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Hunter Derby cross enter w/National Hunter Classic?-Got anwer...thanks!

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  • Hunter Derby cross enter w/National Hunter Classic?-Got anwer...thanks!

    OK...don't know if any night owls will see this. Just go word from the show we are at that they are telling us we can't cross enter the Int Hunter Derby and the National Hunter Classic Class. It is not in the prizelist and I can't find any restrictions in the Specs on USHJA's site. I'm curious if anyone knows about this. I'm getting up at 5 am so I can call KY for info but thought I'd see what others have experienced. It's frustrating as the only other warmup class goes off at 8 am tomorrow so not much time to get things figured out!...I'd be fine if it was in the prizelist but hard to change plans at the last minute.

    Two years ago we know it was fine to enter both as we won both of them...but now that it's offically a "National Hunter Classic" I don't know if that changes things officially or just the show office changing things as they go.

    Any help/experiences would be appreciated!!

    Last edited by crestline; Aug. 13, 2010, 11:55 AM.
    Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
    Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio

  • #2
    Unless something has changed since Memorial Day, there is no restriction. We had horses in the Derby and in the Classic and there were definitely horses that did both. I also couldn't find anything in the rulebook saying otherwise.


    • #3
      It might be a good idea to have the show office fax number in your hand when you call USEF so they can fax the info to the show secretary directly. Hopefully that will help smooth the way for you.


      • Original Poster

        Thanks guys! Got helpful info from USHJA at crack 'o dawn this AM, :-). Yes, cross entry is allowed.
        Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
        Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio


        • #5
          The Specs for the Classic says it's open to all horses/ponies. The Specs for the Intl Derby says it's open to all horses/ponies as well.

          I assume you are at Evergreen? These are the specs listed in the prize list:

          Bunny Coffin Memorial/USHJA National Hunter Classic:

          Two Round Classic. Fence heights 3’ with a minimum of four fences set at 3’3” to 3’5” in each round as option jumps. The first round will be over a Hunter Classic Course. Top 12 horses (including ties) from Round 1 will return for a second round Handy Hunter Course. Both rounds to be judged on performance, hunter pace and style, quality and substance, movement and brilliance with the final scores from each round combined into the overall total for each horse. Jog: A jog will not be required. Attire: Formal/dress attire, white or buff breeches, shad belly, dark coat, (official sponsor or team jacket permitted). All riders in the top 8 overall placings must ride for ribbons in order to receive prize money.

          Chronicle of the Horse/USHJA International Hunter Derby:

          Two Round Classic. Fence heights 3’6” to 3’9” with a minimum of four 4’0” fences in each round, set as option jumps. Tradition will be emphasized in the attire of both the riders and the horses. Horses will show in traditional hunter tack, including snaffles, pelhams, double bridles and both running and standing martingales. Jog: A jog will be held before the beginning of Round 1. Attire: Formal/dress attire, white or buff breeches, shad belly, dark coat, (official sponsor or team jacket permitted), Judging: At least two teams of judges with at least two judges per team will officiate. Round 1 Hunter Classic Course: Judged on style and brilliance. Minimum of 10 fences with at least one in and out, one bending line, and one line with an unrelated distance. Obstacles will simulate those reminiscent of the hunt field and a variety of jumps will be used. Round 2 Handy Hunter Course: Judged on style, brilliance and handiness. A maximum of 20 bonus points may be awarded by the judges to each horse/rider combination for handiness of round. This score will be announced separately and added to each riders score. The top 12 from Round 1 will return for Round 2. If 12 or less show in the first round, all horses will return for the second round. The course will contain at least two of the following: trot jump, open gate while mounted, lead over a jump, tight turn option, clever options for jump approaches, halt and/or back, walk a jump. Ties: In case of a tie for first place, the horses and riders involved will be asked to perform another round over a shortened jump-off course. For all other ties, one panel of judges will be designated the tie breaking panel. The total of this panel's scores from both Round 1 and Round 2 will be used to break any remaining ties. A special entry blank must be completed by each rider before the class.

          I'm sure this is all of the stuff you found but I figured I'd put it here as well. I can't see any restrictions on it at all??? Huh. Good luck with it!


          • #6
            Originally posted by crestline View Post
            Thanks guys! Got helpful info from USHJA at crack 'o dawn this AM, :-). Yes, cross entry is allowed.
            Good to hear. Is it your stallion in the derbies again? I grew up in WA and have followed his progress for quite awhile


            • #7
              Just wondering...does fence height have something to do with it? Can you take a horse that's shown in the 3'6" and cross enter it into a class with 3' jumps?


              • #8
                I think the original intent of the Bunny Coffin (named after a person, not an object ) was as a class for the horses that didn't jump 3'6", but since that it isn't restricted in the specs I doubt that they can keep you from entering.


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kestrel View Post
                  I think the original intent of the Bunny Coffin (named after a person, not an object ) was as a class for the horses that didn't jump 3'6", but since that it isn't restricted in the specs I doubt that they can keep you from entering.
                  If the specs in the prize list don't prohibit it then it's OK
                  But the show would have the right to prohibit cross entry in just the same way that some shows restrict a rider to 2 horses in a class. Not a USEF rule but a show management decision.


                  • #10
                    Its considered a stepping stone class for the derby for horses/riders to get their toes wet in the competition format. I am surprised a 3'6-4' horse competing in a derby would have any benefit competing in a 3' modified classic, but the trainer/rider/owner would know best .

                    Must admit if I had a legitimate entry in the national and was beat by a horse competing in the derby the same day, I would be remembering that person's name in the future and not for their win

                    If this is evergreen and you don't want to do a division, but do want to warm up the horse on thursday (today) then the two open working hunter classes this morning would have been appropriate, can be entered individually, and have no restrictions.

                    If the horse has any ammy owner, then the modified today and tomorrow can be entered individually.

                    I am curious though, if the horse needs warm-up, why not do the regulars (4') or open working (3'6"). Doing all the open working classes are less money than the one 3' classic I know this isn't possible now that it is thursday night, but I am curious to the reasoning.

                    Hope all worked out and you are having a great show!

                    Let us know what you did!


                    • Original Poster

                      So I had a long story here but I've decided that really all the ins and outs of why we did what don't really matter...just trust me that it was one of those "this is how it worked out" sort of deals and not how our original show plan went...we were not trying ot do anything sinister, lol....

                      Two years ago the Bunny Coffin was a 3'6" Classic. It was very much a prep and great warm up for the Derby. We did them both as did countless other Derby horses.
                      Last year we didn't show at all...heck...I was pregnant...I barely went to watch....horse sat at home.
                      This year our horse has a brand new trainer, hasn't been back to work for long, and hasn't set foot in a show ring in nearly two years. I should also mention that this horse is only shown occasionally even in the best circumstances...(2008 he did five shows but I bet all the other years put together aren't much more than that all totalled!)
                      SO, yes, my oversight, I did not notice they had lowered the height on the Bunny Coffin until we went to enter it...we still thought it was more in the vein of a "derby welcome" sort of thing as it was two years ago.

                      Entering one regular class was not allowed and we did try to work out an open but that also did not go according to plan(long story...doesn't matter).

                      So, yes, the Bunny Coffin was our re-introduction to the show ring (and we weren't the only derby horse in there) so that our new trainer could ride our recently back to work, very rusty horse and get to know him over a derby course at a show environment. And before anyone burns me at the stake for showing in the lower class (lol), he was a super good boy but he did make mistakes so there ya go!! ;-)

                      I think that USHJA SHOULD have cross entry restrictions on these two for the future. In this case the show was not allowed to make that call as the USHJA does not allow restrictions at all. I will be writing a letter in favor of future restrictions....but for this show we had a plan based on past experience and what was in the prizelist and rulebooks.
                      I would also like to see a "derby welcome" type class for the derby horses. Just like the GP horses have a "welcome jumper" type thing.

                      Hindsight is always perfect...we did the best we could based the info we had as we went. It's just nice to see my horse back in the ring doing what he loves to do!
                      Last edited by crestline; Aug. 14, 2010, 12:56 AM. Reason: clarity, lol...and the details was too long and boring and really didn't matter...
                      Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
                      Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio


                      • #12
                        Congratulations on the big win last night!


                        • #13
                          Saw Palladio go yesterday- wowser what a jump! Gives you the chills. It was kind of a bloodbath for the rest of the field, but he was brilliant. Just love him.


                          • #14
                            A Welcome class sure would have helped quite a few with the wine barrel jump. I liked the stirrup cup part of the Handy round.


                            • Original Poster

                              Thanks everyone! We're thrilled.
                              I had been worried that after such a long break from showing and only a couple months with Travis that they wouldn't be quite ready for this...apparently I was wrong. I'm really glad that they got the kinks ironed out early in the week!

                              Travis did a super job and I'm so proud of them both.

                              I see that Tbird does offer a "derby warmup" class for the derby horses on Thursday. Nice idea...

                              Wish us luck...of course we have to head up there...

                              Someone got this picture of Palladio over the last oxer....wowza!

                              Great Derby Picture!
                              Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
                              Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by wanderlust View Post
                                Saw Palladio go yesterday- wowser what a jump! Gives you the chills. It was kind of a bloodbath for the rest of the field, but he was brilliant. Just love him.
                                Watched him go two years ago in the Derby, definite chills! Wish I could have seen him this year! Congrats Crestline!