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The “shamateur”

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  • #41
    While this definitely goes against the spirit and word of the law, I would never “manure” where my horse eats. This is textbook barn drama and I want no part of it.

    Comment


    • #42
      I find this kind of cheating to be dispiriting. And I am surprised by the number of posters saying it would be in poor taste to get someone in trouble for breaking the rules.

      That said, I do understand the reasons why people choose not to report those in their barn or social circles. It can be sort of difficult to rock the boat and risk your relationships. Even taking someone aside personally and reminding them of the rules can be awkward and socially risky. The number of posters recommending against reporting in some way reflect the depressing breadth of the sentiment that these rules aren't really that important to follow.

      Comment


      • #43
        I admit I only scanned this thread so possible I missed it bbbuuuuttttt is OP even 100% certain this other person is indeed claiming their status/ competing as an amateur????

        Comment


        • #44
          What is more important? Integrity of the sport, focus on the horses and being better horsemen, or not pissing off people? This is why this sport is in trouble and why more and more folks ARE showing unrecognized shows. The governing body, the members are unwilling to actually grow a set and hold folks accountable and make showing equitable.

          "I don't want any drama!" Willful ignorance creates the drama.

          Comment


          • #45
            Screen shots of social media pages that contain the damning information will satisfy USEF.

            Comment


            • #46
              Why do people assume this is a trainer willfully committing subterfuge in the 3ft adult hunter division? Maybe it's just a trainer providing an opportunity to an amateur who doesn't have the means to own a horse or show.

              I know a few trainers and amateur owners who have provided opportunities to others which have broken rules and it actually restores my faith in our sport. If an owner covers the cost of someone's show fees allowing them a chance to participate or a trainer lets an amateur hack horses (which happens at pretty much every barn I've been to), then good on them for providing opportunities to others for saddle time. I get not paying for a training ride unless it's by a pro, but often an amateur hacking another's horse is a win-win. For some, getting their horse out for a light hack when they can't get to the barn themselves is worth a few bucks.

              Our sport is so cost prohibitive and elitist as it is, we don't need an internet posse calling for suspensions and punishment for people they don't even know. I think it's really sad, and quite frankly scary, that people are offering to report this trainer and amateur based on an anonymous board poster, without directly knowing any of the details or people involved.

              Working amateurs getting chances to ride and compete when they otherwise couldn't afford to on their own is leveling the playing field. Exclusivity at the lowest levels of our sport is what's ruining it, not the people at the top.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by marginall View Post
                Why do people assume this is a trainer willfully committing subterfuge in the 3ft adult hunter division? Maybe it's just a trainer providing an opportunity to an amateur who doesn't have the means to own a horse or show.

                I know a few trainers and amateur owners who have provided opportunities to others which have broken rules and it actually restores my faith in our sport. If an owner covers the cost of someone's show fees allowing them a chance to participate or a trainer lets an amateur hack horses (which happens at pretty much every barn I've been to), then good on them for providing opportunities to others for saddle time. I get not paying for a training ride unless it's by a pro, but often an amateur hacking another's horse is a win-win. For some, getting their horse out for a light hack when they can't get to the barn themselves is worth a few bucks.

                Our sport is so cost prohibitive and elitist as it is, we don't need an internet posse calling for suspensions and punishment for people they don't even know. I think it's really sad, and quite frankly scary, that people are offering to report this trainer and amateur based on an anonymous board poster, without directly knowing any of the details or people involved.

                Working amateurs getting chances to ride and compete when they otherwise couldn't afford to on their own is leveling the playing field. Exclusivity at the lowest levels of our sport is what's ruining it, not the people at the top.
                As an amateur you can indeed get more saddle time by riding other horses in the barn as long as you are not being paid to do so or being paid in any other capacity by the trainer/farm such as office manager, stall cleaner, or bookkeeper.

                The OP made it clear in her first sentence what this situation is:

                "So I’ve recently moved to a new barn where I’ve noticed some shamateur activity... one of the amateurs who shows in the adult hunters (on sale horses) teaches lessons on occasion, rides all the training ride horses, and gets paid as “barn help”. "

                This is a crystal clear violation.
                "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu
                Semantics

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Haylter View Post
                  I admit I only scanned this thread so possible I missed it bbbuuuuttttt is OP even 100% certain this other person is indeed claiming their status/ competing as an amateur????
                  When you just scan you should probably at least read the posts by the original poster.

                  Originally posted by Pintopony175 View Post
                  Also I did ask said amateur if she was a pro and she told me no.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by trubandloki View Post

                    When you just scan you should probably at least read the posts by the original poster.
                    Yes, I read that which does not state the competitions were necessarily "amateur only" or that person is actually holds an amateur status membership(thinking USEF as I am in the united states)

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Haylter View Post
                      I admit I only scanned this thread so possible I missed it bbbuuuuttttt is OP even 100% certain this other person is indeed claiming their status/ competing as an amateur????
                      According to the OP, she's employed by the barn, riding horses, teaching lessons, and showing in the adults. Where is your confusion?
                      *****
                      You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Midge View Post

                        Why does she have to provide all the evidence, pony up her own name and money? She can't pass the info off to mvp to file the protest, unless mvp is also at the show.

                        Why can't she pass on the first bit of evidence, such as providing proof of teaching then the USEF proceeds from there without involving the OP?
                        Ooh... a good idea is brewing. I can't do multiple posts, but check it out:

                        1. OP, assemble your dossier, send me the protest fee and I'll file that buggar under my name....

                        Stay tuned, y'all.
                        The armchair saddler
                        Politically Pro-Cat

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          shows in the adults on sales horses no less. Not that showing sales horses is a violation of the ammy rules in and of itself, but in conjunction with everything else presented, just kind of move the shammy alarm bells up to 5 alarm fire bells
                          Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by skip99 View Post

                            It is disheartening when I had to stop the couple of irregular activities that helped cover some horse expenses to be eligible to compete in the amateur divisions, but then see Chronicle publish an article on a AO jumper rider who has her own business and openly advertises her training services on her business social media page.
                            2. ..... and I extend the same offer to you, skip99.

                            I'll just be the one thorn in the cheaters' side. You all want to stay on good terms with them, so let me be the scapegoat or your mercenary. I.just.don't.care because I'm tired of everyone knowing about cheating and not being able to stop it. I mean, if it's mvp filing the protest whether the evidence comes from Vermont or Ohio or Idaho, the rest of you all are safe, right?

                            Anyone else have a good dossier of evidence, $250 and some fear of reprisal?
                            The armchair saddler
                            Politically Pro-Cat

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              An "amateur" is supposed to be someone who shows for fun, not profit. Our horse-related money is on a one-way trajectory: away from us. Whatever the designation's past, today its intent is to provide a semi-level playing field for people who aren't living within the sport. In other words, it gives those of us stuck in an office or otherwise pulled by life much of the week an opportunity to compete against others in the same boat.

                              Pros use showing, in part, to advertise their services. Someone who shows well is more attractive as a sales rider or beginner trainer than someone who never enters the ring.

                              More than as an advertisement, this is an issue because making money off of the sport implies a leg up on the rest of us who spend the majority of our time away from the barn. It's hard to imagine being paid to ride a barn's sales horses fits into the above description. Anyone who is riding training rides, teaching lessons, or otherwise making money off of the sport is not an amateur.

                              I really love the German licensing model. It would certainly clear out some of the crud gumming up the sport right now. Too bad those within would never allow it. It sounds much too honest and fair.
                              "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Tiramit View Post
                                An "amateur" is supposed to be someone who shows for fun, not profit. Our horse-related money is on a one-way trajectory: away from us. Whatever the designation's past, today its intent is to provide a semi-level playing field for people who aren't living within the sport. In other words, it gives those of us stuck in an office or otherwise pulled by life much of the week an opportunity to compete against others in the same boat.

                                Pros use showing, in part, to advertise their services. Someone who shows well is more attractive as a sales rider or beginner trainer than someone who never enters the ring.

                                More than as an advertisement, this is an issue because making money off of the sport implies a leg up on the rest of us who spend the majority of our time away from the barn. It's hard to imagine being paid to ride a barn's sales horses fits into the above description. Anyone who is riding training rides, teaching lessons, or otherwise making money off of the sport is not an amateur.

                                I really love the German licensing model. It would certainly clear out some of the crud gumming up the sport right now. Too bad those within would never allow it. It sounds much too honest and fair.
                                Well.... just a bit of a historical- and philosophical correction.

                                Back in the rich, mid-20th century when ladies who lunched and rode paid their pros for training and lessons, the AHSA created a division for them so that they could show without having to be in direct competition with those they employed... but who might also beat them as those pros would, we expect, out-ride them. It was about fair competition. This isn't new. But that divided competition also created smoother business relationships if clients and trainers are not made into competitors.

                                Again, it seems to me, that the goal was to create a division that clients-- the font of money for everyone else-- could enjoy. If you don't get people to come horse show, the rest of it falls off, too.

                                One of the problems with the amateur rule is that it really was not written to protect anyone who for whom "amateur" meant something like "can't get saddle time because she's working a 9-5 job." Truly, this wasn't the class nor concern of the AHSA at the time.
                                The armchair saddler
                                Politically Pro-Cat

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by mvp View Post

                                  Well.... just a bit of a historical- and philosophical correction.

                                  Back in the rich, mid-20th century when ladies who lunched and rode paid their pros for training and lessons, the AHSA created a division for them so that they could show without having to be in direct competition with those they employed... but who might also beat them as those pros would, we expect, out-ride them. It was about fair competition. This isn't new. But that divided competition also created smoother business relationships if clients and trainers are not made into competitors.

                                  Again, it seems to me, that the goal was to create a division that clients-- the font of money for everyone else-- could enjoy. If you don't get people to come horse show, the rest of it falls off, too.

                                  One of the problems with the amateur rule is that it really was not written to protect anyone who for whom "amateur" meant something like "can't get saddle time because she's working a 9-5 job." Truly, this wasn't the class nor concern of the AHSA at the time.
                                  That's why I wrote, "Whatever the designation's past, today its intent is to provide a semi-level playing field for people who aren't living within the sport."
                                  "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    I really wish it was the case that USEF cared a cent for people who can’t live within the sport, but that is obviously not true at all. The USEF amateur rule is for people who have enough money to live on the circuit with a string.

                                    if anyone cared about working amateurs, the amateur classes would be on the weekend, which they definitely are not most of the time.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Tiramit View Post
                                      An "amateur" is supposed to be someone who shows for fun, not profit. Our horse-related money is on a one-way trajectory: away from us. Whatever the designation's past, today its intent is to provide a semi-level playing field for people who aren't living within the sport. In other words, it gives those of us stuck in an office or otherwise pulled by life much of the week an opportunity to compete against others in the same boat.

                                      Pros use showing, in part, to advertise their services. Someone who shows well is more attractive as a sales rider or beginner trainer than someone who never enters the ring.

                                      More than as an advertisement, this is an issue because making money off of the sport implies a leg up on the rest of us who spend the majority of our time away from the barn. It's hard to imagine being paid to ride a barn's sales horses fits into the above description. Anyone who is riding training rides, teaching lessons, or otherwise making money off of the sport is not an amateur.

                                      I really love the German licensing model. It would certainly clear out some of the crud gumming up the sport right now. Too bad those within would never allow it. It sounds much too honest and fair.
                                      As somebody who has shown for many years in the German system, I honestly think this discussion is ridiculous....

                                      I have been in the same class together with high class professionals.. BTW as a kid I also showed in the same classes with Ludger Beerbaum many times , before he became famous 😀😀..
                                      the German system does not care who makes money with cleaning stalls or giving a lesson... The system looks at the ability of the rider and the horse.. The classes are not divided in AA and Pros but the divide is done by looking at the ranking of the rider and the show record of the horse... So me as a low ranked rider might be in the same class as a high ranked rider with a horse without show record.. He will be out though as soon as his horse has wins...
                                      I think that is a fair system and it also helps riders who do need to make some money in order to be able to show...
                                      The US system just favors the rich who are afraid of competition....
                                      https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
                                      https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        The show industry over here is not comparable to Germany in number of participants or number of shows and darn sure not comparable in what it would cost USEF to administer it. How much would you willing to pay for that new licensing department?

                                        Biggest issue is people thinking they are special and willfully ignoring the rules we do have.
                                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by findeight View Post
                                          The show industry over here is not comparable to Germany in number of participants or number of shows and darn sure not comparable in what it would cost USEF to administer it. How much would you willing to pay for that new licensing department?

                                          Biggest issue is people thinking they are special and willfully ignoring the rules we do have.
                                          What is the cost difference? Right now showing is ridiculously, over-the-top, expensive so if the admin overhead is higher but the cost to show much lower, it might work out to be less expensive in the long run. I'd rather be ranked by level than ousted by $$$$$ I can spend on a horse or showing each week.
                                          "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

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