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Halp - only in "hunterland" lease question

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  • #81
    Originally posted by Amber_M View Post

    I've seen it. Contract literally only dictates the vitamins and supplements that this horse eats, and that he is "to be under the care of ____________ (trainer)" but says nothing about training rides/etc. Prior to lease signing, regular/multiple LESSONS a week were agreed on, with DD as the rider. But none of this is in writing.
    Does trainer not have a training contract for their clients? separate from this specific lease agreement, and stating rate, how many training rides, lessons, show fees, commissions, notice, etc.

    If not, what's stopping the people from dropping the lease and NOT paying for any more training, if they can't move the horse and are unhappy with trainer. Then owner can figure out what to do with horse and if she wants to deal with this trainer.

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    • Original Poster

      #82
      Last edited by Amber_M; Sep. 12, 2018, 07:23 PM.
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      • #83
        Originally posted by Amber_M View Post

        No training contract signed. What you described in your last paragraph is pretty much what is happening. They're moving on.
        Now, that I’ve never heard of in an A level barn. Always seen written rules and contracts.
        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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        • Original Poster

          #84
          Originally posted by findeight View Post

          Now, that I’ve never heard of in an A level barn. Always seen written rules and contracts.
          The combo vagueness of the documents, the size of this transaction, and the specificity after everything has been signed is what sent me straight to COTH.

          Granted - I'm a third party, and of course some of the details my friend is telling me are going to be *her* perspective, but I have seen the contract for myself. It's barely a legal document - something found online and edited in-house by trainer (or owner? not sure who drafted)

          In posting, I was trying to gauge the level of normal this situation this was. I have been removed from the show world for a very, very long time.
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          • #85
            Yeah that under the care of the trainer really does mean the trainer is entirely in charge of everything, so the scheduling is through the trainer, and definitely mom cannot dictate anything to the trainer.
            Let me apologize in advance.

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            • #86
              Originally posted by lynne View Post

              If this had only happened once, I would agree, but according to the first post, this has happened several times. In that case, it's 100% on the trainer to have explained to the client what the horse's ride schedule is, and set up ride times or lessons for the client so that such a misunderstanding wouldn't happen again.

              I'm quite surprised how many people here are giving the trainer in this situation the benefit of the doubt. Training rides and pro schools at shows are the norm, yes, but repeatedly showing up to the barn or showgrounds and being told you can't ride is not, and should not be, the norm.

              My hunch is that the horse is actually as nice as advertised, and the trainer is very much enjoying having a fancy lesson horse in the barn on someone else's dime.
              People here are giving the trainer "benefit of the doubt," because they've either never been in any other type of program, they feel that this is the way things are done at A/AA barns, or they are part of the trainer scam. Why ANYONE would lease a horse for $50,000 in order to show 2'6" is beyond me. 2'6" is beginning jumping, not A/AA hunterland. So many people have been smart enough to make the big bucks in order to afford this kind of foolishness, then they show how truly dumb they are about the rest of life when they get taken in the horse industry. We're turning out lesson riders, not horsemen. In any other business, owners and managers would find themselves in deep do do if they behaved like this.

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              • #87
                Originally posted by anotherera View Post

                People here are giving the trainer "benefit of the doubt," because they've either never been in any other type of program, they feel that this is the way things are done at A/AA barns, or they are part of the trainer scam. Why ANYONE would lease a horse for $50,000 in order to show 2'6" is beyond me. 2'6" is beginning jumping, not A/AA hunterland. So many people have been smart enough to make the big bucks in order to afford this kind of foolishness, then they show how truly dumb they are about the rest of life when they get taken in the horse industry. We're turning out lesson riders, not horsemen. In any other business, owners and managers would find themselves in deep do do if they behaved like this.
                Who knows, maybe they show at WEF. I have seen $300,000 horses in the 2'6 hunters there.

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by anotherera View Post

                  People here are giving the trainer "benefit of the doubt," because they've either never been in any other type of program, they feel that this is the way things are done at A/AA barns, or they are part of the trainer scam. Why ANYONE would lease a horse for $50,000 in order to show 2'6" is beyond me. 2'6" is beginning jumping, not A/AA hunterland. So many people have been smart enough to make the big bucks in order to afford this kind of foolishness, then they show how truly dumb they are about the rest of life when they get taken in the horse industry. We're turning out lesson riders, not horsemen. In any other business, owners and managers would find themselves in deep do do if they behaved like this.
                  I know of a horse that sold earlier this year for $250k+ to a kid who has shown it once and only at 2'6". So what? If they have the money to spend and want something nice, why fault them or mock them for their decision?

                  As for lesson riders vs. horseman, a lot of these show barns have show horses and an IEA team. The kids have their nice horses and they also ride IEA, so they are getting all kinds of experiences. It's great because they get the advantage of riding nice made up horses to safely learn on, and then they get the fun and challenge of competing on the (often trainwrecky) IEA horses. I think kids actually have more opportunities to learn to ride different horses than when I was a kid, when I had just my one horse to ride and there was no IEA. My horse wasn't a totally made up horse, and I certainly learned to ride her and figure out her little kinks, but I didn't get the advantage that all these kids are getting of constantly riding different horses. Perhaps things are different where you are? But I'm in a barn full of kids that show A/AA and IEA, and that is pretty common here in Atlanta for other barns as well.

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                  • #89
                    Also probably you don't need to worry what everyone else's children are doing.
                    Let me apologize in advance.

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                    • Original Poster

                      #90
                      Last edited by Amber_M; Sep. 12, 2018, 07:23 PM.
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                      • Original Poster

                        #91
                        Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post

                        As for lesson riders vs. horseman, a lot of these show barns have show horses and an IEA team. The kids have their nice horses and they also ride IEA, so they are getting all kinds of experiences. It's great because they get the advantage of riding nice made up horses to safely learn on, and then they get the fun and challenge of competing on the (often trainwrecky) IEA horses. I think kids actually have more opportunities to learn to ride different horses than when I was a kid, when I had just my one horse to ride and there was no IEA. My horse wasn't a totally made up horse, and I certainly learned to ride her and figure out her little kinks, but I didn't get the advantage that all these kids are getting of constantly riding different horses. Perhaps things are different where you are? But I'm in a barn full of kids that show A/AA and IEA, and that is pretty common here in Atlanta for other barns as well.
                        I really love those formats for drawing horses at the IEA/NCAA/IHSA shows. I went to a few shows when I was considering chasing a riding scholarship in school. Now THAT will make a rider out of you!!

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                        • #92
                          Originally posted by Amber_M View Post
                          As an update, I got a PM from a *former client* who figured out the trainer (even with my location wrong!!!) because the story sounded familiar? Without divulging too much, this doesn’t seem like an isolated incident.

                          The size of this worlf always blows my mind.
                          The horse world is small but there’s two sides here and we only have one side and that second hand from OP and somebody who figures out who the principles are and contacted her

                          Im not supporting the trainer here either. Can’t support either side, no facts. But, yes I know people in tne 2’6” riding 100k horses stepping down from 3’. Even know a few stepping down former 3’6” Junior and AO Hunters carting riders around the 2’6” that are way more $$$ then the horse in this thread. That’s their business if they can afford it. But don’t know any beginner kids that found the horses online.

                          And still don’t agree with projecting what wierd situation is allegedly going on here onto the entire Hunter industry.


                          When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                          The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #93
                            Originally posted by findeight View Post

                            And still don’t agree with projecting what wierd situation is allegedly going on here onto the entire Hunter industry.
                            Not at all my intention. It was a humble attempt at getting a better finger on the pulse of the industry, and if this is something that happens more than I've heard of.



                            Everything is heresay in this thread 100%, because my friend isn't on COTH and because the trainer isn't here to discuss, or the owner. That's unfortunately the nature of the beast.

                            Again, I have always tried to give my friend the devil's advocate view and be unbiased. Another reason I came here - SO many perspectives on what could potentially be going on. None of this has to be shady. It could be as simple as reducing the amount of time students spend on horseback on their property in effort to minimize risk of insurance claims. I have no clue.... which is why I threw it out to the COTH oracle
                            Last edited by Amber_M; Sep. 12, 2018, 07:24 PM.
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                            • #94
                              Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                              Yeah that under the care of the trainer really does mean the trainer is entirely in charge of everything, so the scheduling is through the trainer, and definitely mom cannot dictate anything to the trainer.
                              This is a service business and as such it's the clients who can also call the shots, much of the time we defer to trainers due to their knowledge and advice. Most trainers actually want their clients to ride their owned or leased horses.What's the point of having a horse in training if the owner/lessee can't reap the benefits of that training, i.e. riding? I should be able to pull up to my barn and if I see that trainer is going to ride my horse, I'd most likely stick around to watch them school and then hop on after they're done. Or hop on first, warm the beast up and trainer gets on. But the day any trainer told me I couldn't ride MY OWN HORSE would be the last day they told me that.

                              Hopefully the OP's friend can either move the horse to another facility with the owners blessing. If owner refuses to OK moving the horse, then owner needs to pay back pro-rata portion of the lease (if it was all paid up front

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Right, but this isn't their horse. It's a lease horse, on a program, with care, custody, and control all falling under a particular trainer, with apparently no contract specifying when the leasee is riding. How odd. I can't really comment much beyond it seems very strange to engage in a lease contract that in no way addressed riding the horse in the program the horse is in.

                                I presume the telephone game is missing some pieces here and there, but that this is possibly the story of what happens when an inexperienced child is left alone playing on the internet...
                                Let me apologize in advance.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #96
                                  Last edited by Amber_M; Sep. 12, 2018, 07:24 PM.
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                                  • #97
                                    Oh I'm sorry, I was suggesting much of this story was fabricated.
                                    Let me apologize in advance.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #98
                                      Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                                      Oh I'm sorry, I was suggesting much of this story was fabricated.
                                      Very possible. There are SO MANY variables and I'm only a third party. BUT - the details of this confused the hell out of me and sent me running to the most savvy group of horse people I know - COTH
                                      Last edited by Amber_M; Sep. 12, 2018, 07:24 PM.
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                                      • #99
                                        It would seem like the logical person for them to contact would be a lawyer. Should they choose to do that, I suggest you the n remove your posts that have already led people to identify the people in question.
                                        Let me apologize in advance.

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                                          It would seem like the logical person for them to contact would be a lawyer. Should they choose to do that, I suggest you the n remove your posts that have already led people to identify the people in question.
                                          Was thinking about this but did not want to seem shady to the Forum. This is definitely a situation where "Mischief Managed" and a tap of the wand is appropriate though


                                          Again everyone - thanks for your help!
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