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#metoo and Jimmy Williams

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    #61
    I am more and more thankful every day for the two most influential women trainers that I worked for as a working student and for one as an assistant trainer. Not to say that women aren't the bad ones sometimes as well, but in hindsight I feel lucky to have landed with these two strong outspoken women who were good role models in that way. My heart goes out to all of the strong women sharing here, as well as those that aren't. However, I feel this has to be more then heart felt wishes. I am wondering what would be most powerful as a follow up to these articles? Could there be a petition to the USEF to extend the safe sport rules to lower levels? Would writing letters help put pressure on to do so? Lets think next steps!
    Always be yourself. Unless you can be a unicorn. Then ALWAYS be a unicorn.

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
      Sue B and it happens to elderly women as well. Sexual assault is rarely about 'attraction'.

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

        It really irks me when the defending comments come up. It upsets me to the core. Usually from ugly ass women who have never once had to go through this. I don't mean to say that in a mean way, but it is something I have observed in comments since the #metoo movement started.
        .
        I really hope you mean 'ugly ass" as it pertains to their attitude and not as a measure of their physical beauty. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

        I will say, as a survivor (not always sure I can use that term, because while I'm alive, I still experience the long-lasting effects of sexual abuse on a regular basis), that physical beauty has little to do with abuse. While I'm not 'ugly-ass', I have my fair share of conformational faults, so to speak. It didn't stop my abuser. As an adult, while subject to what I would call minor sexual harassment from time to time, I have not had to deal with much. I don't attribute that to my ugly ass, but more to my f#$% off vibe that I wear like armor. It works for me. It's not going to protect me from a random violent predator, but men in my daily life stay away.

        Now, many woman with similar mechanisms feel that everyone should be able to avoid harassment. If they can, why can't someone else? I, thankfully, do not suffer from that delusion or else I might be in the "suck it up, buttercup" side of the ledger.
        Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
        Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by MtnDrmz View Post
          I am more and more thankful every day for the two most influential women trainers that I worked for as a working student and for one as an assistant trainer. Not to say that women aren't the bad ones sometimes as well, but in hindsight I feel lucky to have landed with these two strong outspoken women who were good role models in that way. My heart goes out to all of the strong women sharing here, as well as those that aren't. However, I feel this has to be more then heart felt wishes. I am wondering what would be most powerful as a follow up to these articles? Could there be a petition to the USEF to extend the safe sport rules to lower levels? Would writing letters help put pressure on to do so? Lets think next steps!
          It was in the last couple of years a mom came on here asking about sending her minor daughter off to train several states away with an unnamed well known trainer, albeit unknown to her (not that that really matters as we all know). The general consensus was no, and I pointed out the real danger young people face, and how very well known and beloved riders and nobodies alike continue to perpetrate horrors on these (mainly) young women.

          As much as we hate to seem paranoid or restrict opportunity for young people, literally the only thing I can really suggest is to keep a close eye on your children. It's becoming more and more difficult with the modern economy and work schedules, but I really just can't think of another way.

          Let me apologize in advance.

          Comment


            #65
            alright everyone....wasn't trying to offend you all. It was simply an observation I have made, and I was saying it tongue in cheek.

            I was not in any way saying that unattractive women can't be victims. Of course I know that any woman can become a victim.

            I really can't understand why anyone would defend known offenders.

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

              I really can't understand why anyone would defend known offenders.
              A) Agreed

              but

              B) Some people are flaming garbage bags.

              Let me apologize in advance.

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                alright everyone....wasn't trying to offend you all. It was simply an observation I have made, and I was saying it tongue in cheek.

                I was not in any way saying that unattractive women can't be victims. Of course I know that any woman can become a victim.

                I really can't understand why anyone would defend known offenders.
                I don't either, but you de facto did do that by insulting the victim and suggesting that any trait of hers was a causal factor in whether she was sexually assaulted or not.

                If your loyalties and sense of justice are where they say they are, how could you make that comment and think anyone would think it was funny? Why would you think it was funny or "tongue in cheek"?

                I think you owe folks more than an explanation and a "just kidding.. can't you guys take a joke." You owe them an apology. The readers here aren't the ones who did the lion's share of the work in creating out misunderstanding of your true meaning.
                The armchair saddler
                Politically Pro-Cat

                Comment


                  #68
                  Excellent article. Huge respect to the women who came forward, and to the author of this piece.

                  This is not a problem from "back then', and this is not a problem that only exists the upper levels of sport. I can guarantee every single one of us knows a local trainer with a similarly disturbing reputation. We need to all take responsibility and not support those who are known predators.Their skills as horsemen do not over ride our moral responsibility to keep ourselves and fellow riders safe. Don't buy horses from them, don't attend their shows, don't lesson with them. We need to send the message loud and clear that sexual predators are not welcome and will not be financially successful in our sport. (Of course, I'm not saying we should ostracize people for unsubstantiated rumors. It is up to to decide which stories are credible, and who you want to support. Just use your head.)

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by mvp View Post

                    I don't either, but you de facto did do that by insulting the victim and suggesting that any trait of hers was a causal factor in whether she was sexually assaulted or not.

                    If your loyalties and sense of justice are where they say they are, how could you make that comment and think anyone would think it was funny? Why would you think it was funny or "tongue in cheek"?

                    I think you owe folks more than an explanation and a "just kidding.. can't you guys take a joke." You owe them an apology. The readers here aren't the ones who did the lion's share of the work in creating out misunderstanding of your true meaning.
                    Ok...ease up. Never once not even close did I suggest any trait of hers caused the victim anything. Don't take that ridiculous leap. I was referring to the women I have seen online commenting blaming the victims or supporting abusers. Nothing at all was said about the victim. The readers interpreted it as I was saying that unattractive women can't be victims. THAT is what I am saying I did not mean whatsoever. It was a simple observation I have made.

                    I wasn't trying to brush it off as a joke - I said I said it tongue in cheek. Not the same thing.

                    Don't make this thread about me.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                      I really can't understand why anyone would defend known offenders.
                      Unfortunately there will always be people that, even in the face of an over abundance of facts, won't believe what you're saying. People that prefer to blame the victim than admit that someone they thought was great is, in fact, a VERY flawed person.

                      That and the internet allows people a ridiculous amount of freedom to say anything and everything they'd like, with very little consequence.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by Tigoli View Post

                        That and the internet allows people a ridiculous amount of freedom to say anything and everything they'd like, with very little consequence.
                        oh they're jerks in person too for sure.
                        Let me apologize in advance.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

                          oh they're jerks in person too for sure.
                          True! Often slightly less vocal jerks, but jerks nevertheless.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by blackbeauty View Post
                            Excellent article. Huge respect to the women who came forward, and to the author of this piece.

                            This is not a problem from "back then', and this is not a problem that only exists the upper levels of sport. I can guarantee every single one of us knows a local trainer with a similarly disturbing reputation. We need to all take responsibility and not support those who are known predators.Their skills as horsemen do not over ride our moral responsibility to keep ourselves and fellow riders safe. Don't buy horses from them, don't attend their shows, don't lesson with them. We need to send the message loud and clear that sexual predators are not welcome and will not be financially successful in our sport. (Of course, I'm not saying we should ostracize people for unsubstantiated rumors. It is up to to decide which stories are credible, and who you want to support. Just use your head.)
                            I wholeheartedly agree that the silence ends. I had an instructor who shared with me how as a teenager she was offered free board by the local Fox hunt/show jumping patriarch. He tried to rape her in the tack room one day. But even more disturbing was that my instructor said a few years later that the wealthy local pony/young rider matriarch asked her if she ever had any trouble with Mr. X. When my instructor described the assault, this womansaid, "I was worried about that but of course I couldn't say anything."
                            WTF? You can say something, you must say something. Otherwise you are just as morally responsible as the predator.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              I think it was SafeSport my ex-husband had to take (he's a tennis coach). One thing I remember him mentioning is that it also teaches professionals how not to get into any position that might be construed as sexual assault/harrassment and learn to err on the side of caution. Nuances being interpreted differently by different folks,that's not a bad tool for the honest pro to have.

                              I can't understand how Susie Hutchison defends Williams. In essence, she's calling all of those women, many of whom she knows somewhat well, liars.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Mara View Post

                                I can't understand how Susie Hutchison defends Williams. In essence, she's calling all of those women, many of whom she knows somewhat well, liars.
                                I can. She's also a victim. It's extremely hard to process. For some it is impossible because to see themselves as a victim can be devastating.

                                they were openly "dating" when she was 18. It is laughable to think nothing was going on before that, and can you imagine the horrifying guilt you would have to feel of you acknowledged that you were also excellent cover for your partner's horror show.
                                Let me apologize in advance.

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by mvp View Post

                                  I don't either, but you de facto did do that by insulting the victim and suggesting that any trait of hers was a causal factor in whether she was sexually assaulted or not.

                                  If your loyalties and sense of justice are where they say they are, how could you make that comment and think anyone would think it was funny? Why would you think it was funny or "tongue in cheek"?
                                  Question: CAN physical beauty be a factor in sexual harassment by certain perpetrators? Mayim Bialik seemed to think she avoided the Hollywood 'casting couch' because she wasn't "pretty." It sure pissed people off that she thought that.

                                  But is there truth in that for some perpetrators?

                                  This is a complex issue and while dismissing women because they must be ugly and haven't experienced harassment is gross...pretending physical beauty isn't a factor in some sexual assault is...naive, I guess?
                                  Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                  Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

                                    It was in the last couple of years a mom came on here asking about sending her minor daughter off to train several states away with an unnamed well known trainer, albeit unknown to her (not that that really matters as we all know). The general consensus was no, and I pointed out the real danger young people face, and how very well known and beloved riders and nobodies alike continue to perpetrate horrors on these (mainly) young women.

                                    As much as we hate to seem paranoid or restrict opportunity for young people, literally the only thing I can really suggest is to keep a close eye on your children. It's becoming more and more difficult with the modern economy and work schedules, but I really just can't think of another way.
                                    I remember that exact thread, and yes I agree with you! As a new parent myself, I am already telling my one year that her body is hers, and trying to respect her when she doesn't want to cuddle, give hugs kisses etc. I totally agree that the culture has to change and those changes usually have the most impact at home rather then institutions. However, I still feel l that there has to be some further action from the organisations that now know this is a problem as their replacement of the trophy clearly shows. I think COTH writing these is a great start, but now more has to be done.
                                    Always be yourself. Unless you can be a unicorn. Then ALWAYS be a unicorn.

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      But to imagine that beauty is objectively quantifiable is equally naive.

                                      Jimmy Williams was an borderline pedo/ephebiphile from the described victims.

                                      Other people, offenders or no, are not sexually attracted to this age bracket.

                                      But the undeniable use of position/force/dominance to achieve and enforce compliance and silence is undeniable.
                                      Let me apologize in advance.

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                                        But to imagine that beauty is objectively quantifiable is equally naive.

                                        Jimmy Williams was an borderline pedo/ephebiphile from the described victims.

                                        Other people, offenders or no, are not sexually attracted to this age bracket.

                                        But the undeniable use of position/force/dominance to achieve and enforce compliance and silence is undeniable.
                                        This is true. I would say this is a factor in almost all sexual harassment (I say almost all, because some people see persistence as just fine, when to the person on the other end it's harassment. It's all about how BOTH people feel about the actions.)

                                        Beauty is not objectively quantifiable (for the most part...) ...but not allowing that attraction and desire plays a part in some sexual assaults seems short-sighted. For instance, women are grabbed by the p@#$y because they are attractive to a certain man in power. We know he doesn't find women of enough value to grab if he doesn't find them attractive.

                                        JW's apparently had an age range, an inappropriate one no doubt. I'm sure the factors involved in who he targeted are numerous, complex and twisted.

                                        Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                        Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          Originally posted by Mara View Post
                                          I think it was SafeSport my ex-husband had to take (he's a tennis coach). One thing I remember him mentioning is that it also teaches professionals how not to get into any position that might be construed as sexual assault/harrassment and learn to err on the side of caution. Nuances being interpreted differently by different folks,that's not a bad tool for the honest pro to have.

                                          I can't understand how Susie Hutchison defends Williams. In essence, she's calling all of those women, many of whom she knows somewhat well, liars.
                                          I read a lot of denial in Susie Hutchinson's claims that none of the accusations are true. As someone else said, it must feel shi*y to realize that you were also, in essence a victim, and really even more so, to realize that you loved, and chose to spend a large chunk of your adult life with (I believe it stated that she was with him until he passed away, so over 20 years) a predator and borderline (or whatever) pedophile. It's easier to put your fingers in your ears and say "lalala it never happened!!"

                                          Comment

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