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Commission question when buying..

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  • Commission question when buying..

    Do most sellers of horses in the lower to mid 5 figure range price horses, assuming they will pay commission to the buyers trainer? As in, is there a markup, so if you didnt involve a trainer, could you expect about 10 percent reduction/negotiation room?

  • #2
    I would expect the buyer to pay the commission to their own trainer unless it is specifically discussed between the seller and the buyers trainer. as a seller I would expect to pay a commission to my broker if using one.

    basically - if i called Trainer McHunter and said - hey fuzzybutt is for sell, do you know of anyone looking - I expect to pay them a commission if they brought the buyer to me. If I list fuzzybutt on dreamhorse and Trainer McHunter called me and said - I have a kid looking for a horse can we come ride? I'd expect kid to pay the commission to the trainer. BUT after the ride and everyone was on to PPE trainer said they would like to build 10% in for a fee I'd probably say OK (if they were not jerky jerkface) however if i got a bill after the fact I'd laugh and send it back to them with a no thank you.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Wondering because a lot of horses advertised online have no price listed, and can't figure out why they wouldnt list a price, to avoid wasting time answering question on how much, and having it out of person's price range...

      Comment


      • #4
        As a seller, we DO NOT pay commissions to anyone. What I price a horse for is what I am hoping to get. In regards to sellers not listing prices. This is pretty norm in the industry for many reasons. As a buyer, when I do not see a price listed, I start assuming that the horse is likely out of my price range and I convince myself not to bother pursuing it any further. Sad really, as I think a lot of buyers miss out on sellers simply because they do not list a price and most people are too busy to bother contacting to find out exactly what it is or are worried the price will be out of their price range and are worried they will waste the sellers time.
        www.DaventryEquestrian.com
        Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
        Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness
        www.EquineAppraisers.com

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        • #5
          Yep, I agree with Daventry.

          I expect to pay no commission to anyone in a normal deal as the seller.

          I have had buyers make me an offer where part of it is that I will pay part of the commission, but I have rarely agreed to those terms.

          I do, however, tell my trainer friends that if they bring me a buyer I will pay them a "finder's fee" (usually 5%). So I suppose if someone brought me a buyer I could conceivably owe someone commission.

          I used to list prices for my horses. And then I got told by anyone and everyone that my prices were too high or too low. Everyone had an opinion and the only thing they agreed on was that I was wrong, and boy were people not shy about sharing their opinions!

          And so I quit listing prices. Now I state a price range (e.g. mid/high 5-figures) and will share the price if people inquire.
          __________________________________
          Flying F Sport Horses
          Horses in the NW

          Comment


          • #6
            The price of the horse is the price of the horse. Generally commissions are paid out of the proceeds of a sale, in the horse industry, since it is not regulated other than by what is told is "the norm", it can be whatever people agree to (or in the case of another thread on this forum - not agreed to but billed for anyway). The best thing is to have a written, signed agreement that spells out who receives a commission. A seller could essentially have a contract that states they will pay X commission to X their trainer/agent and x commission to buyer seller/agent.

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            • #7
              Here are the reasons people don't list prices:
              1) They aren't serious about selling the horse and haven't decided on a price.
              2) They are uncomfortable about the price they are asking, sometimes for a legit reason, such as a really nice horse with an issue that they might not want to discuss fully in the ad.
              3) They don't want to prevent unscrupulous trainers from buying the horse and immediately reselling at a higher price, or they don't want to interfere with a trainer's ability to turn around and tell their client the horse costs 10K more than the actual price.
              4) They want to protect their own privacy (i.e. they don't want co-workers or friends who are also on social media gossiping about the horse they are selling).

              It's probably divided pretty evenly as to whether or not horses selling in the low-mid five figure range are being sold by a trainer or not, given that a lot of young horses sell without a trainer's involvement. It's usually pretty easy to see--when you call about the horse, is a trainer involved with the sale? If so, likely there is a commission. If not, then likely no commission.

              The seller does not typically pay the buyer's commission to their own trainer. Those types of deals are shady. The buyer pays their own commission since their agent works for THEM, not for the seller. Whether or not you involve your own trainer when shopping should not affect the price of the horse. It may affect the commission you owe your trainer, which is coming out of your pocket and which you are free to negotiate.

              As far as room to negotiate the price of the horse, I think most people have some flexibility in pricing whether or not they are using an agent to sell the horse. I would expect that horses being sold without an agent would have lower list prices to begin with, but not necessarily more negotiating room in the price.

              Comment


              • #8
                Usually they don't list price because if its on FB it will get flagged and removed as live animals arent allowed to be sold. I don't think commission is factored in. I agree most people assume there will be a commission paid on their side if they are using an agent as a buyer or a seller. In other words my trainer sells my horse, I pay her a commission; she helps me find new horse, I again pay her a commission--but only for the work she did for me.

                I agree its frustrating when prices aren't listed. It seems like people could at least give the mid-five figures type range.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Prices are very vague because 1. BNT priced higher 2. Unknown trainer - priced higher 3. Concerned about program/trainer - priced higher

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post
                    Here are the reasons people don't list prices:
                    1) They aren't serious about selling the horse and haven't decided on a price.
                    2) They are uncomfortable about the price they are asking, sometimes for a legit reason, such as a really nice horse with an issue that they might not want to discuss fully in the ad.
                    3) They don't want to prevent unscrupulous trainers from buying the horse and immediately reselling at a higher price, or they don't want to interfere with a trainer's ability to turn around and tell their client the horse costs 10K more than the actual price.
                    4) They want to protect their own privacy (i.e. they don't want co-workers or friends who are also on social media gossiping about the horse they are selling).
                    I also found that people didn't list the price or only listed a range because they wanted the inquiry and to have the option to drop their price into my range. My budget was firm and it surprised me how many horses I was shown that were $10k-$15k over my budget with assurances the seller would come down to my budget to get the horse sold if I liked it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What I've been seeing more and more of are horses listed within certain price range categories which makes more sense for those selling prospects since the prices can fluctuate up as horse receives more training and potential competition record. If a horse has been on the market for some time seller may be willing to negotiate more with price and then there's always the PPE which may give some leverage to negotiations if something shows up.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Madison View Post

                        I also found that people didn't list the price or only listed a range because they wanted the inquiry and to have the option to drop their price into my range. My budget was firm and it surprised me how many horses I was shown that were $10k-$15k over my budget with assurances the seller would come down to my budget to get the horse sold if I liked it.
                        This
                        "The best of any breed is the thoroughbred horse..." - GHM

                        http://www.mmeqcenter.com/sale.html

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gottagrey View Post
                          What I've been seeing more and more of are horses listed within certain price range categories which makes more sense for those selling prospects since the prices can fluctuate up as horse receives more training and potential competition record. If a horse has been on the market for some time seller may be willing to negotiate more with price and then there's always the PPE which may give some leverage to negotiations if something shows up.
                          I agree this is a major reason for no prices. Seller wants to reserve the right to bump the price a bit if the horse gets more training or shows well and doesn't want an ad with an older, lower price resurfacing later.

                          This is why a range is a practical way to handle things. As long as you know some basic math. I inquired on an listing a horse for mid 5 figures. Horse was $90,000. How is 9 the midpoint between roughly 1 and roughly 10 in anyone's book?
                          ~Veronica
                          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                            This is why a range is a practical way to handle things. As long as you know some basic math. I inquired on an listing a horse for mid 5 figures. Horse was $90,000. How is 9 the midpoint between roughly 1 and roughly 10 in anyone's book?
                            These are probably the same people who list a horse as "mid 6 figures" when the price is $150k

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              People are driving me a little nuts with this "mid" thing. Horses in the 5 figures can be between $10,000 and $99,999. This is an objective fact. $9,999 is 4 figures. $100,000 is 5 figures. The term "mid" is short for "middle" (maybe that is the part people don't know?) The middle of $10,000 and $99,999 is $54,999. So I would expect "mid-5 figure" horses to be around $55,000. And indeed, most people I've inquired about seem to see the split around $50,000. That is sort of, roughly, the middle. But for some reason I keep running around people who think the word "mid" means "high." I have had people with $75,000 and $90,000 horses advertise their horse as "mid five figures" and then be offended when someone expects the horse to cost closer to $50,000.
                              ~Veronica
                              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                People are driving me a little nuts with this "mid" thing. Horses in the 5 figures can be between $10,000 and $99,999. This is an objective fact. $9,999 is 4 figures. $100,000 is 5 figures. The term "mid" is short for "middle" (maybe that is the part people don't know?) The middle of $10,000 and $99,999 is $54,999. So I would expect "mid-5 figure" horses to be around $55,000. And indeed, most people I've inquired about seem to see the split around $50,000. That is sort of, roughly, the middle. But for some reason I keep running around people who think the word "mid" means "high." I have had people with $75,000 and $90,000 horses advertise their horse as "mid five figures" and then be offended when someone expects the horse to cost closer to $50,000.
                                Conversely, I saw someone post an ISO and state their budget was "Low five figures," which to me means usually $10-20kish. When people inquired further, they revelead their budget was $40k. That's in the mid range in my book! I wish there was a standard, defined by USEF or FEI or something.
                                "The best of any breed is the thoroughbred horse..." - GHM

                                http://www.mmeqcenter.com/sale.html

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by mmeqcenter View Post

                                  Conversely, I saw someone post an ISO and state their budget was "Low five figures," which to me means usually $10-20kish. When people inquired further, they revelead their budget was $40k. That's in the mid range in my book! I wish there was a standard, defined by USEF or FEI or something.
                                  She must have been chagrined by those sellers with the $90,000 mid-five horses into thinking $40K was low-fives!
                                  ~Veronica
                                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Oh man, my biggest pet peeve! The understanding (or lack thereof) of ranges

                                    I have two horses advertised in the 6 figures. I have gotten more inquiries about both horses only to have the potential buyer reveal that their budget is $15k. So note number one, ranges do not include the numbers after the decimal point!

                                    And ranges really aren't that difficult, though I guess this needs to be printed as a header on every sales site (and while I think that the lines can be blurred a little at the upper and lower ends of each range, I don't think the range itself is really up to interpretation):

                                    Low 5 figures = $10,000 - $20,000
                                    Mid/low 5 figures = $20,000 - $40,000
                                    Mid 5 figures = $40,000 - $60,000
                                    Mid/high 5 figures = $60,000 - $80,000
                                    High 5 figures = $80,000 - $99,000

                                    And, as mentioned, sometimes those lines blur a little. I have listed horses at $65k and had them noted as "mid-5 figures," but partly because (as someone else pointed out), I would have been perfectly happy to talk to someone who had $50k to spend.

                                    But then I read comments from people who say things like, "man, personally I consider 'high five figures' to mean anything that's high for me." Sigh. I guess the short answer is that there's no way to please everyone when it comes to trying to retain a little bit of privacy on a horse sale.

                                    __________________________________
                                    Flying F Sport Horses
                                    Horses in the NW

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