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The “shamateur”

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  • Originally posted by Pintopony175 View Post

    I have proof that the client is getting charged for the service... both the training rides and the lessons!
    When this person gets her pay check it might not necessarily state “you were paid xdollars for teaching” but she does indeed get paid to work at the barn and clients are being charged to receive lessons and training rides from someone claiming they are an amateur!
    Well,under American rules she is violating the rules.

    Even if she is not seeing a penny of the lesson fees, she is already on the barn's payroll and she cannot be on the barn's payroll as a groom *and* ride horses belonging to the barn.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Pintopony175 View Post

      However this person isn’t riding extras and doing everyone a favor - WE are being charged for these rides!
      Same with the lessons - the client is charged!

      She can ride all the extras she wants in my mind but when I or other clients are being charged for rides or lessons given by an amateur it’s just seems like so much more than someone being given a good opportunity.
      You mean you have been charged and you have been forking it over? Why are you financially supporting this? If this is real ( and not yet another troll posing as a new poster with dramatic issues known to stir the pot) and you are the Adult, horse owning, bill paying client? This is on you to stop by getting your horse out of there, the details in this latest post show you are the one in control and can stop this by not playing. So do it and stop complaining about a situation you are aware of and financially supporting.
      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mac123 View Post
        OnDeck I admire your effort to provide an outside-the-horse-world example, but it's not an apples-to-apples example. First of all, borrowing skates is a simple need-based action. Yes, sometimes people simply need to borrow a horse to compete, but amateur rules were designed to protect against the people who aren't just borrowing a horse but are actively training and teaching professionally while competing as an amateur.

        The problem with the current rules is that it doesn't allow a true amateur to work off some costs and truly borrow a horse to compete, but the rule was created to protect true amateurs from those posing as amateurs.

        Secondly, borrowing skates doesn't require skill. Again, aside from the true amateur borrowing a horse, there is an inherent skill assigned to someone who is schooling horses (especially when those rides are billed as pro rides, as in the OP's case) and teaching lessons. The current rules are designed to protect true amateurs from having to compete against those who are really skilled enough to engage in professional activities. The rules of course overlook the amateur who truly isn't a professional but is skilled enough to make a few bucks on the weekends hacking horses.

        Yes, the rules have blatant holes, but they weren't designed to address the problem of someone trying to borrow a horse.

        As to why we should follow unfair rules - it's simple - because every single rule is perceived as unfair by someone. If it's okay to simply ignore the ones you think are unfair, then, again, let's just throw out the rulebook.

        Personally, I think the amateur rules are poorly thought out and the pro/am distinction is meaningless. I ride one horse a day and could compete against a fellow amateur who rides 10. Our skill levels don't match even if our sources of income are the same. I would much rather see a skill-based system like that in Europe or in the many other disciplines that abide by a simple skill-based system.

        However, the current rules are the rules. As Highflyer said, let's work to change the rules rather than advocating for openly disregarding them.
        Ok reading this my two cents....
        I agree that the rules are how they are and if you show you agree to obey the rules!!

        I do not think that it is possible to change them.. whoever proposed that is wrong. I would like a real example where something similar to this was changed ... This organisation is run by a few influencial people and they do how they like...

        I think it’s an interesting though to say somebody who has skills to ride other people’s horses and to give lessons is not a “true” amateur... that’s what I don’t like about the system... it starts its own activity and people start to interpret things in their own way... there was an interesting thread in the dressage forum where “true” amateurs tried to shame a professional who legally entered a dressage class in Wellington. The pro was right, the “true” amateurs just didn’t like it...
        also why needs an AA to be worse then a professional??? Maybe pros like that, but that’s an ridiculous assumption... Some of the best dressage riders in the world are “true” AAs... Soenke Rothenberger, Alice Tarjan, are just two which are in my head right now...

        I think this system is horrible because it encourages people to be nasty toward other people simply in order to protect the playgrounds of some rich people...
        https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
        https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by findeight View Post

          You mean you have been charged and you have been forking it over? Why are you financially supporting this? If this is real ( and not yet another troll posing as a new poster with dramatic issues known to stir the pot) and you are the Adult, horse owning, bill paying client? This is on you to stop by getting your horse out of there, the details in this latest post show you are the one in control and can stop this by not playing. So do it and stop complaining about a situation you are aware of and financially supporting.
          I also know of situation where an owner paid for training rides at a show and an amateur was the one who took the horse around. In this case, the amateur did not get paid as I warned her of the rules (although said trainer did offer to pay her under the table and ammy almost did it as "who would ever know?"). The owner of the horse didn't know that their horse did not get a professional training ride that day. Let's not assume people who are sharing real-world situations here are all trying to stir the pot. The reality is that a lot of us pay for things we don't receive, but if we aren't there to see that how do we know? No rule was broken here so there is no need to report it, and I was not personally financially supporting it so it's not my complaint to make. I didn't see it happen, rather, I heard the ammy bragging about how she did the schooling trips that day. I asked her if she would feel comfortable telling the owner this knowing said owner paid for a service and she quickly responded "no."

          She did not take payment for her work that day since she did ride and train. She was my friend and I warned her that someone would probably turn her in if she did as it's against the rule and is not ethical. She was 19 so it made sense to educate her on the rules since she truly did not know them.

          To your point about "not playing," my horse is no longer in this training program. You are correct in that the person who can stop this is the person who has been duped by the trainer. Stopping payment, challenging the bill and leaving for a different program often send big messages about what you are willing to tolerate.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NoSuchPerson View Post

            Wow! This discussion sure blew up while I was gone.

            My point of view:

            1. Person gets paid as barn help (and let's leave off the judgy quotes). Not a violation.

            2. Person rides training ride horses. So what? OP says person doesn't own her own horse. An explanation equally plausible to the OP's assumption that she's getting paid is that the trainer likes this person, thinks she has talent, and wants to give this poor person who can't even afford to buy a horse some free saddle time. Not a violation.

            3. Teaches lessons on occasion. Admittedly a finer line to walk. But, Person could just be stepping in from time to time to help out. "Person, I'm stuck with Dobbin down here with the vet, could you please go get my up-downers started?" Not a violation, as long as Person isn't being paid.

            4. Person doesn't show much.

            I stick with my initial assessment. OP should just mind her own business. And I do think the OP is being petty. The OP's description of this person who so offends her gives me the impression that this person is an older iteration of a barn rat - someone who can't afford to own or lease a horse, who can't afford to show much, and is working as barn help and picking up as many opportunities to ride for free as she can. I don't really see this person as a shamateur or as any kind of show ring threat to anybody.
            If she's employed by the trainer of horses she hacks, she is considered pro if she rides them. If she's truly an ammy, and is riding horses whose owners are paying for those rides, the trainer is charging those owners fraudulently. I sometimes hacked horses for my trainers but since I wasn't employed by those trainers, no foul. Regardless of ability, the rule states that being paid for riding or teaching make you a pro.

            Similarly, if she's paid to do anything by the trainer, the last thing she should be doing is teaching anyone IF she has an ammy status.

            Years ago I was doing my weekly lesson on a client owned horse. I also hacked said horse one or two other days a week. BO/trainer was looking for someone to feed and turn out and muck 1/2 the barn one day a week, Had I accepted the position, I'd have been a once a week lesson student and a pro. Was I an ammy in spirit? Of course, but under the rules I wouldn't have been.



            F O.B
            Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
            Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Pintopony175 View Post

              I have proof that the client is getting charged for the service... both the training rides and the lessons!
              When this person gets her pay check it might not necessarily state “you were paid xdollars for teaching” but she does indeed get paid to work at the barn and clients are being charged to receive lessons and training rides from someone claiming they are an amateur!
              Do you have proof she gets paid by the barn? Have you seen her check or pay stub? Clients getting charged for training rides has nothing to do with her amateur status. Every amateur I know has hacked horses for a trainer at one time or another. Sometimes I prefer an amateur to hack my horse as he does not need training rides often. He is a been there, down that horse. I have him in a program so he gets out regularly and for lessons for me. Another question is the barn owned by the trainer? If the trainer is a separate entity from the barn, then working for the barn would have no basis concerning amateur status. In California is is extremely rare for a trainer to own the barn. Some barns can have five plus trainers as concessionaires at the barn. There is no relationship between the barn and trainer other than the trainer uses/rents the space. Not everything is black or white or nefarious. She may well be cheating, or she may not be.

              Comment


              • Well, if OP really thinks she’s openly cheating yet continues paying the bill for it? Don’t know what we are supposed to advise her to do other then quit paying for it.
                When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                Comment


                • I am confused by a leap made by some of the posters who insist that a person complaining is just jealous and how dare a jealous person make it hard for a poor ammy to get ride time....

                  No where does the OP say that this person is riding these horses and such because of some financial issue that does not allow them to ride any other way.
                  I know it is hard for those who own a horse and want to own a horse to believe, but there are people who like riding lots of horses and not having to own a horse to do it. Not because they can't afford a horse or do not want to afford a horse, but simply because they prefer riding lots of random horses and even better, riding lots of random horses and getting money for it.

                  I do not know if the person the OP is talking about fits into this category or in the category of people who can not afford to ride.... but if we are going to imagine a reason we should probably include that one too.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post

                    The OP is jealous of the other rider getting opportunities that she does not get. If the OP was offered those same opportunities she would not be posting here.
                    That’s a leap of logic and has zero to do with my post.

                    If the complaints come from jealousy or actual desire for everyone to follow the rules my point is the same. File the complaint or quit complaining.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DarkBayUnicorn View Post

                      Like, what if they mucked stalls for money at Barn A in the morning and rode a horse at Barn B for free in the afternoon? Is that OK? What if they work all day at Barn A NOT RIDING OR TEACHING, then flat a horse at night on their own time?

                      Is the 18-year-old who helps the riding school kids tack up after school a pro? Technically, they're teaching...horsemanship.
                      Barn A and Barn B is okay. Barn A and Barn A is not. It is not okay because people were being paid to be bookkeepers, while training ten horses a day then showing in the amateur divisions.

                      Helping tack up horses is not teaching riding.
                      *****
                      You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                      Comment


                      • I feel like a number of people posting on this thread do not have a clear understanding of what the amateur rules state. Please, everyone, go back and read the rules--GR1306. If a person is paid as a groom by a trainer, they cannot ride any horses under that trainer's care, whether it is "on their own time" or not. It doesn't matter whether the trainer charges the client for the ride or not.

                        As far as I'm aware, you do not need any $$ to pass along the information you have to dispute someone's amateur status. Email the USEF at amateurinquiry@usef.org for clarification on this matter.

                        I also want to point out that the system is not nearly as cruel as everyone is making out. ALL amateurs have the opportunity to offer to ride for free at any barn they do not work at. Or alternatively, anyone is free to just go pro and show in the pro divisions. There are plenty of divisions for pros. So let's not be overly dramatic here.

                        Comment


                        • I think we've determined that the rules themselves are outdated. It seems pretty backwards when someone like Adrienne Sternlicht can show at WEG as an ammy but I can't show in the low adult jumpers and teach some up downers or hack some sale horses to offset board costs.
                          Fils Du Reverdy (Revy)- 1993 Selle Francais Gelding
                          My equine soulmate
                          Mischief Managed (Tully)- JC Priceless Jewel 2002 TB Gelding

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Pintopony175 View Post

                            I have proof that the client is getting charged for the service... both the training rides and the lessons!
                            When this person gets her pay check it might not necessarily state “you were paid xdollars for teaching” but she does indeed get paid to work at the barn and clients are being charged to receive lessons and training rides from someone claiming they are an amateur!
                            You know for sure the barn pays her for some services?

                            I was kind of in this situation... I was getting back into riding after a long time off and got some free saddle time from a local trainer who couldn't get her personal projects ridden. I was taught to be useful at the barn, so I swept aisles and cleaned tack, wrap for those who didn't know how to wrap, and helped catch the uncatchable ones and offered to clip ones no one else could get clipped. Occasionally I was asked to tune up the equitation kids when trainer was out of town or longe or hack a client horse when trainer was hurt or assistant was unavailable.

                            I didn't get paid for any of it. Any of the extra skills I offered were out of being thankful for some free horse time, and the more skilled and useful I proved myself to be, the more opportunities I got for horse time to the point I had to turn some down because I still had my actual job to go to.

                            I found out later that the one trainer may have charged the clients for some of those lessons or exercise rides/longe work. Whether it was written on the bill as such, I'm not sure. I think it just got counted as one of the package contacts. Again, I didn't get paid for it. Was that right? No, but that's an issue between trainer and those clients (and may have been gossip, I dunno). In any event, the trainer making money off me, if it did happen, didn't mean I was offering any training services for remuneration.

                            If you are confident in the facts of your situation, then by all means, report the person at their next show if you want. I'm not really sure why you need COTH to validate your decision.

                            Comment


                            • IPEsq brings up a valid point. Are you SURE she's getting paid by the trainer or are you assuming she is since the trainer is charging for it? The trainer simply billing for the person's services (though perhaps unethical) isn't a violation of the amateur rules whatsoever if the person isn't getting paid.

                              Honestly, I'd ride horses for free and be okay with the trainer charging for it (as long as everyone was aware it was me doing the riding) just for the chance at some saddle time. Under the rules, that's legal, as long as I'm unpaid and aren't receiving anything else for free (board, lessons, etc).

                              If you've seen proof she's getting paid, that's a different story, but whether or not she's being paid is where the proof of illegality would lie.
                              Jennifer Baas
                              It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

                              Comment


                              • Wow so the system supports even taking advantage of AAs who would like some more ride time but still want to keep their AA status... Nice.....
                                https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
                                https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by GoodTimes View Post

                                  I'm not really sure what you're getting at. There are shamateurs in Canada too. Open just means that anyone can show in the class/division. Amateur classes are restricted to amateurs. Junior classes are restricted to juniors. Most juniors and amateurs stick to their respective divisions to avoid showing against the real pros (ie Erynn Ballard, Ryan Roy, Darcy Hayes, etc.) who are limited to the open divisions like the Combineds and the pre-greens.
                                  Someone upthread was complaining about Amateurs competing in Grand Prix classes - . perhaps they were unaware that those are Open to anyone.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by RedHorses View Post

                                    Someone upthread was complaining about Amateurs competing in Grand Prix classes - . perhaps they were unaware that those are Open to anyone.
                                    That person wasn't complaining about Amateurs being able to compete in the GP classes as much as complaining about those with the talent to ride/win in those GP classes then also being able to complete in the A/O classes....

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Mac123 View Post
                                      IPEsq brings up a valid point. Are you SURE she's getting paid by the trainer or are you assuming she is since the trainer is charging for it? The trainer simply billing for the person's services (though perhaps unethical) isn't a violation of the amateur rules whatsoever if the person isn't getting paid.

                                      Honestly, I'd ride horses for free and be okay with the trainer charging for it (as long as everyone was aware it was me doing the riding) just for the chance at some saddle time. Under the rules, that's legal, as long as I'm unpaid and aren't receiving anything else for free (board, lessons, etc).

                                      If you've seen proof she's getting paid, that's a different story, but whether or not she's being paid is where the proof of illegality would lie.
                                      The OP has said that the person in question works as a groom. 1) I think it's a pretty rare situation where anyone works as a groom for free, and 2) if I worked as a groom for free for someone and also was seen riding their horses, I would 100% EXPECT an amateur rules inquiry to be initiated because that is such an obvious violation on the surface. Reality is that many amateurs would be extremely careful to engage in such a practice because they know it looks bad and they would not want people to even have the perception of possible rule breaking.

                                      Lastly, if the OP turns over what evidence she has to the USEF and this person is in fact NOT breaking the rules due to some aspect of the situation that is not immediately visible, there is no harm done. The USEF will investigate, clear the person, and everyone will move on. If the person is breaking the rules but it cannot be proven, an inquiry may educate this person and the experience may encourage him or her to abide by the rules going forward.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by staceymc View Post

                                        That person wasn't complaining about Amateurs being able to compete in the GP classes as much as complaining about those with the talent to ride/win in those GP classes then also being able to complete in the A/O classes....
                                        I do hope you weren't referring to my post, as I was not complaining at all. I truly believe if you are able to show at an elite level, then go for it. But then don't sandbag back down. Would you expect a person who can ride Grand Prix or 1.2m to show long stirrup? I would consider that sandbagging. As a national champion/reserve world champion/and multiple horse/rider of the year award winner in breed events, I would never dream of stepping down to novice amateur at those shows just because the rules say I can. Not sure why you and RedHorses would accuse me of complaining about talented people at the top of a sport when I am one of them.

                                        Please, by all means do go troll someone else.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                                          That’s a leap of logic and has zero to do with my post.

                                          If the complaints come from jealousy or actual desire for everyone to follow the rules my point is the same. File the complaint or quit complaining.
                                          Of course the point is the same. It was the snark in the original post that made me post that as I have seen it up teen times before. It is not a leap of logic. Go troll someone else.

                                          Comment

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