• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Success at Re-Training the Chronically Overbent Horse???

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Success at Re-Training the Chronically Overbent Horse???

    I was going to post this on the dressage forum but since this horse is destined to be a hunter; I think it's better here.

    I recently bought a 6 yo Hann/TB gelding - he is a big, strong horse with a tendency to spook. It seems he has been "trained" to go on the bit when something unsettles him which isn't a bad idea in theory but the problem is, it doesn't seem that this was accompanied with much, if any, leg.

    So now I have a horse that curls up behind the bit, is sensitive to leg & is rather strong. He has this reaction when I have to go to my hand to keep him straight when he is spooking away from something or actually, any time I have to go to my hand at all. It's not only in response to a spook.

    He was overbitted when I went to try him so I have switched him to a plain snaffle.

    He's not hot at all - maybe a little worried at the present time...when he gets strong, he pulls down. I've had some luck with "lifting" him out of it but sometimes, the lift makes him want to curl under even more. I can't use only leg as he is strong and a little sensitive right now so leg sends him even more forward.

    I have some ideas to try with him but was curious to hear what other people have done with a similar horse. We won't even discuss the jump right now
    \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

  • #2
    Well, generally I would say find a field, aim uphill, and kick, repeat as necessary. But from the rest of your description of the horse I think that advice might get me a conviction for manslaughter. I would probably still try it, but tranquilized, until you think you can trust him. You need to instill a natural forward and the stretch that comes with it, and usually I take them out of the ring for that.

    Comment


    • #3
      We purchased an 8yo dressage horse trained to 4th level who would curl yet had been trained to be very sensitive to the leg. It took us a while but we repeatedly would send him forward while allowing him to stretch out and down. If he got worried or rushed, we would very lightly take a feel of his mouth until he settled. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

      He became a fantastic hunter, evented to training level and never had a stadium rail. He just had to learn that when we took a light to moderate contact that his mouth would not be hurt. He was better in about 4-6 months, much better in 10-12 months and stopped curling completely in around a year.

      We also switched to a snaffle with a link in the center so it didn't touch the roof of his mouth and it helped quite a bit as he has a low palate. Maybe not the exact same situation but perhaps there's something you can use.
      "We don't ride the clock. We ride the horse." Reiner Klimke.
      http://community.webshots.com/user/arnikaelf

      Comment


      • #4
        One of my students has a youngish WB who also does this.... a lot of this can be caused by people who don't understand that round comes back to front or on a horse (lots of times OTTBs) who they are trying to slow down front to back.

        Sending off the leg really is the answer, as they have to start to understand to move up into the contact, rather then hide from it. It is a slow process, but consistancy is the key here....

        As mentioned above, a change of bit may be appropriate, a single joint hitting the roof of the mouth certainly could add to the problem, but different horses will have different sensitivities. One thing I can say, IMHO, is whatever you do, don't throw a hard bit on him, it will only make it worse. I would find the softest bit you can safely ride him in - I really like French Links on a loose or D ring...
        Concordia means "Harmony" in Latin.
        Full Time Dressage Addict

        Comment


        • #5
          At one point in his training (due to a bad trainer), my horse was like that. My horse has also always liked to lean on my hands, further complicating the situation. My horse did not really know what the word "forward" meant, so the first thing I did was install a good forward button. I would do a lot of transitions (especially upward ones) during my ride, and really worked on having prompt, forward transitions. Once I installed prompt, forward transitions, it was much easier to keep him forward and not curling every time I took some contact with his mouth. I found that, with my horse, once I installed a forward button, I pretty much had no problems with curling after that.

          Comment


          • #6
            I also have an exercise which helps, to add to the comments above. Counter bend on a circle. Most horses need to lift for that, and you can reward the lifting and not nag and get the feel you want. This worked for me with a quite forward horse that went BTV by habit. It's very nerve wracking to be shooting along with the horse's chin on her chest!
            Eileen
            http://themaresnest.us

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
              Well, generally I would say find a field, aim uphill, and kick, repeat as necessary. But from the rest of your description of the horse I think that advice might get me a conviction for manslaughter. I would probably still try it, but tranquilized, until you think you can trust him. You need to instill a natural forward and the stretch that comes with it, and usually I take them out of the ring for that.

              please tell me you were kidding...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                Well, generally I would say find a field, aim uphill, and kick, repeat as necessary. But from the rest of your description of the horse I think that advice might get me a conviction for manslaughter. I would probably still try it, but tranquilized, until you think you can trust him. You need to instill a natural forward and the stretch that comes with it, and usually I take them out of the ring for that.
                dont do this

                thats higly dangerous for you as a rider i cannot stress this enough you do not ever ride a horse that been tranquilized ever- op


                perphaps if hes on grian take it all away and give him just hay for now ok
                as this with added good grass can make a horse very excited

                it takes at least 2weeks for it to come out of his system and only days to go in

                then do the regular checks of teeth, tack and back and feet

                sounds like he hasnt had enough work the more work you do the better the horse will go and the less spooks you get

                this say with added foodstuffs and not enough will make ahorse go hypo spooky


                so you need to make him focused on what your asking ,
                so put trotting poles dowm the centre line if you cant get him and about to work him , as when i have ahorse like this he goes out as this would keep hi more focused in more of a relaxed atmostphere also give the horse plenty to see and at the same time i can work him outsiide just as much as in
                and if in i would click and kick and send him to a gallop down the long side of th areana until he got the message of goig of my heal but always praze the horse via pat or a scratch when he did as this instills in him mind
                to go forwards when iask him to and not the other way around
                with sharp or lazy horses this work well but often some people haent the balls to do it as they of the what if's and that creats a doubt - and to a horse a doubt is a fear factor

                of which 1st is to flee 2nd is to advade you - so often people get scard and turn scare the horse - defeats the objective

                so i pressuming your in and this is one simple method takes longer but can achieve the same results

                - so the horse is strong so put trotting poles down th centre line, work the horse in walk and trot over the poles making figure of eight turns by that i mean your working both ends turning both ways in to the polse of left and right
                this will get you his attention as when he starts to tire then he will pay more attention on you

                then you can start using the whole of the areana and encourage the shortening and lengthening by using the half halt stride

                this way you taking his steam away from him by working him in, and when youhave have his attention your encouraging the horse to use himself properly takes time but as he listens more then the less working in you will need

                with a horse thats strong the worse thing you can do is let him antispate your moves ok so do the opposite



                keep the work paterns varied so he doing someting different every day

                changing bits also keeps a horse guessing as bits are only as strong as the hands that use them

                dont nag him to much a this type or will take offence but use your brain
                sit in and think

                if hes napping then sit in to the saddle and ride the trama and pass the object be it a door a corner or whatever - ignore him and sit in with a determination and ignorance of whatever it hes spooking at
                once you ignore it as a rider the horse will to

                go here lots of helpful tips read all of page one and all links

                http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=178116

                and whilse you at it

                read this link

                http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=223453

                its all relevant what we want here is wants going to work for you and your horse

                in the above i have given you a couple of exsamples to try aand to think over
                thing is each horse is different - so your work effects may have to change a lot is by commonsense keepthe varied dont nag and do circles and go round and round and round its boring or ask the same over and over again this leeds to you being frustrated and not getting anywhere with the horse

                so before your rides on plan what your going to do, set the areana up ready and work the horse in- then when you have his attention then do some educational traiining things like leg yeild half halts, shoulder ins etc in time your be working the horse in less 1st and the educational triaing side will take over - as he learns to trust and listen more
                Last edited by goeslikestink; Jul. 21, 2010, 05:48 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I can only tell you what I would do with a horse like that if he were mine - but only you will know how much is too much and what time is the right time.

                  Check his: saddle, teeth, shoes, back, hocks, etc and make sure he's physically okay and everything fits. Also check his nutrition and see if anything he's on could be playing with his brain cells. If you can, increase his turnout (if he isn't on a lot of turnout already).

                  I probably wouldn't ride him for a month or two. Instead I would let him chill out and do a lot of groundwork with him building trust and confidence and basically re-starting him. There's a lot you can do on the ground from lunging (teaching voice commands), lunging in sidereins, long lining, etc etc. All of which is great for training and if done right, can relax him without putting yourself in harms way should he spook.

                  The problem is once they learn to hold the tension in that way and develop muscles to help them hold the tension in that way (sucked back behind the bit), it's really hard to teach them not to. Lateral work, poles, etc are all really helpful too.

                  I had a OTTB that sounds a lot like this. Very spooky, very forward, but strong. He had a whole list of issues but once we took a step back and build him from the ground up, he was okay.

                  Good luck. Be safe.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Thanks to all who responded.

                    Just to clarify; this horse is behind the bit but still forward - strong, in fact. In addition to being trained this way I do believe he has also figured out that if he curls up instead of coming back when I half halt; he can continue on on a 25 foot stride.

                    And I wouldn't even say it's a nervous habit though I do sense that he is a bit worried at times though I suspect that this is from poor handling and not necessarily in his personality.

                    He does have moments of brilliance where he accepts a light contact & pokes his nose into the bridle and canters along beautifully so I'm not totally without hope.

                    Right now since he is so new, I am completely ignoring his spook & it seems to be getting better. I'm not nervous on him & I think that helps his confidence.

                    Concordia, you are so right. This horse feels like he was just pulled on to get to slow down which would explain why he is a tad sensitive to my leg. I try to keep my leg on constantly & use my core to get him to come back & if I do use my hand; it's only to balance than I try to let go again.

                    Anyway; like the counter bend on the circle & was thinking I might try a double-jointed bit.
                    \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 3eme View Post
                      please tell me you were kidding...
                      No, of course I'm not kidding. She needs to remove the pressure and tension of its previous training before she'll be able to do anything with it. Taking it out for a hack to learn to carry itself forward is one of the best ways to do that. But it doesn't sound like a safe enough horse right now to go out on its own, being strong and spooky. You all are welcome to go without, but I'd be going with at least a 1/2. More beneficial for the nervous horse, and a heck of a lot safer for both horse and rider. This board has a ridiculous attitude to ace. There are plenty of times where it's useful in a training situation, and this is one of them.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                        No, of course I'm not kidding. She needs to remove the pressure and tension of its previous training before she'll be able to do anything with it. Taking it out for a hack to learn to carry itself forward is one of the best ways to do that. But it doesn't sound like a safe enough horse right now to go out on its own, being strong and spooky. You all are welcome to go without, but I'd be going with at least a 1/2. More beneficial for the nervous horse, and a heck of a lot safer for both horse and rider. This board has a ridiculous attitude to ace. There are plenty of times where it's useful in a training situation, and this is one of them.
                        While I do think that some of your original suggestions about getting the horse out of the ring, hillwork, etc were quite good, I have to say that I am surprised that you were not kidding about the tranq aspect.

                        "Ridiculous" or not, I happen think that drugging a horse in order to accomplish an aspect of a training program is not only potentially dangerous, but also bordering on bad horsemanship (sorry if that offends, but it is my opinion). And it is certainly NOT something that I would suggest a stranger, on a public bb, do with their horse!

                        But to each his own, I suppose.

                        BTW, interesting that the only 2 people that picked up on this (me and goeslikestink) live outside of the US. It's been a long time since I've ridden in the States -- is this common practice now?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 3eme View Post
                          BTW, interesting that the only 2 people that picked up on this (me and goeslikestink) live outside of the US. It's been a long time since I've ridden in the States -- is this common practice now?
                          Well, you both already said something so I felt no need to pitch in. :-)

                          And as for a common practice? Not in my circles. Liquid trainer is never a good idea for under saddle work!!!
                          Eileen
                          http://themaresnest.us

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have a mare now that was ridden incorrectly,muscled around by the rider, she is super sensitive to the leg. She had to learn to accept my leg and learn that the leg doesn't always mean forward. Don't tip toe around the fact that he doesn't like when you use your leg, if you dont feel comfortable establishing with him that leg doesn't always mean forward have someone else do it.

                            I have also worked with another mare for quite some time with a trainer. A sassy horse that was quite nice but was constantly ridden in draw reins as a youngster and as a result was curled up. It has taken quite some time to reform her. We always made sure we rode her so she was engaging that hind end and with nice contact. When she curled up gave a nice swift kick and if need be lifted the inside hand a tad to encourage that head to come up. When we anticipated a curl up we would give a little inside leg jiggle to remind her to go forward to the bit. She is now extremely steady and going well.


                            That is just my humble opinion, I Wish you and your horse the best of luck!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Tranq in low doses is more common than you may want to know in many circles. By low dose I mean 1 cc or less of Ace. Not so much a tranq as an anti-anxiety medication. My old H/J trainers did this a fair bit. I do not as I am under no pressure to get something fixed quickly.

                              But back to the original question. I too would relook at bits and saddle fit. If it were my horse, I would also consider time off so the horse can undevelop the muscles it is currently using that are incorrect, and relearn/redevelope new, correct muscles.

                              I would use massage and TTeam touch to help the horse redevelop and become aware of the muscles it should use.

                              If it were not my horse and I was on a deadline then I would still do some massage, but I would do a LOT of lateral type work and transitions within and between gaits to help this horse figure out how to use itself in the best way. Also working on changing from collected to long to collected again (talking frame more than gait). I would try to be as quiet as possible with the hands. Possibly a pelham if I felt I needed the emergency help of the curb (otherwise leaving it quiet). Also work on a square.

                              But I think giving the horse time to unlearn the muscles will be of more long term benefit.
                              Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I am not an advocate for riding drugged horses, but I did read a study whose conclusion was that under a particular medication at LOW doses animals were able to learn a new behaviour.

                                Whether it is appropriate to sit on one or not, is another matter. I knew a lesson barn that routinely drugged their lesson ponies multiple times a day - it does happen.
                                Horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                                ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I happen think that drugging a horse in order to accomplish an aspect of a training program is not only potentially dangerous, but also bordering on bad horsemanship (sorry if that offends, but it is my opinion).
                                  And that's fine, if that's what you think. I happen to think that providing horses with guaranteed good experiences in certain situations, such as taking a tense horse out on a hack, is more beneficial than taking the chance of a bad experience. Bad experiences not only don't teach the horse anything, they provide them with more baggage, and possibly produce an injured loose horse and an injured tossed rider. Even if everyone survives, they've completely missed the point of the exercise: a relaxed horse that has learned he can go forward from the leg without curling or taking off, because you have taken him out of the environment where he learned these reactions. If the horse was curled up behind the bit and dead lazy, the first thing anyone would say would be "kick it!", because that's the right thing to do. It's still the right thing to do, but you have to create the environment where you can do that without the overreaction that is this horse's response.
                                  Good horsemanship is considering the risks and benefits to the animal of any given situation, and doing the best you can to remove the risks to provide the horse with beneficial training. It's certainly not new, or uncommon, for the judicious use of tranquilizers to be part of horsemanship.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I agree with CBoylen on this one. A small amount of ACE will just take a bit of the edge off not make a horse stupid or clumsy. And yes, they learn just fine on low doses of Ace. I too am amazed by how many people on this board feel that riding a horse that has had some ace is totally unacceptable given how many people I know for sure who give it to their horses.

                                    I also agree that this is the type of remedial training that works best outside a ring where a horse is more forward and more willing to take contact.

                                    I bought a horse once that had been incorrectly ridden in draw reins which caused him to curl up behind the bit. It's a very hard habit to break.

                                    Part of this horse's problem was that he also had a thick tongue and a low palate so many bits were simply uncomfortable for him.

                                    What worked for me was to find a bit where he would accept the contact. The two that worked for him were the Sprenger correction snaffle (which has a port) and a Happy Mouth Mullen Mouth. He liked a mullen mouthpiece and a fixed ring. He absolutely couldn't stand any loose ring bits.You may need to experiment with different mouthpieces to find one that works for him.

                                    I also frequently rode this horse bitless in a side pull style bridle where he accepted my hand. Then I worked on the bit.

                                    I had to be very, very careful about keeping my contact light and steady and I had to start from scratch to get him to accept the bit while I had my leg on him and I had to ride through a few tantrums when he tried to explain to me that what I was asking wasn't possible.

                                    He was a lovely horse in the end, so it certainly can be corrected!
                                    Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                                    EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      My TB was like that when I bought him. Forward, but would curl behind the bit and ultra sensitive to the leg. Well my trainer had me swing my legs on his sides purposely at the walk to make him less sensitive to the leg. Once that was done I could actually put my leg on him and push him from behind and teach him to stretch into contact.
                                      I love cats, I love every single cat....
                                      So anyway I am a cat lover
                                      And I love to run.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        While I have never personally used Ace on a horse I was riding, I have no problems with what CBoylen proposes and would certainly keep that option in my back pocket if I met a horse that I thought needed the extra help.


                                        As for a response to the OP, one of the most important things to do to address an overbent horse is to really stick the horse to your seat. The horse should come out of the walk to the halt from seat. He should go trot to walk from seat. Back this up with the rein and a back-up at first until he really respects the seat and remains within the parameters you set with your seat. If he gets past your seat or fails to slow down when you ask with your seat, do an immediate downward transition and then try again. It is not uncommon to do a downward transition every 15 steps when you are first teaching this.

                                        This is how you address the fact that he is forward/strong but still overbent: you can still add gas with your leg but you can control the speed and the pace with your SEAT, so you can still stay out of his face with your hands. You will be able to do a downward transition from seat while still pushing the horse foward into the bridle from your leg, with your hands just passively going along for the ride.

                                        It is not enough to just kick the horse forward; you need to be able to do that and ALSO control the speed independently from your hand.
                                        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                        Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                        Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                        The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X