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The “shamateur”

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  • #81
    Originally posted by mvp View Post

    With all due respect to you, to Shakespeare and Faulkner, the fact that the amateur/pro distinction is a muddled one, or one not well-defended is *not the same* as saying that it "signfifies nothing,*. Nor is it worth nothing to try to create some division among the wide swath of competitors so that like competes against like.

    Again, failing to do something well does not mean it the mission was flawed.

    And so it's worth following the ammy/pro rule until it's changed. Cheating when it suits someone or looking the other way does nothing to help create the pressure to produce something better.
    I don't think you read that sentence or the rest of the paragraph as it was intended since it appears you made an argument against exactly that point. I said it signified nothing about your talent level.

    And it does not. You can be an ammy following all the rules and be perfectly capable of cleaning a good pro's cloc. Or you can be a crappy ass pro rider. Your USEF card designation has nothing to do with your riding capabilities. Nevertheless I was quite clear that while it is a distinction net of riding capabilities, it is still the rule and must be followed:

    That said, it IS a rule and as a competitor, you (the generic you who breaks the rule, not the OP ) owe it to all your fellow competitors to respect the letter if not the spirit of the rule. And I don't really care if you are not a threat to your fellow competitors' chances at acetate ribbon glory, it says something of the measure of your character if you know the rule and choose to break it anyway. If you do that, I figure there are any number of things you may deem not applicable to you and decide not to follow.
    So... am I missing something?

    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

    Comment


    • #82
      I truly don’t understand why these threads routinely come up in this manner. OP either report the person or don’t. There really is no reason to start a thread every time some one is suspected of being a shamatuer.

      Further more, if people aren’t reported not much is going to change. All this hand ringing and pearl clutching does nothing.

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by DarkBayUnicorn View Post
        Even if the person in question is on the payroll, all that is required to create a loophole is for them to be paid hourly, and to clock out, ride a few horses/teach a few lessons, and clock back in again for evening chores. They're technically not being paid for the hours in which they conduct the verboten activity.
        This is absolutely not the case in the U.S. That does not "create a loophole" in any way shape or form.

        Comment


        • #84
          Originally posted by eclipse View Post

          Yes, but as I stated previously, we do have one huge rule difference between Canada and the USA ,an amature in Canada, May teach within the confines of the EC NCCP teaching certification and they may also teach the disabled “ both for remuneration. Plus once you are shortlisted to a national team you are no longer an amateur for that year or if you’ve ridden on one, you cannot regain your amateur status for a period of 2 years! The only sameness to USEF is, we as an amateur cannot ride or train other horses for renumeration and we cannot be trainers above that states level....then and only then would be a “shamateur”! So in Canada, someone teaching may not be breaking their status!
          Yes I'm well aware of the rule difference. I bolded part of your quote because this "sameness" is essentially what the thread is about. It doesn't matter if you're in Canada or the US, you can not get paid to ride or train. Period. In Canada we can get paid to teach up downers if you're a certified instructor.

          Like DarkBayUnicorn I've jumped in to help others when a trainer wasn't available. However, I'm even more careful at a show. I might set jumps but I keep my mouth shut.
          I used to work as a groom and thus lunged horses and hacked some, I wasn't showing at the time and I stayed out of the amateur divisions for just over 5 years after that.

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by DarkBayUnicorn View Post
            Even if the person in question is on the payroll, all that is required to create a loophole is for them to be paid hourly, and to clock out, ride a few horses/teach a few lessons, and clock back in again for evening chores. They're technically not being paid for the hours in which they conduct the verboten activity.

            Mmmm....No, that's not true whatsoever. You are a professional if you ride/teach AND receive remuneration. And PS, remuneration is defined as cash or the trade of services in kind. So free lessons or board offered in exchange for rides = remuneration = professional.

            Please read paragraph 4 of GR1306 to see what constitutes professional activity.
            https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/nT3T...rticipants-and

            Clocking in and clocking out has absolutely nothing to do with it.

            Jennifer Baas
            It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post
              I truly don’t understand why these threads routinely come up in this manner. OP either report the person or don’t. There really is no reason to start a thread every time some one is suspected of being a shamatuer.

              Further more, if people aren’t reported not much is going to change. All this hand ringing and pearl clutching does nothing.
              The OP is jealous of the other rider getting opportunities that she does not get. If the OP was offered those same opportunities she would not be posting here.

              Comment


              • #87
                I don't know-rules are rules and yet when has there ever been fairness and consistency in the horse world? One person is not liked and yet has done nothing wrong and is bullied and treated terribly at shows while the same people fawn over a person with a criminal record a mile long and victims laying in it's wake. If it bothers you and you are truly seeing it from an objective and fair and TRUE perspective of what it is then report it- but you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences- I'm not saying that is right or wrong- but if this is a torch you feel needs carrying- by all means do what you feel is right just think it through and the outcomes that you will face.
                "All life is precious"
                Sophie Scholl

                Comment


                • #88
                  Let's just take the amateur rule out of context. I'm not sure if this will make sense to anyone but me but here we go:

                  Let's say you want to play ice hockey. It costs $2,000 to be allowed on the ice, so you pay that and walk on. Everyone needs to bring their own pair of skates which cost around $50k.

                  - Player #1 can't afford to buy her own skates so she borrowed a skates from the ice rink at a price of $1000 for the day. But, since she doesn't own that pair of skates she can't play here (the AOs), she has to play a lower level game (AAs). So she borrows her skates and moves along.
                  - Player #2 worked at the concession stand (picking stalls/grooming/etc) for the past few weeks to save up for the $2000. It's an extra job she enjoys and allows her to watch hockey while she works. But, this makes her ineligible to borrow skates. However, she is allowed to borrow skates from a different ice rink and play in the lower level game. So she calls from friends, finds a pair no one is using, arranges to get them delivered, and moves along to her lower level game.
                  - Player #3 also paid her $2000 fee from the money she earned working at the concession stand. She also isn't allowed to borrow skates but she doesn't know any other places to borrow from. So, her option is to borrow skates and play in a very upper level game on Thursday morning. So she borrows her skates, takes a vacation day, and goes to play with the pros because she enjoys it. But, after a while, not being able to play the game with her peers gets old so Player #3 eventually stops competitively playing hockey.
                  - Player #4 borrows a pair of skates from the rink twice a week to practice. She also works at the concession stand. Player #4 is now a professional hockey player and must show in the upper level games on Thursday as well.
                  - Player #5 paid the $2000 to play and the $50k for her skates from her money from her office job. She has multiple pairs of skates and also borrows skates multiple times a week. She has plenty of time to enjoy playing and watching hockey. She is free to play in whichever game she chooses and doesn't understand why the other players don't just not work at the concession stand on the weekends.

                  Okay so I know this is a rough analogy but I hope it gets my point across. I know hockey skates don't require training. and I also know some of you aren't advocating for the rule but rather the spirit of rule following. Someone will quote this and post with a "'Yes, but" that will bring everyone back to the horse world.

                  But, I think when you take away the horse show scene and put this in other setting it becomes very very different. With the exception of the posters from other countries, we all grew up with this system and can become skewed by familiarity. I respect those of you that think rules should be followed just for the sake of a healthy sport. But is it really a healthy sport if it's supported by unfair rules? Would this hockey game be more or less healthy if all of these players got to play together?

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Working to change the rules is fine. Cheating because you feel they are unfair is not.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by Mac123 View Post

                      "So what?" So what is that it is against the rules.

                      You're potentially right. In my mind, I was separating this into two unrelated pieces:

                      1. Trainer is getting paid to train horses.
                      2. Person who works at barn is riding horses that she doesn't own or lease.

                      But, if Person is being paid by trainer to do barn work AND is riding horses that trainer is being paid to train, then it is a violation of the rules.

                      The reason I said "potentially right," instead of "right" is that I have an additional question for people who know the rules better than I do.

                      What if the barn owner and the trainer in question are two separate, unrelated people and two separate businesses? If BO pays Person to do barn work and trainer invites Person to ride horses she has in training with no money changing hands, is that still a violation?


                      "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                      that's even remotely true."

                      Homer Simpson

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by Highflyer View Post
                        Working to change the rules is fine. Cheating because you feel they are unfair is not.
                        I strongly endorse this sentiment. The rules may not be perfect, but breaking them is cheating.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by Highflyer View Post
                          Working to change the rules is fine. Cheating because you feel they are unfair is not.
                          Like I said, I agree with that. Rules are rules and it's inherently immoral to break them. The person the OP references is absolutely in violation with the amateur rules and can be reported and disciplined by the USEF. That's a definite (assuming the OP is giving us facts). However... just by human nature, if rules do not create fair play, they are less likely to be respected and followed. We would have many less problems of this nature if we had fair rules (or, of course, if USEF started throwing rule breakers in jail )

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #93
                            Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post

                            Do you have proof that she is being paid, or do you assume? This is the key to your violation protest with USEF.
                            I have proof that the client is getting charged for the service... both the training rides and the lessons!
                            When this person gets her pay check it might not necessarily state “you were paid xdollars for teaching” but she does indeed get paid to work at the barn and clients are being charged to receive lessons and training rides from someone claiming they are an amateur!

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Originally posted by OnDeck View Post

                              But, I think when you take away the horse show scene and put this in other setting it becomes very very different. With the exception of the posters from other countries, we all grew up with this system and can become skewed by familiarity. I respect those of you that think rules should be followed just for the sake of a healthy sport. But is it really a healthy sport if it's supported by unfair rules? Would this hockey game be more or less healthy if all of these players got to play together?
                              There are definitely some arguments for removing the pro/amateur distinction. Some of those arguments have been made repeatedly on these threads. But regardless of your thoughts on the rationale of the rule, why is ok for some competitors to break the rules while others respect them, to their detriment?

                              While no one is ever going to pay me to ride, I have had people ask me about teaching lower level lessons. I don't - while the occasional extra $50 would be welcome (and wouldn't make me magically ride better!), it isn't permitted if I want to remain an amateur, so I don't. Meanwhile, there are lots of shamateurs who not only teach for remuneration, but ride for remuneration. They are getting the benefit of the money PLUS improving with extra rides .

                              Everyone is free to advocate for different rules, but the expectation should be that the rules that exist are respected.

                              Edited to Add (since On Deck clarified her thoughts while I was posting): The problem is that someone will always think some rule is unfair. Unless the entire amateur/pro distinction is removed, there will always be someone thinking they are deserving of a "self-exception".

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                OnDeck I admire your effort to provide an outside-the-horse-world example, but it's not an apples-to-apples example. First of all, borrowing skates is a simple need-based action. Yes, sometimes people simply need to borrow a horse to compete, but amateur rules were designed to protect against the people who aren't just borrowing a horse but are actively training and teaching professionally while competing as an amateur.

                                The problem with the current rules is that it doesn't allow a true amateur to work off some costs and truly borrow a horse to compete, but the rule was created to protect true amateurs from those posing as amateurs.

                                Secondly, borrowing skates doesn't require skill. Again, aside from the true amateur borrowing a horse, there is an inherent skill assigned to someone who is schooling horses (especially when those rides are billed as pro rides, as in the OP's case) and teaching lessons. The current rules are designed to protect true amateurs from having to compete against those who are really skilled enough to engage in professional activities. The rules of course overlook the amateur who truly isn't a professional but is skilled enough to make a few bucks on the weekends hacking horses.

                                Yes, the rules have blatant holes, but they weren't designed to address the problem of someone trying to borrow a horse.

                                As to why we should follow unfair rules - it's simple - because every single rule is perceived as unfair by someone. If it's okay to simply ignore the ones you think are unfair, then, again, let's just throw out the rulebook.

                                Personally, I think the amateur rules are poorly thought out and the pro/am distinction is meaningless. I ride one horse a day and could compete against a fellow amateur who rides 10. Our skill levels don't match even if our sources of income are the same. I would much rather see a skill-based system like that in Europe or in the many other disciplines that abide by a simple skill-based system.

                                However, the current rules are the rules. As Highflyer said, let's work to change the rules rather than advocating for openly disregarding them.
                                Jennifer Baas
                                It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by Highflyer View Post
                                  Working to change the rules is fine. Cheating because you feel they are unfair is not.
                                  Not just in horses, but in life in general, I think this is a dividing line. There are many people who believe that you must always follow the rules. There are an equal number of people who believe that the important thing is, to use the old cliche, following the spirit rather than the letter of the law.

                                  I admit that I am in the latter camp. I have a coworker who is an example of the former, and on this topic we have found no common ground.
                                  "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                                  that's even remotely true."

                                  Homer Simpson

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #97
                                    Originally posted by marginall View Post
                                    Why do people assume this is a trainer willfully committing subterfuge in the 3ft adult hunter division? Maybe it's just a trainer providing an opportunity to an amateur who doesn't have the means to own a horse or show.

                                    I know a few trainers and amateur owners who have provided opportunities to others which have broken rules and it actually restores my faith in our sport. If an owner covers the cost of someone's show fees allowing them a chance to participate or a trainer lets an amateur hack horses (which happens at pretty much every barn I've been to), then good on them for providing opportunities to others for saddle time. I get not paying for a training ride unless it's by a pro, but often an amateur hacking another's horse is a win-win. For some, getting their horse out for a light hack when they can't get to the barn themselves is worth a few bucks.

                                    Our sport is so cost prohibitive and elitist as it is, we don't need an internet posse calling for suspensions and punishment for people they don't even know. I think it's really sad, and quite frankly scary, that people are offering to report this trainer and amateur based on an anonymous board poster, without directly knowing any of the details or people involved.

                                    Working amateurs getting chances to ride and compete when they otherwise couldn't afford to on their own is leveling the playing field. Exclusivity at the lowest levels of our sport is what's ruining it, not the people at the top.
                                    However this person isn’t riding extras and doing everyone a favor - we are being charged for these rides!
                                    Same with the lessons - the client is charged!

                                    She can ride all the extras she wants in my mind but when I or other clients are being charged for rides or lessons given by an amateur it’s just seems like so much more than someone being given a good opportunity.

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by Mac123 View Post
                                      OnDeck

                                      Secondly, borrowing skates doesn't require skill. Again, aside from the true amateur borrowing a horse, there is an inherent skill assigned to someone who is schooling horses (especially when those rides are billed as pro rides, as in the OP's case) and teaching lessons. The current rules are designed to protect true amateurs from having to compete against those who are really skilled enough to engage in professional activities. The rules of course overlook the amateur who truly isn't a professional but is skilled enough to make a few bucks on the weekends hacking horses.
                                      I think this is the real issue. The rule protects true amateurs (which by definition means they have some type of financial backing) from showing against those that may engage in some type of professional activity, however limited. If this is extremely important to your perception to the fairness of the game, then I can understand some type of agreement with the amateur rules.

                                      Like I said, I'm not a proponent of cheating. It would be great if everyone could follow the rules exactly but I don't think it will fix much in the grand scheme of things. I do think rewriting the rules would be a much much more effective solution than expecting members to jump through some very confusing hoops and have individuals like the OP to report suspicious activity.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by Mac123 View Post


                                        Mmmm....No, that's not true whatsoever. You are a professional if you ride/teach AND receive remuneration. And PS, remuneration is defined as cash or the trade of services in kind. So free lessons or board offered in exchange for rides = remuneration = professional.

                                        Please read paragraph 4 of GR1306 to see what constitutes professional activity.
                                        https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/nT3T...rticipants-and

                                        Clocking in and clocking out has absolutely nothing to do with it.
                                        Sorry. It may be my Canadian-ness seeing that loophole. For that I aplogize.

                                        *remainder of post directed towards the G-You population and not one specific poster*

                                        But to me, someone who works PT mucking stalls in the morning and flats a horse in the afternoon for FREE (no money or compensation changing hands at ALL) since they're already there is not someone I'm gonna blow a whistle on for shamateurism. They are truthfully and technically not being compensated to ride or teach. They were compensated for the four hours they worked in the morning mucking stalls and turning out. Where they probably earned what, $60?

                                        Like, what if they mucked stalls for money at Barn A in the morning and rode a horse at Barn B for free in the afternoon? Is that OK? What if they work all day at Barn A NOT RIDING OR TEACHING, then flat a horse at night on their own time?

                                        Is the 18-year-old who helps the riding school kids tack up after school a pro? Technically, they're teaching...horsemanship.

                                        I don't know. I just don't get bent way out of shape over minor stuff like the above scenarios.

                                        I get that rules are rules, but do y'all argue with the cop who knocks your speeding ticket down a notch so you don't get points and insist he throw the book at you? No. You don't.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Highflyer View Post
                                          Working to change the rules is fine. Cheating because you feel they are unfair is not.
                                          #nailedit

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