 8 spots and 2 changes at 3' /QUOTE]
                          McGurk what does this term mean? Specifically the spots bit

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            [QUOTE=-Buckshot-;n10395366]
                            Originally posted by McGurk View Post
                            - 8 spots and 2 changes at 3' /QUOTE]
                            McGurk what does this term mean? Specifically the spots bit
                            I'm assuming this is the typical hunter course with 8 jumps that you need to reach in a set number of strides.

                            For the difference between hunter and jumper, and why coaches often specialize in only one,

                            https://www.ushja.org/about-us-and-n...nterjumper-101

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by -Buckshot- View Post
                              Originally posted by McGurk View Post
                              - 8 spots and 2 changes at 3'
                              McGurk what does this term mean? Specifically the spots bit
                              Eight spots means eight perfect jumps. Not leaving early, not getting too close to the base, eight jumps where the horse left just right to look the best and make the course look flowing and even.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                I don't think they do it on purpose, but I used to work at a barn that is more of a day camp during the summer, with an equestrian program during the rest of the year. The people that own it are NOT horse people, they hire barn managers to run the place and it's usually people brought up riding in their backyard without a whole lot of real horsemanship skills as far as riding and horse care. There were some kids that had some real talent that could go far if they left and went to another facility to really learn to ride, but they are the "top dog" at this place where no one really knows much and I think they are encouraged to stay. It's been hard to watch them regress after me and my friends left to go on to "real-life" jobs, we had them going well and were hoping they would move on. Some did, but most of those that did ended up going back, probably because they weren't the "advanced" riders at the places they tried anymore. This place would lose a lot of their clients if those kids did move on to a better barn so they could advance, though. So it's become more of a "stay here so you can spend time with *your favorite horse*" type of thing, than actually learning anything.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Stagnating?
                                  ~Veronica
                                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Gas-lighting your clients so they are afraid to move up? Sandbagging probably makes more sense.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by bangboombaby View Post
                                      Gas-lighting your clients so they are afraid to move up? Sandbagging probably makes more sense.
                                      To me sandbagging has a slightly different connotation-- to me it means holding back after you are well past that skill level so you are more likely to win. Like continuing to do a class like 'long stirrup' for a decade on an experienced horse when at home you're jumping 3'-- because you prefer to be assured of getting blue ribbons than competing against riders of similar skill in more advanced classes.

                                      I didn't *quite* get that to be what OP was talking about? Being stuck at a level for lack of horseflesh to me isn't really sandbagging.
                                      ~Veronica
                                      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post
                                        I don't think they do it on purpose, but I used to work at a barn that is more of a day camp during the summer, with an equestrian program during the rest of the year. The people that own it are NOT horse people, they hire barn managers to run the place and it's usually people brought up riding in their backyard without a whole lot of real horsemanship skills as far as riding and horse care. There were some kids that had some real talent that could go far if they left and went to another facility to really learn to ride, but they are the "top dog" at this place where no one really knows much and I think they are encouraged to stay. It's been hard to watch them regress after me and my friends left to go on to "real-life" jobs, we had them going well and were hoping they would move on. Some did, but most of those that did ended up going back, probably because they weren't the "advanced" riders at the places they tried anymore. This place would lose a lot of their clients if those kids did move on to a better barn so they could advance, though. So it's become more of a "stay here so you can spend time with *your favorite horse*" type of thing, than actually learning anything.
                                        And actually there is nothing wrong with that. It's how a lot of recreational riders interact with their horses.

                                        If the kids that left returned because they were uncomfortable facing a steep new learning curve, then that's proof that *those particular kids* lack the grit and determination to learn more, and perhaps their parents lack the cash to fund a better horse at the new barn.

                                        My guess is that the clientele for this barn self selects, and the parents and kids that want a more ambitious experience go to other barns in the first place, or after one or two lessons here.

                                        Kids and teens ride for many different reasons, and having a comfortable social environment and safe horse world outside of the pressures of school, home, and boys, is a very valuable thing. Not all kids are competitive, and not all kids who have natural riding talent are in a headspace to maximize that talent in a rigorous training program.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          @Buckshot,

                                          Yes, Scribbler and trubandloki defined it correctly. A good trip in the hunter ring consists of 8 consistent spots or distances to the fences and two flying changes (or landing correctly.)

                                          It's simple, but it's not easy. Reducing it to "8 spots and 2 changes" is somewhat ironic or tongue in cheek.

                                          So there's a local pro, a VERY talented rider, who's sort of the undisputed king of the local circuit, who can get on ANYTHING and produce a nice 3' hunter trip. Which takes considerable skill. To produce the same sort of trip at 3'3" or 3'6", he requires a horse with a little talent as well, but he can coax a good 3' trip out of a donkey. This rider is very capable of showing in the As regularly or showing in the jumpers, but he chooses to concentrate on the local circuit and doing a handful of nearby As. He has made a pretty nice career of it; riding, training and teaching.

                                          When I was branching out to eventing and jumpers, he joked self-deprecatingly, that he couldn't, he only knew how to do one thing well, and that was 8 spots and 2 changes at 3'.

                                          I have never asked his reasons, I suspect it's a combo of dislike of overnight travel, staying in a comfort zone, and recognizing that staying at this level is secure living with a stable client base.
                                          Last edited by McGurk; May. 17, 2019, 03:05 PM.
                                          The plural of anecdote is not data.

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