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Critique this foot - Early Update Posted with Dates etc

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    #41
    Can you explain the wedge flip-flop? I've never seen it.
    "When I look back on my life, the times I have been stingy or unappreciative haunt me. I don't regret one instance of generosity." --PeteyPie

    Comment

      Original Poster

      #42
      Originally posted by keysfins View Post
      Can you explain the wedge flip-flop? I've never seen it.
      Here's a pic
      https://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2017/0...x-florida.html

      It is a pad with a recessed area in the front/toe area that half a shoe fits in. The back part is not attached to the hoof - so it flaps a bit. It allows the heels to flex and move. A wedged flip flip is just higher in the back like a normal wedge pad.


      Comment

        Original Poster

        #43
        Originally posted by JB View Post
        Well doesn't that just bite Out of the frying pan into the fire
        Precisely.


        I commend your bravery! I hope this new person has the knowledge and skills to fix these feet. It's not a rocket science fix here. A lot of foot has "escaped the house" and simply needs to be put back in order.
        Thanks. I feel hopeful, as this new person has fixed this issue with a horse my friend owns. Trying to stay calm, keep a steady head, and a critical eye.

        Comment


          #44
          Barefoot horses that don't get regular trims can be flsring chipping and cracking, and IME barefoot horses seem more susceptible to abscess or bruise. But I've never seen barefoot horses get the under run heels and long toes shown here, while I have seen similar on shod horses. So while barefoot isn't totally perfect and care free, some kinds of hoof alignment really does seem to me to be a pathology of shoeing. I don't mean that all shod horses have bad feet. Just that this particular kind of bad foot seems to only develop in shod horses

          Comment


            #45
            Ugh, totally going in the wrong direction. I hope you get this sorted out quickly. I have a horse that tends towards long toes and underrun heels. Good barefoot trimming kept this somewhat under control, but we never could quite get him stood up as much as he needed without making him sore - and then having his foot run out front within 3 weeks or so. I finally found a farrier who seems to have a good grasp on this issue. Horse is currently in front shoes and looks amazing, now four weeks out (being trimmed this week). The farrier was able to set his breakover back a bit with the shoes, and movement is better too. For my horse, shoes seem to be the answer, but it's really hard to find a farrier who is up to the task.

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by Ganesha View Post
              Correction without Wedging
              Someone mentioned that it looked like the angle could be fixed without wedges, by fixing the toes. I don't know if this is true, but I see the same thing.
              I've been looking for a diagram that Gene Ovnicek did showing how just backing up the toe and bringing the heels back in one trim dramatically brought the angle of P3 up and for the life of me cannot find it now. It's very eye opening. If I find it, I'll post it here. He has a lot of videos on YouTube so I'll see if maybe he has something there too.

              I hope the new farrier can help. I've been in your shoes and went through 4 farriers until I found my current one. I know how frustrating it is.



              Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
              Quiet Miracle 2010 16.1h OTTB Bay Gelding
              "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

              Comment


                #47
                Originally posted by stb View Post
                Ugh, totally going in the wrong direction. I hope you get this sorted out quickly. I have a horse that tends towards long toes and underrun heels. Good barefoot trimming kept this somewhat under control, but we never could quite get him stood up as much as he needed without making him sore - and then having his foot run out front within 3 weeks or so. I finally found a farrier who seems to have a good grasp on this issue. Horse is currently in front shoes and looks amazing, now four weeks out (being trimmed this week). The farrier was able to set his breakover back a bit with the shoes, and movement is better too. For my horse, shoes seem to be the answer, but it's really hard to find a farrier who is up to the task.
                My boy sounds like this. Natural Balance shoes set back properly to keep his breakover back solved this problem. Of course you don't need natural balance shoes to do this, they just make it easier.
                Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
                Quiet Miracle 2010 16.1h OTTB Bay Gelding
                "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

                Comment


                  #48
                  btw Ganesha I have the natural balance shoeing videos and I would be happy to lend them to you. This will show you what I'm talking about.
                  Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
                  Quiet Miracle 2010 16.1h OTTB Bay Gelding
                  "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

                  Comment


                    #49
                    JB- I could have worded it better, lol.

                    I totally missed that they were flip flops. I've been dying to try some of those. Still no mention if there was breakover enhanced?

                    I find that it's easier to manage a run forward foot with shoes than bare. Because I can put the breakover exactly where I want it.

                    My MO is this-

                    Determine COR
                    Determine edge of coffin bone, set breakover no more than 1/2" inch in front.
                    Trim to restore coffin bone balance as much as can be allowed. This trumps heel length on the first set. I feel that wedges add too many variables, so I tend to avoid them as much as possible and it works fine for me.
                    Make sure the widest point of the shoe exactly matches the COR.
                    Nail placement- no toe nails, the rear nail on the COR (depends on how the shoe is punched), or *gasp*, one nail width behind the COR. The middle and rear nails go in first, the front nails go in last, no toe nails.
                    RESET- Especially with the first few resets, there is no specific time frame. Three weeks is expected for the first and not considered too soon. I determine the time for a reset as when that rear nail moves forward of the COR by around 1/4". By then the hoof will have changed enough to allow for more correction and nothing has flung itself too far out the front.

                    I'm experimenting and watching the hoof wall/top of shoe interface- and that's where the NB shoes or other enhanced breakover shoes come in handy. So there's breakover on the bottom of the shoe, and where the hoof wall sits on the top of the shoe. You can set the shoe back, or you can use a shoe that has an enhanced breakover. Pros and cons to both- I find that using the enhanced breakover shoes create more concavity through the process but delay the overall bringing back of the toe, BUT, as long as that shoe is tethered to the middle of the foot, the extra length doesn't crush. Also useful at times is to put a slight float in the toe. Epona has a good case study on that one.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      My guess is the flip flops are to address heels that got more crushed from the other wedge. So, that doesn't seem like a bad idea.

                      Comment


                        #51
                        I used to have a brilliant ASB farrier that really thought outside the box on fixing issues. To fix crushed underrun heels he would use a wedge but cut out the section under the actual heel and use the pressure from the edges of the wedge to help spread the heels apart. The room kept the heel from getting the pressure and continuing the crushing process. Plus he could put break over where he wanted it with the shoe and slowly bring the toe back and restructure the hoof. Since we still had access to the heel with the cutaway, we would use a sanding block to just go over the heel a few times a week to encourage growth. Worked really well and the horses were never sore with the gradual process.

                        Flip flops can do the same but you would have to float the heel somehow to give them a chance to spread.
                        "Anyone who tries to make brownies without butter should be arrested." Ina Garten

                        Comment

                          Original Poster

                          #52
                          Originally posted by IPEsq View Post
                          My guess is the flip flops are to address heels that got more crushed from the other wedge. So, that doesn't seem like a bad idea.
                          I will say that his heels seem to have spread out a bit more in the back since wearing the flip flops, and contrary to what you might think, they have not trapped dirt etc. underneath. It all seems to fall out the back, with the help of the movement of the shoe, and miraculously things stay dry under there. It's an odd looking shoeing package (from underneath) but I think it is a pretty cool actually - I just don't have the right trim sitting on top of it.

                          Comment


                            #53
                            Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
                            Barefoot horses that don't get regular trims can be flsring chipping and cracking, and IME barefoot horses seem more susceptible to abscess or bruise. But I've never seen barefoot horses get the under run heels and long toes shown here, while I have seen similar on shod horses. So while barefoot isn't totally perfect and care free, some kinds of hoof alignment really does seem to me to be a pathology of shoeing. I don't mean that all shod horses have bad feet. Just that this particular kind of bad foot seems to only develop in shod horses
                            Sadly, there are lots of barefoot horses with trims this bad

                            The only pathologies resulting from shoeing are incorrect shoeing, and that's usually on top of incorrect trimming.
                            Check 11a/b
                            http://barefoothorse.com/barefoot_PhotoGallery2.html

                            Here's one from an Aussie site
                            http://www.horsesenseaustralia.com/u...064915.jpg?594

                            The shoes just tend to allow things to exacerbate as the cycle goes on, since the foot can't wear. So starting with things too long already, and 4-6-8 weeks later, they're even longer with more and bigger issues. But that's not just because they had shoes on - shoes were set at the end of already long toes, so they were poorly applied shoes on top of a poorly done trim.
                            ______________________________
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                            Comment


                              #54
                              I'm not a farrier, nor do I play one on TV. Like many have said, I can see a hoof I don't like, but I wouldn't know how to fix it technically. For those of you who are much more knowledgeable than I, I'm curious about something. If the farrier responsible for the original photo had set the shoe back some so that the heel had somewhere to "drop" to and the toe naturally wore more, would that have fixed the issues in a few shoeing cycles? when i saw that hoof that was what my gut told me would be better, but I have no idea if that is correct.

                              thanks. Always learning on this forum. . .

                              Comment


                                #55
                                Originally posted by EmilyM View Post
                                If the farrier responsible for the original photo had set the shoe back some so that the heel had somewhere to "drop" to and the toe naturally wore more, would that have fixed the issues in a few shoeing cycles? when i saw that hoof that was what my gut told me would be better, but I have no idea if that is correct.

                                thanks. Always learning on this forum. . .
                                Yes, sort of

                                The whole foot was left too long - long toes, long heels. Compounding that is the shoe being set at the end of that long toe. I'm sure it did line up with where the heels were, as well, which was equally as bad. But even if the shoe had been set back, the heels would have still been improperly trimmed.

                                If the foot had been trimmed correctly - heels rasped back where the belonged (entirely possible in all but a few cases), which would have dropped them down a little as well, and the toe trimmed back as far as it could be, then the shoe may still have needed to be set back some for the breakover at the toe, maybe longer for the heels as well.

                                Leaving toe that couldn't be trimmed, hanging over the edge of a shoe set back, and beveling the to a little, relative to the shoe, would have allowed some natural wear (good) and even better, kept leverage off it which would then allow new growth to come in tighter.


                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                Comment

                                  Original Poster

                                  #56
                                  Originally posted by Kolsh View Post
                                  JB- I could have worded it better, lol.

                                  I totally missed that they were flip flops. I've been dying to try some of those. Still no mention if there was breakover enhanced?
                                  Kolsh, yes, the toes are beveled on leading edge.

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by Ganesha View Post

                                    Here's a pic
                                    https://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2017/0...x-florida.html

                                    It is a pad with a recessed area in the front/toe area that half a shoe fits in. The back part is not attached to the hoof - so it flaps a bit. It allows the heels to flex and move. A wedged flip flip is just higher in the back like a normal wedge pad.

                                    Thanks, appreciate the new-to-me info in that article.
                                    "When I look back on my life, the times I have been stingy or unappreciative haunt me. I don't regret one instance of generosity." --PeteyPie

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      Thanks JB

                                      Comment

                                        Original Poster

                                        #59
                                        Update - here is his foot (without shoe) after the first trim by new farrier.

                                        Do you think we're headed in the right direction? Is this better than the three feet I posted in my original post?

                                        To my eye, the HPA alignment is at least no worse than when he was wedged shoes/pads.
                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	change.jpg Views:	1 Size:	15.0 KB ID:	9850206

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          Definite improvement... yes you are headed in the right direction. Have you noticed any changes in your horse, good or bad?

                                          I can't tell but is the horse wearing shoes? If so I would still like to see more heel support.
                                          Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
                                          Quiet Miracle 2010 16.1h OTTB Bay Gelding
                                          "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

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