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Chinese Herbal Supplement for Muscle Soreness (?)

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  • Chinese Herbal Supplement for Muscle Soreness (?)

    My boy, Petey, has a severe 'blockage' of energy between the hip and the center of the spine. At least that is what the chiropractor thinks. An adjustment lasts 2 - 3 weeks, and then he reverts to toe dragging and short swing on his L hind (If this sounds like Goober, it is nearly identical -- same leg, same symptoms). VERY DISCOURAGING. I feel like I have broken both my toys.....

    But, with Petey, he shows incredible soreness at the front of his pelvis -- almost dropping to the ground. After several "thises" and "thats" of the chiropractor's voodoo, he is 95% symptomless. It is amazing.

    The chiropractor (Megan, by name) is not ruling out stifle problems, but she wants to try him on a month's worth of this special herbal remedy. The name of this stuff is:

    "Dr. Xie's Jung Tang Herbal Concentrated Body Sore Powder".. I am very skeptical of herbal potions, but I believe in Megan 100%, so we are trying it.

    Has anyone ever heard of it? The stuff is only available through a vet and is really expensive....

    I should mention what we have already tried:
    1) time off
    2) lunging -- with and without any type of "rig" (to keep his head down and lift his spine)
    3) changing saddle pads and saddles
    4) Light works 1. in ring and 2. on trails
    5) Bute
    6) Robaxin

    I consider joint injections a treatment of last resort, especially when we are not 100% sure which area(s) is (are) the culprit. I guess I am comitted to this herbal stuff, but I would feel better if others had tried it with good results.

    Anyone?
    "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

    Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump


  • #2
    Ummm YEP and it WORKED as did the accupuncture and lemme guess her last name starts with G!! she is one heck of a crackah!! (if you know her name and qualifications you totally get that joke).

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Confused by your post. I forgot to add that Megan does acupuncture when she does chiro, so I think of the 2 things under 1 heading.

      Your person must have a last name of "Graham" judging by your hints..... And my chiropractor has a different last name, altogether. Plus in NC, all chiropractors have to be vets, so they are considered to be learned people who know whereof they speak. I have been using Megan for years and think very highly of her.

      Are you saying that any healing modality works' with your person because there was no problem to start with????
      "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

      Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

      Comment


      • #4
        It will mask the pain. It won't fix the underlying injury.

        If it is expensive powder I'd just cut to the chase and ultrasound his stifle and his hindquarters to see if he has some sort of tear. It'd be consistent with the toe-drag and short swing on a preferred limb.. You could also test for PSSM if you think that he is a candidate.. or just feed him a PSSM style diet to see if it improves his way of going.

        Is the gelding you posted about a while back that I asked you about why your trainer thought that the workload that quick was appropriate? Not for nothing but this would be why. I'm not admonishing you, I learned this the hard way too and it is why now I am very conservative when I bring a horse back into work. I think they can be very resilient and can go right back into a full time work schedule from the field but their ligaments are much slower to acclimate.. and much less resilient.. and much more expensive to fix.

        Where I live chiros have to be vets.. but not all are equal and IMHO quite a few of them would rather address the symptoms than the underlying issue. I like my chiro (who is a vet) for chiropracting/acupunture but she is the last person I go to fore lameness evaluations for that reason. She is the best chiro/acupuncturist in my area but her specialty is not lameness or x-ray/ultrasound reading.. which is ok, I have a vet that is one of the top lameness vets in my state who is a wizard at diagnosing the issue, and I use the chiro vet as a follow-up to keep us on the right track in rehab.
        "i'm a slow learner, it's true."

        Comment


        • #5
          Have you X-rayed the spine and/or done SI injections? Although he "clears" after the chiro treatment, the reaction to initial palpation every 2-3 weeks is concerning.

          Comment


          • #6
            I am not familiar with Dr. xie's product that you mention but I have used 3-4 of his other products. Most noteworthy was Hot Hoof I for insulin resistance in one horse and Phlegm Fat for another horse with some digestive issues.

            Both my traditional vet and my equine chiro have been schooled in the use of Dr. xie's products. I also know they both confer with him to be sure they are using the right product for the horse's issue.

            I recommend his products, provided the person ordering them is well qualified

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Halt, Yes it is,. And I have been giving myself 40 lashes for not being a good caretaker. No one in his coterie of serfs and minions voiced that opinion before the show; I guess we all ignored the fact that, had he been a horse just learning the movements, he would not have been strong enough to do them in a show. But he came in from the field with his brain ready to work, even if his body wasn't, and fooled us all. (Did I mention that he won both first level classes and is now first level champion of the NCDCTA (North Carolina yaddayaddayadda) (We won money too!!!)

              The confusing part is that, after the show he had 2 - 3 days off and then, his first ride back, he was perfect. It was only on the 2nd ride back that his lameness became apparent. So that day he went for a nice long stretchy walk, in case he was sore. It was the NEXT day that he came out looking like a Tennessee Walker in a 'big lick' class.

              He has been off, or on rehab/light works (walking and stretching) ever since then. And it has been 3 weeks now. I think that, after 3+ weeks of TLC, Bute and Robaxin (not together) he should be showing improvement. He was perfect in all his classes at the show --- only 5 days later did anything show up.

              The powder may, indeed, just make him feel batter for a while. But I am of the school of thought that, as long as a horse is in pain, he will be guarding his muscles and will not move correctly. It is only by taking the pain away that he can go back to moving correctly, thereby using and building the muscles he needs to do his job.
              "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

              Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by walkinthewalk View Post
                I am not familiar with Dr. xie's product that you mention but I have used 3-4 of his other products. Most noteworthy was Hot Hoof I for insulin resistance in one horse and Phlegm Fat for another horse with some digestive issues.

                Both my traditional vet and my equine chiro have been schooled in the use of Dr. xie's products. I also know they both confer with him to be sure they are using the right product for the horse's issue.

                I recommend his products, provided the person ordering them is well qualified
                WOW. He has a lot of other products? Who knew? Perhaps everyone but me -- But now I am part of the inner circle, too. If I only could pronounce his name....

                Is it: "Dr. jhie hing tang?
                "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

                Comment


                • #9
                  Have you tried any back on track blankets? I am getting great results - half hour before every ride. W while back he pulled something in his haunches wrenching a shoe off in the fence. Chiro/acupuncture 2 times, lots of Posture Prep work.... mostly better. BoT mesh sheet finished the healing and makes him more flexible etc right out of the firld or stall.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by lorilu View Post
                    Have you tried any back on track blankets? I am getting great results - half hour before every ride. W while back he pulled something in his haunches wrenching a shoe off in the fence. Chiro/acupuncture 2 times, lots of Posture Prep work.... mostly better. BoT mesh sheet finished the healing and makes him more flexible etc right out of the firld or stall.
                    Yes siree. He uses his BOT for 6 - 8 hours every day, especially before and after exercise/turnout.
                    "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                    Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
                      Halt, Yes it is,. And I have been giving myself 40 lashes for not being a good caretaker. No one in his coterie of serfs and minions voiced that opinion before the show; I guess we all ignored the fact that, had he been a horse just learning the movements, he would not have been strong enough to do them in a show. But he came in from the field with his brain ready to work, even if his body wasn't, and fooled us all. (Did I mention that he won both first level classes and is now first level champion of the NCDCTA (North Carolina yaddayaddayadda) (We won money too!!!)

                      The confusing part is that, after the show he had 2 - 3 days off and then, his first ride back, he was perfect. It was only on the 2nd ride back that his lameness became apparent. So that day he went for a nice long stretchy walk, in case he was sore. It was the NEXT day that he came out looking like a Tennessee Walker in a 'big lick' class.

                      He has been off, or on rehab/light works (walking and stretching) ever since then. And it has been 3 weeks now. I think that, after 3+ weeks of TLC, Bute and Robaxin (not together) he should be showing improvement. He was perfect in all his classes at the show --- only 5 days later did anything show up.

                      The powder may, indeed, just make him feel batter for a while. But I am of the school of thought that, as long as a horse is in pain, he will be guarding his muscles and will not move correctly. It is only by taking the pain away that he can go back to moving correctly, thereby using and building the muscles he needs to do his job.
                      Here's my opinion, having been a dolt that hurt a horse by bringing it back too early. I think that most horses love work and thrive on it, and even will come from fully feral to W/T/C on the bit, using themselves, even if they haven't been ridden in months or years, I think most horses are happy to do it. It's just like us - most of us can go from couch potato to a mountainous hike, we might be sore the day after but we rarely blow anything if it is a one time thing. What I think happens is that the work causes small micro-tears or micro-issues in the ligament or tendon, some mild soreness we associate with hard work, whatever it is, a small microinjury that by itself would not be a big deal if given time to heal.. Except when a horse is in work a few times a week after a long time off, that microinjury doesn't get a chance to heal.. and the horses don't feel that it's too bad until one day -- poof -- a funny step in the paddock, or maybe a rap to the leg -- and it becomes a real, physical tear.

                      Just my opinion. I commiserate. When I was a teen I brought a horse back into work quicker than I should have. In his case he blew a splint and was lame for 3 weeks. You can bet I felt horribly guilty for months about this, I am lucky it was not worse.

                      And the stupid thing is I did the same thing to myself this summer, when I picked up running again. I was fine, and fine, and fine, until all of the sudden, my ankle wasn't. It still hurts now in November.

                      If there has not been improvement in the three weeks like you've said, I do wonder if it's something a bit more serious. I think with out of shape horses that are put into work early, the first thing to complain is their stifles. YMMV.
                      "i'm a slow learner, it's true."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by IPEsq View Post
                        Have you X-rayed the spine and/or done SI injections? Although he "clears" after the chiro treatment, the reaction to initial palpation every 2-3 weeks is concerning.
                        I agree with this. If it is really just muscle soreness, I've found that BCAA Complex works as well as, or better than, Robaxin.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          When thinking "Chinese herbal supplements", may want to keep this in mind:

                          http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/9/412/eaan6446

                          They are not really that harmless.

                          Hope they find what is wrong with your horse.

                          Our horse with the bad stifle, it was a chip in there that caused all the trouble.
                          X-rays gave that away.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've witnessed excellent results from various Xie products (Hot Hoof II, Stasis Breaker), and my vet claims that they work best when accompanied by acupuncture.
                            Nothing with horses is ever easy or cheap. And if it is, you're doing it wrong. They always rip out part of your soul when they leave. I guess that's how they find us later.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I am a huge fan of the products. In particular, Body Sore (which all of my upper level horses get at shows) and Stomach Happy (which I think works better than omeprazole for ulcery horses). But I’ve used 5 or 6 other products as well (one for a horse with heat intolerance, Cervical Formula for a horse with back issues, Hot Hoof I and II, a liver supplement, and maybe one or two others?).

                              __________________________________
                              Flying F Sport Horses
                              Horses in the NW

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by halt View Post
                                It will mask the pain. It won't fix the underlying injury.
                                ^^^This. If I read everything correctly, the horse is only 3 weeks out from some sort of injury or event that caused hind end lameness. The OP is guessing at what happened - I suspect we will never know for sure. But if it's 3 weeks and the horse is still lame, it's not simple "soreness." You can try majik supplements and singing in swahili by the light of the moon, but I suspect this will take time to resolve. I'd have the horse in limited turnout and not being worked until he sounds up. My vet always says, "You can try (the majik supplement or product) for 8 weeks and he will probably be much better or you can just let him rest for two months and he'll be much better." Depending on what is injured and how severely, it may take longer. But herbs and magnets and heat are not going to speed up the body's ability to fabricate new soft tissue to repair the injury site.
                                "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederatcy against him."

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Another thought - I've had a couple of horses who didn't "hold" their chiro treatments in the SI/LS area all that well. We shockwaved the SI region and that made a night and day difference for both....both "held" the chiro adjustments in that area moving forward. Or at least for long enough to muscle up where (or around where) they needed to. So that might be something else to look into? Happy to PM my experiences or answer any questions on what I've done.
                                  __________________________________
                                  Flying F Sport Horses
                                  Horses in the NW

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Shockwave is effective for joints but not soft tissue. So ^^^ if it's a joint issues, yes, if not, no. The OP does NOT KNOW what is wrong with her horse.
                                    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederatcy against him."

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Shockwave therapy is known to be effective for and is used extensively for soft tissue injuries.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
                                        Shockwave therapy is known to be effective for and is used extensively for soft tissue injuries.
                                        Waste of money.
                                        "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederatcy against him."

                                        Comment

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