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Update: post 28, poor topline...whats the next step?

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  • Update: post 28, poor topline...whats the next step?

    So I have 2 teen aged geldings whose top line just isn't cutting it. 1 I've had for over 10 years is normally a really easy keeper but got a little lean this summer. I increased his feed and his belly is getting rotund again but top line didn't bounce back. Generally looks like he's lacking muscle in his hind quarters and shoulder, neck looks great though. Gets ridden 3-5 times a week

    The other gelding I've had about 6 months. Ive increased his calories dramatically and he still looks poor, ribby, no muscle tone, spine showing. He's not emaciated just looks ancient basically. He has muscle trembling so I just sent off a 5 panel on him, haven't gotten the results back yet. He's a QH but if his breeding is correct he should not have HYPP at all but we will see what the test says. He gets ridden 2 to 3 times a week. Even his tail will tremble if I pick it up to brush it. He's getting 1.5 lbs of oil a day, magnesium and vit e supplement, plus 7 lbs of tribute kalm ez, 5 lbs of alfalfa bermuda pellets, and a fescue round bale. I'm suspecting PSSM which is why all the oil, but he'll only eat so much grain and gets bored with it so I'm also trying to get as much calories in him as possible. All his food except the fescue round bale is soaked until fluffy (not soup) and I add the oil in with the water so he can't pick through it. He's kind of a trembly horse in general, when I brought him home (a 2 mile trip) he was shaking so bad by the time we got here my whole trailer shook. Now that was the first time he has been hauled in his life and he kept it together for unloading and being turned out without crowding me or being unruly. I'm almost thinking maybe some residual EPM symptoms?

    Vet is coming next week. Hoping to have the 5 panel back by then. If the 5 panel is clean what is the next step to try to figure out whats going on with the lack of muscle tone? Other than poor muscle tone and the 1 gelding with the muscle shivers, no other weird symptoms (coat is normal, sweating normal, water intake normal, both are sound, both can back up and circle, I get resistance if I pull on their tail but the one will tremble his tail when picked out of its normal relaxed position). What avenues would you look at next?
    www.abernathyfarm.com

  • #2
    You'll want to test for Cushing's soon. Dec-June you'd do the TSH test. Right now, unless dramatically high, the ACTH test wouldn't be accurate given the seasonal rise.

    PSSM 2 or 3 would require a higher protein diet, as opposed to higher fat.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      JB do you know of any good resource to research a PSSM 2 or 3 diet?
      www.abernathyfarm.com

      Comment


      • #4
        This is Type 3, which is really formally called Myofibrillar Myopathy
        https://cvm.msu.edu/research/faculty...r-myopathy-mfm

        It's a sub-type of Type 2
        ______________________________
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lmabernathy View Post
          So I have 2 teen aged geldings whose top line just isn't cutting it. 1 I've had for over 10 years is normally a really easy keeper but got a little lean this summer. I increased his feed and his belly is getting rotund again but top line didn't bounce back. Generally looks like he's lacking muscle in his hind quarters and shoulder, neck looks great though. Gets ridden 3-5 times a week

          The other gelding I've had about 6 months. Ive increased his calories dramatically and he still looks poor, ribby, no muscle tone, spine showing. He's not emaciated just looks ancient basically. He has muscle trembling so I just sent off a 5 panel on him, haven't gotten the results back yet. He's a QH but if his breeding is correct he should not have HYPP at all but we will see what the test says. He gets ridden 2 to 3 times a week. Even his tail will tremble if I pick it up to brush it. He's getting 1.5 lbs of oil a day, magnesium and vit e supplement, plus 7 lbs of tribute kalm ez, 5 lbs of alfalfa bermuda pellets, and a fescue round bale. I'm suspecting PSSM which is why all the oil, but he'll only eat so much grain and gets bored with it so I'm also trying to get as much calories in him as possible. All his food except the fescue round bale is soaked until fluffy (not soup) and I add the oil in with the water so he can't pick through it. He's kind of a trembly horse in general, when I brought him home (a 2 mile trip) he was shaking so bad by the time we got here my whole trailer shook. Now that was the first time he has been hauled in his life and he kept it together for unloading and being turned out without crowding me or being unruly. I'm almost thinking maybe some residual EPM symptoms?

          Vet is coming next week. Hoping to have the 5 panel back by then. If the 5 panel is clean what is the next step to try to figure out whats going on with the lack of muscle tone? Other than poor muscle tone and the 1 gelding with the muscle shivers, no other weird symptoms (coat is normal, sweating normal, water intake normal, both are sound, both can back up and circle, I get resistance if I pull on their tail but the one will tremble his tail when picked out of its normal relaxed position). What avenues would you look at next?
          You mention how long you've had them but not how old they are... what are their ages?

          Topline takes the right amount of calories and the right work to rebuild, and can take longer to recover the older the horse is. You mention how often they get worked, but not what the work is.

          What kind of oil are you using?
          Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

          http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Angela Freda The trembly gelding is 16 and the other is 17.

            They are both lesson horses, both will go in a frame on their own. Both do wtc and light jumping. Trembly gelding only does crossrails and light canter work (5 to 10 mins per hour). Other gelding can jump up to 2'3 but doesn't go that high very often, normal is crossrails to 2ft. He gets more canter work but probably not more than 15 to 20 mins per hour lesson.

            Both always get at least 20 mins of trot warm up every lesson, both are turned out 24/7

            Oil depends what is on sale but either soy or canola oil
            www.abernathyfarm.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lmabernathy View Post
              Angela Freda The trembly gelding is 16 and the other is 17.

              They are both lesson horses, both will go in a frame on their own. Both do wtc and light jumping. Trembly gelding only does crossrails and light canter work (5 to 10 mins per hour). Other gelding can jump up to 2'3 but doesn't go that high very often, normal is crossrails to 2ft. He gets more canter work but probably not more than 15 to 20 mins per hour lesson.

              So the 3-5 times a week work is in either Beginner or advanced beginner lessons basically and no one more advanced is doing any rehab type riding for the topline?

              Both always get at least 20 mins of trot warm up every lesson, both are turned out 24/7

              Hills in turnout or at least slopey terrain?

              Oil depends what is on sale but either soy or canola oil
              I understand those are better oil options vs what many reach for, corn.
              JB would be a better guide on that though.

              JB Is oil [canola or soy] better than something like cool cals or another source of fat?

              When I was a lil barn rat riding every naughty lesson horse to 'fix them' for my instructor, she gifted me with the ride on a lovely [to me] TB broodie she had there to be bred to her stallion. I was over the moon when boarders [with very nice horses] complimented me on the work I did with that mare and how she looked when my rides on her ended [baby approaching].
              I would wonder if you have an advanced student who could put some conditioning work on these two designed specifically to build their toplines.**

              **as long as the Vet clears them to do that work, of course
              Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

              http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Angela Freda View Post
                Is oil [canola or soy] better than something like cool cals or another source of fat?
                Cool Calories IS soy or canola oil. It's vegetable oil that's been processed in a manner that makes it dry, but it's still 100% fat.


                I like alfalfa for toplines. IME, it's the protein that's lacking when horses have problems in this area.

                Comment


                • #9
                  JB A lot of research into PPID/Cushings has happened in the last decade. One of the things that are better known now is what normal AND seasonal ACTH levels look like for most common breeds. This is now the preferred time to test for ACTH levels as an excessive spike during this season can indicate PPID before the levels are high during the rest of the year.


                  To the OP - I suggest a PPID check as well. Lack of topline muscle was the only symptom my horse displayed. We caught it early in him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes, we know a lot more about seasonal rise ACTH levels. The problem is, if a horse is, say, 35 points higher than "normal", is that the beginning of PPID for that horse, or it that *his* normal seasonal rise? For sure there's a number at which you go "that's too high to be attributed to just the seasonal rise, PPID it is", but there's a gray area where you don't know, without a previous baseline, if it's a normal rise for that horse, or a sign of PPID.

                    It's only another month until the TSH test would be the thing to do anyway, so at this point that's what I'd do.

                    Soy oil is a better Omega profile than corn oil for sure. Cocosoya is actually a nice oil, among oils, for its Omega profile and the added E.
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      See how the blood work comes back and rule out any metabolic issues and get back. Until that is done nobody can give you sound advise

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Wouldn’t a QH (horse 2) be more likely to have PSSM type 1? With the trembling, it at least sounds more like type 1. Although for one that’s a hard keeper, a higher calorie higher protein source like alfalfa wouldn’t be a bad thing to try to add.

                        For oils, I like flax best, but it’s expensive at that volume. Ground or whole flax would be more economical, but you may want to use some of that and some of a cheaper oil to try to get it all consumed.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My horse was tested 4 years ago. His ACTH was 21. Normal, according to then recent research from Guelph University is up to 10-11 off season, rising to 11-12 in season. My horse was retested 3 years ago, after six months on 1/2 a pill per day. His ACTH was 13. We bumped him up to 1 pill per day and retested the following spring and he was down to 6.


                          When I read about people on CotH trying to get their horses' numbers down to double digits it made me wonder if my results were using the same scale, but my vet clinic confirmed that it is normal for initial results to return numbers in the hundreds.

                          We caught my guy early. Very early. It is my hope that in catching it that early, and keeping it in check with Prascend, one of his other diseases will be what eventually does him in.

                          We weren't going to bother testing my horse for PPID as the vet thought it such an outside chance. I only did it because the Prascend manufacturer offered to pay for the test (by the lab my vets normally use).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Simkie View Post

                            Cool Calories IS soy or canola oil. It's vegetable oil that's been processed in a manner that makes it dry, but it's still 100% fat.


                            I like alfalfa for toplines. IME, it's the protein that's lacking when horses have problems in this area.
                            Yes I know. But the different delivery [ie liquid vs dry] might have absorption advantages that I would guess JB could elaborate on.

                            A recent post JB made about it taking 3-4 days [or was it weeks] for liquid oil to be fully utilized by the horse made me curious if that was true of dry versions like Cool Cals.
                            Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                            http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't know that dry vs oil makes a difference in digestibility, as much as it is a volume benefit.

                              It can take a month or so for a horse to adjust to using more oil/fat in the diet, and that's a function of the fat, as opposed to any form That's why when dealing with PSSM horses who need higher fat, it just takes a while to allow them to make the change from trying to use glucose for energy, to being more effective at using fat.
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by JB View Post
                                I don't know that dry vs oil makes a difference in digestibility, as much as it is a volume benefit.
                                Meaning dry [Cool Cals] is more dense, requires smaller volume?
                                My one horse never would touch powders so we never used Cool Cals so I know very little about it [other than it's a fat, like the other liquids mentioned]


                                It can take a month or so for a horse to adjust to using more oil/fat in the diet, and that's a function of the fat, as opposed to any form That's why when dealing with PSSM horses who need higher fat, it just takes a while to allow them to make the change from trying to use glucose for energy, to being more effective at using fat.
                                .

                                Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                                http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Yes, more dense, so the same calories can come from a smaller volume.
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Angela Freda View Post
                                    Meaning dry [Cool Cals] is more dense, requires smaller volume?
                                    My one horse never would touch powders so we never used Cool Cals so I know very little about it [other than it's a fat, like the other liquids mentioned]
                                    Cool Calories is LESS dense. 1 cup oil is approximately equal to 2 cups prilled fat.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Well after watching the webinar on EPSM yesterday, I'm really suspecting PSSM 2 which still isn't going to show up on a 5 panel test. However, they don't like to diagnose PSSM2 through muscle biopsy until all other causes have been eliminated (because of false positives) So I may just keep treating and see if we have improvement. I'll still have the vet look him over and see what route she recommends.
                                      www.abernathyfarm.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Simkie View Post

                                        Cool Calories is LESS dense. 1 cup oil is approximately equal to 2 cups prilled fat.
                                        Thanks for the correction - I had heard the opposite from a few folks and, unfortunately, believed that!

                                        At least prilled fat isn't messy like oil!
                                        ______________________________
                                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                        Comment

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