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  • #21
    I have been on COTH for a while and this is a topic that interests me a bit, but I've never heard any specific term.

    I would also add that I know some low level or backyard coaches whose students never progress or who in fact go downhill. It's not that the coaches want this to happen. It's that they teach the student the wrong things or miss basics.

    That said, I think it's also true that most lesson programs don't jump their schoolies over two foot six but also that within that limitation you can create an excellent rider with seat, form, flatwork, eye for distances, good hands, good judgement. Height jumped is not the only metric of rider ability.

    Same in dressage. You can create a very good rider on a Training or First Level horse, especially if you do a lot of walk lateral work. Being able to muscle a horse into a few "advanced" moves is not the only metric of rider ability.

    As far as how fast students progress, as beginners we have few expectations but generally progress quite fast up to a point. At advanced beginner or lower intermediate, however, many people start to plateau but just at the point they have been riding long enough to have formed some expectations or goals or dreams or envies.

    It takes a lot of coherent conscious saddle time, and some good instruction on technique, for most riders to move forward past the basics. It's also where your own physical or emotional limitations will start to really emerge as issues, whether that's tight hips or fear of galloping or jumps, or inability to focus, or inability to learn from criticism.

    This is where you need to relearn the humble beginner's mind all over again.

    It's also where you need to take honest responsibility for your own progress. There may indeed be a point where you need to switch instructors. If you do, go for the one that is giving you more coherent and clear advice on form and position.

    Comment


    • #22
      Think sometimes it’s fine to stay with a trainer that can’t advance you past a certain point if you don’t want to advance or cannot afford a horse to advance with you. Hard to evaluate whether a trainer is actually preventing clients from advancing or they want or need to stay where they are. You can’t know without more details.

      Does it happen, sure. But most of the time rider isn’t ready to safely advance or, more often, cannot afford to as they do not own a horse and schoolies that can handle the next step are not available priced by the ride, only if at least part leased. Or maybe they do own a horse but it’s not able to step up and they don’t want to sell it. Or maybe they own one but do not ride it well enough and won’t listen So trainer says no to a move up. Wisely.

      I have heard many claim the trainer was holding them back but knew the situations and, nope, either they weren’t safe to step up or lacked the horse for it. Not the trainers doing. Best not to assume anything without knowing the details.
      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

      Comment


      • #23
        Yes, whether the trainer is holding them back or whether the horses available are holding them back are somewhat different things. That might be the quality of lesson horse or lease horse or even private horse.

        IMHO opinion no one has any right to grumble that their instructor is holding them back. If they don't like their instructor, go to another barn. If you don't like lesson horses, buy your own horse. If you can't afford your own horse that can perform at the desired level, then you've been priced out of an expensive sport. Sad but true, and not your instructors fault.

        If you see other riders failing to progress, unless they are your own children, MYOB. You don't know where they started or where they hope to go, or what challenges or limitations they are facing.

        And as I said before, fence height is not the sole metric of rider progress.

        Comment


        • #24
          I'm wondering if the term was "learned helplessness," which could possibly result from some instructors' teaching methods and/or personality defects.
          "Dogs give and give and give. Cats are the gift that keeps on grifting." —Bradley Trevor Greive

          Comment


          • #25
            You might be looking for "asshole." They're everywhere in the horse industry and many are happy to take your money without moving you up to a level that would require them to actually TRAIN you or a horse.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by chestnutmarebeware View Post
              I'm wondering if the term was "learned helplessness," which could possibly result from some instructors' teaching methods and/or personality defects.
              That's what I was thinking. I've seen this term used here.
              "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
              that's even remotely true."

              Homer Simpson

              Comment


              • #27
                First, I'm not sure why some posters cannot refrain from insulting another poster when they come on here asking a question. I'm sure most of us can related to times when we're in a discussion and can't remember a word, an actor, or whatever and it drives us crazy until bingo you remember in the middle of the night.

                I agree with Scribbler's post, there are some trainers out there who don't have the experience/wheelhouse to train people above a certain level and they would prefer to keep the client rather than send them on their way. At some point, clients have a choice to move on or stick it out. I know of one former barnmate who was frustrated at our barn because she wanted to move up, trainer didn't think she and her new horse were ready. She left and for the past several years, she's been paying big $ for a trainer so show her horse and she's yet to show at the level she wanted to move up to.

                The main thing is communication between client and trainer. I always admired the trainers who brought clients to a certain level and sent them on their way. There were several of these who pretty much stuck to schooling shows, gave their clients an excellent foundation so when the time came to move up - she sent them on their way with her blessing and support. Trainers should take great satisfaction in knowing that they were the ones who set them on their path, gave them the foundation and skills to become better riders and in some cases BNR today.

                Comment


                • #28
                  gottagrey gottahave you read OPs other posts/responses to replies on their posts...OP does seem to have a bit of "learned asshole" in them.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Gee thanks.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      It's definitely a thing, I've known of more than one program that is comfortable at a certain level and no one goes above that. Usually it's been a career instructor who has been a fixture for many years in the local riding community, who is comfortable at the level and wants to keep their clients there. Sometimes it's that the instructor doesn't ride above that level (although they may try to imply that they have a grand and accomplished past that doesn't stand up to investigation). Sometimes it's that the instructor is uncomfortable trying to coach above that level, regardless of their own riding background. And sometimes it's that the instructor believes (with reason) that the majority of the local riding community likes to be at that level, and that's where the instructor feels they will maintain the best income and a continuous stream of clients. Or a combination of the above.

                      Those barns tend to show up at local one-day schooling shows with lots of people and a big trailer full of horses, and fill up the divisions at 2'6" and below. They seem to enjoy what they do. And yes, anyone who wants to do more needs to find another program. If a more ambitious rider has riding friends outside the program then they will likely hear suggestions. If they don't know anyone outside the barn, then they might be puzzled and frustrated.

                      A good reason to join riding clubs and get involved in meetings outside of the shows is to hear what people have to say about various barns, and just get a broader view of the riding landscape.

                      I don't know what term would apply, although this is usually a known characteristic of the barn. We might refer to it as "it's a 2-6 barn" or something like that, I suppose.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Equestrianette View Post
                        That's neither here nor there. I just forgot the term and it's bothering me. So after using the search function and not finding it, I'm asking. Thanks.
                        What I wonder is why you call your "Equestrianette" when there is already a very good term for a female equestrian -- Equestrienne.
                        Rack on!

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          Originally posted by Rackonteur View Post

                          What I wonder is why you call your "Equestrianette" when there is already a very good term for a female equestrian -- Equestrienne.
                          Because I had to think of something on the spot and my other forum name doesn't really apply anymore since that horse passed away. I also didn't know that about "equestrienne" so thanks.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            I wonder what is the point of picking on this one poster? If you don't like her, change the channel. There must be dozens of other COTH threads active right now. Recreational picking isn't interesting for others to read, and it isn't a good look for COTH. It looks the worst on those doing the picking. Just a personal opinion.

                            OP, I suggest not rewarding them with replies. They will continue as long as you do.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
                              It's definitely a thing, I've known of more than one program that is comfortable at a certain level and no one goes above that. Usually it's been a career instructor who has been a fixture for many years in the local riding community, who is comfortable at the level and wants to keep their clients there. Sometimes it's that the instructor doesn't ride above that level (although they may try to imply that they have a grand and accomplished past that doesn't stand up to investigation). Sometimes it's that the instructor is uncomfortable trying to coach above that level, regardless of their own riding background. And sometimes it's that the instructor believes (with reason) that the majority of the local riding community likes to be at that level, and that's where the instructor feels they will maintain the best income and a continuous stream of clients. Or a combination of the above.

                              Those barns tend to show up at local one-day schooling shows with lots of people and a big trailer full of horses, and fill up the divisions at 2'6" and below. They seem to enjoy what they do. And yes, anyone who wants to do more needs to find another program. If a more ambitious rider has riding friends outside the program then they will likely hear suggestions. If they don't know anyone outside the barn, then they might be puzzled and frustrated.

                              A good reason to join riding clubs and get involved in meetings outside of the shows is to hear what people have to say about various barns, and just get a broader view of the riding landscape.

                              I don't know what term would apply, although this is usually a known characteristic of the barn. We might refer to it as "it's a 2-6 barn" or something like that, I suppose.
                              A huge part of the puzzle here is simply cash, or lack of it. Around here the cost of a horse at least doubles if it can do 3 foot and above. And the price goes up if you want to be competitive rated as opposed to just schooling shows. Also the cost of the show itself goes up!

                              You could get your kid a wellbroke horse to lope around the 2 foot 6 and 9 schooling shows for maybe $5000, which is a lot of money to most average families. You might not want to upgrade to $10,000 to $15,000 for a more competitive horse, or go up to $20,000 to jump 3 feet. You might just be doing this as a fun hobby.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Equestrianette View Post

                                Because I had to think of something on the spot and my other forum name doesn't really apply anymore since that horse passed away. I also didn't know that about "equestrienne" so thanks.
                                Don’t feel the need to defend yourself to such asinine questions.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by gottagrey View Post
                                  First, I'm not sure why some posters cannot refrain from insulting another poster when they come on here asking a question. I'm sure most of us can related to times when we're in a discussion and can't remember a word, an actor, or whatever and it drives us crazy until bingo you remember in the middle of the night.
                                  .
                                  You may have understood why there is little patience, if you had seen this OP's vulgar, edited by the Mods, then deleted (by the OP) responses to posters that kindly took time to answer her questions.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by skydy View Post

                                    You may have understood why there is little patience, if you had seen this OP's vulgar, edited by the Mods, then deleted (by the OP) responses to posters that kindly took time to answer her questions.
                                    I'm over it. Why can't you be? Let it go.

                                    Instead of feeding the trolls I'm adding them to my blocked/ignore list. I hope this helps.
                                    Last edited by Equestrianette; May. 15, 2019, 01:37 AM.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Equestrianette View Post

                                      I'm over it. Why can't you be? Let it go.

                                      Instead of feeding the trolls I'm adding them to my blocked/ignore list. I hope this helps.
                                      You are "over it"? What exactly have you overcome?

                                      I hope you will come to understand that we are not here to snipe at one another. When you ask for advice, accept it gracefully, or politely (and intelligently) disagree.

                                      I hope that you are having good rides on your lovely horse and that some of the advice you received on the Eventing forum has helped your cross country issues.
                                      Last edited by skydy; May. 15, 2019, 03:17 AM.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        In Jiu jitsu competition it's called sandbagging. As in, "Don't feel bad about losing that match. Everyone knows that Rickson sandbags his students. That guy you fought has been a white belt for 4 years now."

                                        I don't know if I'd put a lot of the riders who fail to progress past a certain point into the category, though. There's an upper limit to what is safely possible unless you train at a frequency and intensity that most amateurs can't attain.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by skydy View Post

                                          You may have understood why there is little patience, if you had seen this OP's vulgar, edited by the Mods, then deleted (by the OP) responses to posters that kindly took time to answer her questions.
                                          Except now, you look like the d!ck on this bulletin board. Get over it, stop stalking the OP and move on. There must be more productive things to do with your time.
                                          www.DaventryEquestrian.com
                                          Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
                                          Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness
                                          www.EquineAppraisers.com

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