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Spurs put on in an illegal way

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  • Spurs put on in an illegal way

    Recently I saw a couple riders in a jumper class who had their spurs on in a fashion that I know USEF officials would eliminate for.

    It was 2 of 3 riders who had the same trainer. Since they seemed younger I decided to approach the trainer and just mention in passing about this since a million years ago my own spurs got looked at by an official. (They were correct but they still wanted to see them)

    I spoke to the trainer and it was a real and true brush off. I wasn't rude, I explained that it had happened to me that officials asked to see my spurs, and as such I try to warn folks I see in violation.

    All said and done. No thanks, just "yea ok."

    I don't know why I expected more, but had it been me when I was training and someone just told me a way for my students not to be eliminated I think I would have been a bit more grateful. Price of Wales spurs can only point down. Swan neck's can point up but that's the only kind that can. These were clearly upside down POW's on 2/3 students. I'm kind of wondering if the trainer does this herself as well.

    Em

    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

  • #2
    In gleaning thru the Jumper, hunter and eventing tack/attire rules, spurs are only addressed in the Ladies Side Saddle and in eventing (point downward). Dressage, however is much more specific about spurs and those rules seem to jive with what you're saying and may also be part of the dressage phase in eventing. Perhaps the spur guidelines are elses "Horse Safety" which I didn't look up.

    Depending on the show (local vs rated) I've witnessed some pretty interesting tack at local shows and when I've mentioned it to the trainer they look at me in total disbelief or ignore rather than wanting to look like complete imbeciles for collecting coaching fees and not know the basics about appropriate tack and attire.

    Comment


    • #3
      Funny isnt it?

      We were at a schooling event a few weeks ago and there were two riders there who had not evented before. With a coach who must not have known eventing rules. They were jumping the warm up jumps backwards. I hollared over politely that the warm up jumps are flagged - red on the right and they have to be jumped that way. I said just a heads up to avoid a collision and at a true event you will be eliminated for doing that. They all stopped and looked at me like - why the hell are you talking to us.

      Carried on and jumped it again the wrong way. I yelled again - hey just a heads up, jumping the warm up jump backwards will get you eliminated. Then they stopped and had a discussion and I heard the one say OH the flags show the direction? Then they continued to side eye me.

      I was trying to help.....get eliminated next time, see if I care! lol
      Boss Mare Eventing Blog

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post
        Recently I saw a couple riders in a jumper class who had their spurs on in a fashion that I know USEF officials would eliminate for.

        It was 2 of 3 riders who had the same trainer. Since they seemed younger I decided to approach the trainer and just mention in passing about this since a million years ago my own spurs got looked at by an official. (They were correct but they still wanted to see them)

        I spoke to the trainer and it was a real and true brush off. I wasn't rude, I explained that it had happened to me that officials asked to see my spurs, and as such I try to warn folks I see in violation.

        All said and done. No thanks, just "yea ok."

        I don't know why I expected more, but had it been me when I was training and someone just told me a way for my students not to be eliminated I think I would have been a bit more grateful. Price of Wales spurs can only point down. Swan neck's can point up but that's the only kind that can. These were clearly upside down POW's on 2/3 students. I'm kind of wondering if the trainer does this herself as well.

        Em
        What is the rule number for this?

        *****
        You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Midge View Post

          What is the rule number for this?
          I saw nothing in the rule book except in the dressage section; and wonder if in eventing there is a similar rule about spurs during dressage.

          Comment


          • #6
            It USED TO BE but is no longer illegal in hunters, jumpers, or equitation. HOWEVER, do not wear your spurs upside down in front of any of the older hunter judges. Just sayin'.
            .........just call me Nana.

            Comment


            • #7
              There is an eventing rule, and it's in the dressage section but worded in such a way that it applies/ appears to apply to all 3 phases.
              4. SPURS. a. Spurs are optional for all three tests. Spurs capable of wounding a horse are forbidden. Spurs must be of smooth metal. If there is a shank it must not be longer than 4 cm (1 9/16 inches, measured from the boot to the end of the spur) and must point only towards the rear. If the shank is curved, the spurs must be worn only with the shank directed downwards. Metal or plastic spurs with round hard plastic or metal knobs “Impulse spurs” and “Dummy spurs” with no shank are allowed. b. Rowel spurs - Spurs with rowels are allowed in the three Tests and when practicing/warming up. If they are used, rowels must be free to rotate and the rowel must be round and smooth (no tines allowed).

              That said regardless of rules, there's really no good reason to wear Prince of Wales spurs pointing up.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                I have asked USE and am waiting to hear back.

                If this is legal this is not a great precedent.

                Em
                "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

                Comment


                • #9
                  ages ago I was ringside helping out at a show - very local show. It was one of the pre-SS type equitation class. Parents and trainer were standing next to me. Their daughter was really a nice, natural rider, clearly one of the better riders in the classes.But I could see and hear the parents frustration at the judging and why their daughter wasn't placing well. "trainer" was trying to pass it off as judge not liking her horse - so I said as politely as I could - she's been on the wrong diagonal the entire class. Trainer "we're not focusing on that today"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wesierobb View Post
                    It USED TO BE but is no longer illegal in hunters, jumpers, or equitation. HOWEVER, do not wear your spurs upside down in front of any of the older hunter judges. Just sayin'.
                    This poster, IIRC, is a licensed official and is probably correct it USED to be and may still be in other disciplines, not currently in HJ and Eq. Judge in Hunter or Eq can chose not to use upside down spurs and any trainer not choosing to avoid sending riders in the ring that way if some judges will spin their rider out for that is stoooopid..

                    Lots of stupidity out there though and they don’t like to have that pointed out to them. God forbid they teach proper use of the aids, put them on suitable horses and not move them up until they master the basics. But, no, they want to advertise weak leg and unresponsive horse, they can have at that one. Can’t legislate competence.
                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=Xctrygirl;n10222879]Recently I saw a couple riders in a jumper class who had their spurs on in a fashion that I know USEF officials would eliminate for.

                      .... I decided to approach the trainer and just mention in passing about this since a million years ago my own spurs got looked at by an official. /QUOTE]

                      Curious as to why you didn't ask the steward before approaching the trainer? Not saying you should have done it that way, I'm just curious as to why you chose not to go to the steward first and ask about it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Get the drift this was not a USEF rated show from the first line of OPs post. VHSA maybe?
                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by findeight View Post
                          Get the drift this was not a USEF rated show from the first line of OPs post. VHSA maybe?
                          I’m pretty sure I know which show and which trainer the OP is referencing. While it is not a recognized show they actually do have a USEF official on the grounds and have for the last few years. This particular steward is very approachable and happy to answer any questions.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've gotten the stink eye for mentioning the outside assistance rule to a parent at a recognized HT and for putting a warm up fence back down to the allowed height. I don't understand how people can fail to read the rules. Outside assistance is basic.

                            I feel like we need a year or two of total hard core rule enforcement and eliminations to get the sport back on track vis a vis rule compliance.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lcw579 View Post

                              I’m pretty sure I know which show and which trainer the OP is referencing. While it is not a recognized show they actually do have a USEF official on the grounds and have for the last few years. This particular steward is very approachable and happy to answer any questions.
                              I don't think the OP felt that a steward needed to be involved. Seems to me it was something along the lines of someone like me noticing a horse about to go in for a hack and they forgot to take off or tie up martingale.. and we say - oh your martingale. And if it wasn't a USEF show then USEF rules wouldn't apply anyway

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                If you provide unsolicited advice (regardless of your intentions) and said advice was incorrect/outdated, I feel like one of the possible outcomes you should be prepared to deal with is being ignored...
                                Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by DMK View Post
                                  If you provide unsolicited advice (regardless of your intentions) and said advice was incorrect/outdated, I feel like one of the possible outcomes you should be prepared to deal with is being ignored...
                                  Ok great. So in the absence of commentary two "child/AA" riders out of three from the same trainer should be encouraged to ride with incorrect tack.

                                  Awesome.

                                  While we're at it lets just happen to ignore the child trained by her mother at a different show who was being cursed out and demeaned for all the world to see. From the ring warm up all the way back to and in the barn area. FOR over an hour. Yelling included.

                                  None of this is Safe Sport related so I guess correct equipment and appropriate behavior don't count.

                                  Thanks DMK.

                                  Em
                                  "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by gottagrey View Post

                                    I don't think the OP felt that a steward needed to be involved. Seems to me it was something along the lines of someone like me noticing a horse about to go in for a hack and they forgot to take off or tie up martingale.. and we say - oh your martingale. And if it wasn't a USEF show then USEF rules wouldn't apply anyway
                                    I agree about the OP’s intent. I was just pointing out that there was a steward and this show does actually follow USEF rules even though it is no longer recognized.
                                    I was also letting the OP know that this particular steward is very good about answering general rules questions in case she finds herself in the same situation again.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post

                                      Ok great. So in the absence of commentary two "child/AA" riders out of three from the same trainer should be encouraged to ride with incorrect tack.

                                      Awesome.

                                      While we're at it lets just happen to ignore the child trained by her mother at a different show who was being cursed out and demeaned for all the world to see. From the ring warm up all the way back to and in the barn area. FOR over an hour. Yelling included.

                                      None of this is Safe Sport related so I guess correct equipment and appropriate behavior don't count.

                                      Thanks DMK.

                                      Em
                                      I don't understand your interpretation of DMK's post. FWIW, bullying is Safe Sport related, so if you see a child being cursed at and publicly demeaned for over an hour, it should be reported. Hopefully the training requirement will help more adults feel empowered to speak up when they witness such behavior.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I believe I attended this show. Said Trainer won the High Score Trainer, and also won the Mini Prix. Said Trainer's clients also won quite a few ribbons. Said Trainer had upwards of 12 horses and ponies entered. I believe OP attended the show as a competitor, and did the MiniPrix. So Said Trainer may not have been a complete stranger to OP as Said Trainer's clients were in many classes, as was Said Trainer.

                                        There are two issues for which OP is concerned we are not in agreement with her.

                                        First, the use of spurs placed upside down. The phrase being used is "incorrect tack." Correct tack is a phrase used commonly for appointment classes and sidesaddle. Spurs are allowed in hunter and jumper competitions. So they are not incorrect.

                                        Is there a hunter/jumper rule outlining the manner of wear for spurs? There is not. A rider may wear just one spur if so desired. A rider may wear one spur high, and the other spur low. A rider may wear spurs above the spur rest on the boot, or just above the sole of the boot. I could make a Dr. Seuss rhyme out of this, but I won't.

                                        OP was attempting to assist a trainer regarding a rule that doesn't exist, and did not get a grateful "thank you." Nor did the trainer instantly help the clients switch the spurs to a more traditional method of wear. Other than to say, "Dualy noted..." there is no need for Said Trainer to argue the rules with OP if Said Trainer knows differently.

                                        It matters not if OP hypothesized if Said Trainer perhaps intentionally wears spurs upside down himself or herself. OP didn't observe Said Trainer wearing spurs upside down. Or even comment if Said Trainer had spurs on at all during OP's passing conversation with Said Trainer. Or I am guessing we would have read about that, too.

                                        The next question is one of etiquette. OP, in her own words decided to "approach" Said Trainer and "...just mention in passing." If OP's intent was to be helpful, and she was ignored...well, OP gets points for trying. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, as they say.

                                        However, as a fellow adult competitor, with years of competing under her belt, if OP had a problem, real or perceived, OP should not have confront Said Trainer or ANY trainer or competitor a 3 ring show with 400 competitors spread out over 3 days, and with a gaggle of friends, family, and folks out to have a nice weekend...all standing around within earshot of Said Trainer to provide "passing information."

                                        As OP is a seasoned competitor, she would (or should) know to go show management via the secretary's stand. Or, for immediate communication, OP could easily go to any one of the in-gate personnel with walkie-talkies to have them instantly relay OP's concern for review by the proper set of ears. Thus saving the competitor from being eliminated before entering the ring. Even IF Said Trainer did not respond in a suitably proactive manner after being approached by OP.

                                        And finally, OP's last post has now taken us on a tangential path from the initial question to the COTH group about upside down spurs, and unappreciative trainers getting helpful comments from OP. OP...your query has nothing to do with a mother yelling at a daughter at some other show. That is clearly an entirely different post for comments from the COTH group.
                                        Last edited by Calling Duck; Sep. 10, 2018, 05:37 PM.

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