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The “shamateur”

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  • Pintopony175
    started a topic The “shamateur”

    The “shamateur”

    So I’ve recently moved to a new barn where I’ve noticed some shamateur activity... one of the amateurs who shows in the adult hunters (on sale horses) teaches lessons on occasion, rides all the training ride horses, and gets paid as “barn help”. Personally, as an amateur, I can’t stand when people bend the rules of being an amateur.
    I’d love to get paid to ride extras or teach to help cover the cost of my horse... But I want to keep my amateur status so I follow all the rules!

    I can’t believe how many people at the barn seem to turn a blind eye to this? Or maybe they don’t know the rules?

    In the past I’ve been aware of the amateur who borders on the edge... maybe she occasionally rides extras and is also a groom so she gets paid without “getting paid to ride” but also owns or leases her own horse. But teaching lessons?!?! This girl doesn’t show a ton, doesn’t own her own horse, so I don’t understand why she doesn’t just turn pro if she wants to make money riding/teaching?? She’ll likely never get turned in since she doesn’t show a ton (but when she does it’s in the adults) ... should I just turn a blind eye like everyone else??

    I don’t want to stir the pot or start drama especially since I’m very new... but this drives me crazy!

  • Backstage
    replied
    Originally posted by Mac123 View Post

    I don't think it's as uncommon as you think. A few years back I helped at shows all the time (as in get there at 5, leave at 8) doing whatever needed to be done, because I was single and had nothing better to do and I liked doing it. I rode with the trailer and helped set up, I longed and tacked horses up for the trainer, helped get kids down to the ring, rode home to unload horses and unpack...whatever was needed. I wasn't ever paid, and the trainer and clients appreciated having an extra set of experienced hands. I would have understood if people questioned it, but I wasn't breaking the rules and thoroughly enjoyed being involved.

    I'm not saying that the person in question is or isn't being paid, but until you've seen true evidence of payment the reality is you just don't really know.
    While I appreciate your point, IME there is a pretty noticeable difference between the way an employee in directed and works, versus the way a helper/extra set of hand is directed and helps. I doubt the OP - who is in barn on a regular basis - would miss the distinction the way that someone who might be observing interactions for a shorter period of time might. Even without seeing payment, there are plenty of ways for the OP to know that this is not a amateur compliant relationship, including in barn comments made by both the trainer and the shamateur.

    Leave a comment:


  • DMK
    replied
    I think it is somewhere in the middle. I agree that 10+ years ago it happened and maybe really more like 20+ years ago it was more common that ammies (and juniors) pitched in. Let's face it, 20 years ago this sport was sitting on the edge of the big money machine it is today, and a lot of trainers were still making money on lessons, not showing and sales.

    But now, probably partly due to the big money/higher stakes nature of the sport, in the barns that regularly show, I suspect ammies are more careful because the ammy rule has received a lot of attention, clarification and enforcement over the last few years.

    Leave a comment:


  • goodmorning
    replied
    Report the person, turn the other way, ignorance is bliss, or the cop out "well you are jealous" - likely comments by offenders themselves. It is pretty easy to prove with people's social media posts these days.

    Payment is compensation not just cash.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mac123
    replied
    Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post

    The OP has said that the person in question works as a groom. 1) I think it's a pretty rare situation where anyone works as a groom for free, and 2) if I worked as a groom for free for someone and also was seen riding their horses, I would 100% EXPECT an amateur rules inquiry to be initiated because that is such an obvious violation on the surface. Reality is that many amateurs would be extremely careful to engage in such a practice because they know it looks bad and they would not want people to even have the perception of possible rule breaking.
    I don't think it's as uncommon as you think. A few years back I helped at shows all the time (as in get there at 5, leave at 8) doing whatever needed to be done, because I was single and had nothing better to do and I liked doing it. I rode with the trailer and helped set up, I longed and tacked horses up for the trainer, helped get kids down to the ring, rode home to unload horses and unpack...whatever was needed. I wasn't ever paid, and the trainer and clients appreciated having an extra set of experienced hands. I would have understood if people questioned it, but I wasn't breaking the rules and thoroughly enjoyed being involved.

    I'm not saying that the person in question is or isn't being paid, but until you've seen true evidence of payment the reality is you just don't really know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pintopony175
    replied
    Originally posted by findeight View Post

    Pretty much a fail on that. 7 pages in a week in response to somebody who sounds not new and quite experienced and knowledgeable in the few posts made on other topics. Certainly knowledgeable enough to understand options. You’d think anyway.
    New to this specific barn/area but in no way new to the sport.

    Like I said before I am just shocked this is happening so blatantly obvious in front of everyone.

    Ive appreciated the responses, in no way did I mean for this to blow up like this.
    Thanks for everyone who provided helpful insight.

    Leave a comment:


  • 2bayboys
    replied
    Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post

    Of course the point is the same. It was the snark in the original post that made me post that as I have seen it up teen times before. It is not a leap of logic. Go troll someone else.
    I went back and read the original post again and I just don't see the snark , jealousy, envy, etc that you and others are ascribing to the OP. I read a person who is following the rules and upset that somebody else is not.

    Also sounds like the OP has been given good advice on how to address the problem by filing a protest, or removing her horse from this program, or both.

    Leave a comment:


  • findeight
    replied
    Originally posted by Pintopony175 View Post
    .....
    ....I don’t want to stir the pot or start drama especially since I’m very new... but this drives me crazy!
    Pretty much a fail on that. 7 pages in a week in response to somebody who sounds not new and quite experienced and knowledgeable in the few posts made on other topics. Certainly knowledgeable enough to understand options. You’d think anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Denali6298
    replied
    Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post

    You’ve got to be kidding. How dare you compare sexual assault with a perceived violation of the amateur rule. You are one sick individual.
    MVP is essentially applying the broken window theory and relating it to safe sport.

    You are are way too worked up over this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • PonyPenny
    replied
    Originally posted by mvp View Post

    I don't think you can know the OP's motivations or future behaviors. But these assumptions are mean-spirited. If the amateur rule affords the OP some protection, then her feelings or possible behaviors are irrelevant.

    Make the rule under discussion now a law about reporting rape and reconsider what you might say about the person who called out the law-breaker.
    You’ve got to be kidding. How dare you compare sexual assault with a perceived violation of the amateur rule. You are one sick individual.

    Leave a comment:


  • staceymc
    replied
    Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post

    I do hope you weren't referring to my post, as I was not complaining at all. I truly believe if you are able to show at an elite level, then go for it. But then don't sandbag back down. Would you expect a person who can ride Grand Prix or 1.2m to show long stirrup? I would consider that sandbagging. As a national champion/reserve world champion/and multiple horse/rider of the year award winner in breed events, I would never dream of stepping down to novice amateur at those shows just because the rules say I can. Not sure why you and RedHorses would accuse me of complaining about talented people at the top of a sport when I am one of them.

    Please, by all means do go troll someone else.
    Down killer. I was simply trying to explain to Red Horses that you were not in fact up in arms over amateurs competing in open classes. Don't worry, next time I won't bother.

    Leave a comment:


  • mvp
    replied
    Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post

    The OP is jealous of the other rider getting opportunities that she does not get. If the OP was offered those same opportunities she would not be posting here.
    I don't think you can know the OP's motivations or future behaviors. But these assumptions are mean-spirited. If the amateur rule affords the OP some protection, then her feelings or possible behaviors are irrelevant.

    Make the rule under discussion now a law about reporting rape and reconsider what you might say about the person who called out the law-breaker.

    Leave a comment:


  • PonyPenny
    replied
    Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

    That’s a leap of logic and has zero to do with my post.

    If the complaints come from jealousy or actual desire for everyone to follow the rules my point is the same. File the complaint or quit complaining.
    Of course the point is the same. It was the snark in the original post that made me post that as I have seen it up teen times before. It is not a leap of logic. Go troll someone else.

    Leave a comment:


  • atl_hunter
    replied
    Originally posted by staceymc View Post

    That person wasn't complaining about Amateurs being able to compete in the GP classes as much as complaining about those with the talent to ride/win in those GP classes then also being able to complete in the A/O classes....
    I do hope you weren't referring to my post, as I was not complaining at all. I truly believe if you are able to show at an elite level, then go for it. But then don't sandbag back down. Would you expect a person who can ride Grand Prix or 1.2m to show long stirrup? I would consider that sandbagging. As a national champion/reserve world champion/and multiple horse/rider of the year award winner in breed events, I would never dream of stepping down to novice amateur at those shows just because the rules say I can. Not sure why you and RedHorses would accuse me of complaining about talented people at the top of a sport when I am one of them.

    Please, by all means do go troll someone else.

    Leave a comment:


  • BeeHoney
    replied
    Originally posted by Mac123 View Post
    IPEsq brings up a valid point. Are you SURE she's getting paid by the trainer or are you assuming she is since the trainer is charging for it? The trainer simply billing for the person's services (though perhaps unethical) isn't a violation of the amateur rules whatsoever if the person isn't getting paid.

    Honestly, I'd ride horses for free and be okay with the trainer charging for it (as long as everyone was aware it was me doing the riding) just for the chance at some saddle time. Under the rules, that's legal, as long as I'm unpaid and aren't receiving anything else for free (board, lessons, etc).

    If you've seen proof she's getting paid, that's a different story, but whether or not she's being paid is where the proof of illegality would lie.
    The OP has said that the person in question works as a groom. 1) I think it's a pretty rare situation where anyone works as a groom for free, and 2) if I worked as a groom for free for someone and also was seen riding their horses, I would 100% EXPECT an amateur rules inquiry to be initiated because that is such an obvious violation on the surface. Reality is that many amateurs would be extremely careful to engage in such a practice because they know it looks bad and they would not want people to even have the perception of possible rule breaking.

    Lastly, if the OP turns over what evidence she has to the USEF and this person is in fact NOT breaking the rules due to some aspect of the situation that is not immediately visible, there is no harm done. The USEF will investigate, clear the person, and everyone will move on. If the person is breaking the rules but it cannot be proven, an inquiry may educate this person and the experience may encourage him or her to abide by the rules going forward.

    Leave a comment:


  • staceymc
    replied
    Originally posted by RedHorses View Post

    Someone upthread was complaining about Amateurs competing in Grand Prix classes - . perhaps they were unaware that those are Open to anyone.
    That person wasn't complaining about Amateurs being able to compete in the GP classes as much as complaining about those with the talent to ride/win in those GP classes then also being able to complete in the A/O classes....

    Leave a comment:


  • RedHorses
    replied
    Originally posted by GoodTimes View Post

    I'm not really sure what you're getting at. There are shamateurs in Canada too. Open just means that anyone can show in the class/division. Amateur classes are restricted to amateurs. Junior classes are restricted to juniors. Most juniors and amateurs stick to their respective divisions to avoid showing against the real pros (ie Erynn Ballard, Ryan Roy, Darcy Hayes, etc.) who are limited to the open divisions like the Combineds and the pre-greens.
    Someone upthread was complaining about Amateurs competing in Grand Prix classes - . perhaps they were unaware that those are Open to anyone.

    Leave a comment:


  • Manni01
    replied
    Wow so the system supports even taking advantage of AAs who would like some more ride time but still want to keep their AA status... Nice.....

    Leave a comment:


  • Mac123
    replied
    IPEsq brings up a valid point. Are you SURE she's getting paid by the trainer or are you assuming she is since the trainer is charging for it? The trainer simply billing for the person's services (though perhaps unethical) isn't a violation of the amateur rules whatsoever if the person isn't getting paid.

    Honestly, I'd ride horses for free and be okay with the trainer charging for it (as long as everyone was aware it was me doing the riding) just for the chance at some saddle time. Under the rules, that's legal, as long as I'm unpaid and aren't receiving anything else for free (board, lessons, etc).

    If you've seen proof she's getting paid, that's a different story, but whether or not she's being paid is where the proof of illegality would lie.

    Leave a comment:


  • IPEsq
    replied
    Originally posted by Pintopony175 View Post

    I have proof that the client is getting charged for the service... both the training rides and the lessons!
    When this person gets her pay check it might not necessarily state “you were paid xdollars for teaching” but she does indeed get paid to work at the barn and clients are being charged to receive lessons and training rides from someone claiming they are an amateur!
    You know for sure the barn pays her for some services?

    I was kind of in this situation... I was getting back into riding after a long time off and got some free saddle time from a local trainer who couldn't get her personal projects ridden. I was taught to be useful at the barn, so I swept aisles and cleaned tack, wrap for those who didn't know how to wrap, and helped catch the uncatchable ones and offered to clip ones no one else could get clipped. Occasionally I was asked to tune up the equitation kids when trainer was out of town or longe or hack a client horse when trainer was hurt or assistant was unavailable.

    I didn't get paid for any of it. Any of the extra skills I offered were out of being thankful for some free horse time, and the more skilled and useful I proved myself to be, the more opportunities I got for horse time to the point I had to turn some down because I still had my actual job to go to.

    I found out later that the one trainer may have charged the clients for some of those lessons or exercise rides/longe work. Whether it was written on the bill as such, I'm not sure. I think it just got counted as one of the package contacts. Again, I didn't get paid for it. Was that right? No, but that's an issue between trainer and those clients (and may have been gossip, I dunno). In any event, the trainer making money off me, if it did happen, didn't mean I was offering any training services for remuneration.

    If you are confident in the facts of your situation, then by all means, report the person at their next show if you want. I'm not really sure why you need COTH to validate your decision.

    Leave a comment:

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