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Critique this foot - Early Update Posted with Dates etc

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    #21
    They all suck.
    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
    Quiet Miracle 2010 16.1h OTTB Bay Gelding
    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

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      Original Poster

      #22
      Popping in to thank everyone for their comments, especially the ones that tried to guess the chronological order of the pics. It is very hard for me not to chip in and respond with info - however, I want to get people's reactions without the interference of my own input, explanations, excuses, etc.

      Since I've gotten quite a few responses already, I'll jump in Thursday night to give the date order and a little info.

      This is all very helpful.

      Comment


        #23
        My guess, based solely on nail holes is a chronological order of bottom, top, middle.

        IMO, there is no real improvement in any of them. Overall detriment to the horse, the bottom and top are just about equal. The HPA is hard to see without the cannon in the pic and I think the top pic would look *more* aligned with a vertical cannon but more isn't enough. The shoe is ahead of the COR, in a wet environment I'd not be surprised to see prolapsing of the frog, along with the upper body strains of a negative HPA. The bottom pic has an improvement of the HPA via wedge but not hoof capsule, but the shoe once again is too far forward and not enough under the cannon. The heels are being crushed and the foot is going to fling from length.

        The middle is the most interesting to me and IMO the most educated approach. An attempt to meet HPA, COR is quite close, heels are supported. BUT, the trim is off and I can't see the breakover. Of the three this one shows the most potential for improvement, but it could also seriously backfire. Kudos to the confidence of using two nails. None would be my approach, but I am also not holding the foot. I do have to say that at times its an advantage to not just set the shoe back and instead address breakover with the mechanics of the shoe instead.

        I would hazard a bit of a guess that this hoof isn't just migrated forward with a negative P3, I'd throw a little rotation onto the pile as well. Tricky.
        Last edited by Kolsch; Jun. 27, 2017, 12:35 PM.

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          #24
          I hope the follow-up post shows the feet a year later in a beautiful gravel crunching barefoot trim with short toes and correct heels! or at least in correct balance in shoes.

          And this is actually a serious question not snark: what is the idea behind putting wedges on under run heels? Wouldn't they just crush the heels more?

          Comment


            #25
            Originally posted by Kolsch View Post
            I would hazard a bit of a guess that this hoof isn't just migrated forward with a negative P3, I'd throw a little rotation onto the pile as well. Tricky.
            Rotation is generally used in the context of rotating forward, with the toe pointing down.

            By definition, a negative P3 means the toe is pointing up (which is really the heel having migrated down).

            So on a technical basis, there IS rotation, but it's in the backwards direction, heel down. There can't be both rotation in the usual sense (toe down) and a negative P3.

            I do agree that it's all but guaranteed to have a negative P3 in that bullnose picture. That said, I've seen the rads of 1 horse who I'd have sworn was fairly significantly negative. 2-3* maybe, and not only was he not negative, he was only a bit low - about 1* IIRC.

            Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
            And this is actually a serious question not snark: what is the idea behind putting wedges on under run heels? Wouldn't they just crush the heels more?
            Without knowing how long since the feet were trimmed, it's really hard to judge what's going on, other than yes there are wedges, and yes the heels are crushed and underrun lol

            It's a sad reality that too many farriers simply look at a broken back HPA and think "I need to fix that angle" so they do it by slapping a wedge on, period. That's a bandaid, and will absolutely make the crushing worse. As well, wedges, even when used for a good reason, are all but guaranteed to crush heels when used for long enough periods of time, so they should be viewed as short-term support while the rest of the foot is being sorted out.

            If this is a fresh trim, it's among the worst because the toes are way too long, heels are way too long and underrun and crushed, and the wedge will make it all even worse by the end of the cycle. If this is at the end of a cycle, it's still not good since there's just SO much foot, which either says not enough was taken off the last time, or the cycle is way too long.

            Ganesha can you at least tell us where in the trim cycle each of the feet/pics are? They're all in need of a trim as they stand, but it makes a difference in critiques and guesses whether they were done 1-3 weeks ago, or 8 weeks ago.
            Last edited by JB; Jun. 27, 2017, 02:41 PM.
            ______________________________
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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              Original Poster

              #26
              JB, I'll see if I can find the exact time elapsed since trim for each, but I am fairly certain no image is more than 5 weeks post trim.

              Glad to see you here, by the way.

              Comment


                #27
                JB, you are correct about the rotation general used to denote a pointing down and that's how I mean it here. Visually on a rad, as in angle wise, one cancels the other out to an extent but both are there. And IMO that's *sometimes* why you see the ones that you think are so negative, but are not. Sole depth, distance between dorsal coffin bone and hoof wall... check those out on the rads, not just the P3 plane. And also IMO it *sometimes* explains why some of these just don't have the sole depth in the toe (retained to be removed) that one woulde expect.




                Comment


                  #28
                  Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

                  And this is actually a serious question not snark: what is the idea behind putting wedges on under run heels? Wouldn't they just crush the heels more?
                  Part of *a* theory is of perfusion. A visual often given is of a hoof standing on a balloon- if you push down on any one area of the hoof it forces the air of the balloon to the other side, just as it forces the blood away in the hoof capsule which in theory retards sole growth. So, the theory is to even out the pressure to promote even sole depth. But then obviously, too much of a good thing isn't a good thing- balloon squishes again. There's also another theory as to why wedging doesn't work- the bone and tendon load theory- which relies on DDFT tension as a explanation as to the cause of low heels (low heels=low tension) and why we don't want to wedge them. I think that they're both right.

                  Comment

                    Original Poster

                    #29
                    Trim Cycle info for pics:

                    Top: 4 days post trim
                    Middle: 20 days post trim
                    Bottom: 4 days post trim

                    Horse gets done on a 4/5 week cycle.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      I am just subscribing because I want read what people have to say. I am a wimp and not going to guess.

                      Comment

                        Original Poster

                        #31
                        Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                        I am just subscribing because I want read what people have to say. I am a wimp and not going to guess.
                        Thanks for following this, Trubandloki. I hope you'll change your mind and share your impression(s). I'm not setting this up to see who can guess the correct order, but I want to know what order the appears to be assuming someone had the intention to improve the foot.

                        I want to gather reactions from horse people who aren't emotionally engaged in this particular story (which is why I'm refraining from too much background info now), and in a way that doesn't influence people's responses too much.

                        I've read many of your posts on COTH and would value anything you have to say.

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Originally posted by Kolsch View Post
                          JB, you are correct about the rotation general used to denote a pointing down and that's how I mean it here. Visually on a rad, as in angle wise, one cancels the other out to an extent but both are there. And IMO that's *sometimes* why you see the ones that you think are so negative, but are not. Sole depth, distance between dorsal coffin bone and hoof wall... check those out on the rads, not just the P3 plane. And also IMO it *sometimes* explains why some of these just don't have the sole depth in the toe (retained to be removed) that one woulde expect.



                          I'm sorry, you lost me lol! Are you saying sinking? I'm not understanding how both rotations can be there. The only way I can see them both being there and cancelling each other out is if it's a sinker, and I don't see anything to indicate that.

                          I don't necessarily expect a negative P3 horse to have excess sole depth at the toe. Maybe excess toe wall height. But often it's simply a lack of support in the back, usually from long-term crushed heels.

                          Originally posted by Ganesha View Post
                          Trim Cycle info for pics:

                          Top: 4 days post trim
                          Middle: 20 days post trim
                          Bottom: 4 days post trim

                          Horse gets done on a 4/5 week cycle.
                          That's bad. I'm still not sure on the order LOL I'm just not sure if things went from bad to worse, or worse to "at least someone recognized something's wrong but still doesn't know how to fix it"

                          4 days post trim for the wedged bottom pic is just terrible No excuse for any of that.

                          3 weeks post trim for the middle bullnose pic is awful as well - the amount of foot there didn't grow in 3 weeks, unless maybe the horse was trying to grow something, anything, as a way of trying to sort out whatever's going on. Unlikely, not probable, but possible. Maybe lol

                          4 days post trim for the top pic is just unacceptable all around, even if it is the best of the worst.
                          ______________________________
                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                            #33
                            I can't make a decision on the chronology, but I don't like any of them.

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Originally posted by JB View Post
                              I'm sorry, you lost me lol! Are you saying sinking? I'm not understanding how both rotations can be there. The only way I can see them both being there and cancelling each other out is if it's a sinker, and I don't see anything to indicate that.

                              I don't necessarily expect a negative P3 horse to have excess sole depth at the toe. Maybe excess toe wall height. But often it's simply a lack of support in the back, usually from long-term crushed heels.
                              Sorry! Go look at a bunch of rads.... There are -P3's that remain fairly tight and even with the dorsal wall. There are -P3's that show a larger distance between the top of the coffin bone and the hoof wall than the bottom of the coffin bone and the hoof wall. And then there will be -P3's that show a larger distance between the bottom of the coffin bone and the hoof wall than the the top of the coffin bone the hoof wall.

                              (and as always keep in mind any odd rasping)


                              Comment


                                #35
                                Ohhhh I get what you're talking about now, thanks! Yes, that makes sense. I kept thinking rotation relative to bony position, rather than relative to the hoof wall. That definitely explains -P3s that don't bullnose (even spacing with the wall), even though there are generally other signs.

                                Now I need to go back and look at that "should be negative but isn't" xray and look at that aspect.
                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  Oldest: Middle

                                  Medium: Bottom

                                  Newest: Top

                                  None is ideal, but may be addressing specific issues/rads. Would love to see corresponding rads of each.

                                  Besides looking at heels, bullnose, wedges and hairline, I am sleuthing for clues such as the leg being all trimmed up, in the bottom photo.

                                  I look forward to hearing the deets. The top is the least-offensive, in my inexperienced opinion.
                                  "When I look back on my life, the times I have been stingy or unappreciative haunt me. I don't regret one instance of generosity." --PeteyPie

                                  Comment

                                    Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Ok, I'm posting the answers early. I'll try to fill in the facts based on questions posted -

                                    The chronological order is:
                                    Top is first: June 2016
                                    Bottom is second: August 2016
                                    Middle is current: June 2017

                                    How many Farriers?
                                    Three different Farriers

                                    Shoe types
                                    Top first is an aluminum wedge with a slightly beveled toe
                                    Bottom is a steel shoe, with wedge pad
                                    Middle (current) is a wedge flip flop, which is why there are only two nails, and why you see much more support extending to the back

                                    Why wedges?
                                    The idea was that in removing heel to bring it back, it would exacerbate the broken back angle, so the wedge was to restore the angle / HPA axis.

                                    The middle shot with bull nosing
                                    The bull nosing is accentuated by rasping of the front of the foot in an attempt to respond to my request to do something about the toes.

                                    Hind Feet
                                    Not that they were a topic on the thread, but they are similar (long toe, crushed heel, broken back HPA). They were in regular flat steel shoes but I pulled the back shoes a couple of months ago and saw an immediate improvement (immediate meaning same day). They are looking better, I think mostly because he's been able to chip away the excess on his own between trims, taking his feet in a better direction.

                                    Plan going forward
                                    I have found someone who has helped a friend's horse with similar problems by transitioning the horse to a glue on shoe, then to barefoot. I'm making an appointment this week. That horse is doing very well, not just in her feet, but in her body. I hope, as someone mentioned, to post an update within a year of showing short-toed. balanced, rock crunching feet bare feet.

                                    Correction without Wedging
                                    Someone mentioned that it looked like the angle could be fixed without wedges, by fixing the toes. I don't know if this is true, but I see the same thing.

                                    I think that covers most of the questions. This was very useful to me both emotionally (courage to take a new direction) and intellectually.


                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      I have seen feet like this have really positive results within 2-3 trims with the horse being barefoot. For various reasons it can be harder for certain farriers* to get the toe back and heels to grow with shoes on. I think your plan of going barefoot, even if just for a few months to get this under control, is a positive one. Some farriers may even want you to rasp the toe in between trims for even faster results but discuss this with your farrier because each case is different.

                                      *There are excellent farriers out there that can fix this with shoes, but I think it takes a farrier with many years of experience to get to that point.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by Ganesha View Post
                                        Ok, I'm posting the answers early. I'll try to fill in the facts based on questions posted -

                                        The chronological order is:
                                        Top is first: June 2016
                                        Bottom is second: August 2016
                                        Middle is current: June 2017
                                        Well doesn't that just bite Out of the frying pan into the fire

                                        Why wedges?
                                        The idea was that in removing heel to bring it back, it would exacerbate the broken back angle, so the wedge was to restore the angle / HPA axis.
                                        The idea was right, but incomplete in part, and incorrect in part.

                                        The angle would have been made worse because there was little to no toe length taken off. You can't address just underrun heels without addressing the long toes which helped pull them forward. It doesn't work.

                                        But even when there is so much horizontal toe length that you cannot bring that toe back where it belongs without cutting into live tissue, therefore you can't fully correct the HPA, the wedges are then used to make that final correction.

                                        It's not a heel issue, as trimming those underrun heels, which were crushed, but not as bad as some, would have brought them way back (not done) and would not have lowered the heels a great deal. The shoe should have been set back so the breakover was put where it belonged (since the toes likely couldn't be trimmed back far enough) and a wedge used of that didn't align things.

                                        The middle shot with bull nosing
                                        The bull nosing is accentuated by rasping of the front of the foot in an attempt to respond to my request to do something about the toes.[/quote]
                                        Ok, I can buy that. That's good - at least there's not that deformity to correct! But good grief...

                                        Hind Feet
                                        Not that they were a topic on the thread, but they are similar (long toe, crushed heel, broken back HPA). They were in regular flat steel shoes but I pulled the back shoes a couple of months ago and saw an immediate improvement (immediate meaning same day). They are looking better, I think mostly because he's been able to chip away the excess on his own between trims, taking his feet in a better direction.
                                        That's one way LOL If the hoof material is soft and/or thin enough, a horse will self-trim faster. Feet that are thicker-walled and harder will frequently just continue to grow longer - the curse of good feet lol

                                        Plan going forward
                                        I have found someone who has helped a friend's horse with similar problems by transitioning the horse to a glue on shoe, then to barefoot. I'm making an appointment this week. That horse is doing very well, not just in her feet, but in her body. I hope, as someone mentioned, to post an update within a year of showing short-toed. balanced, rock crunching feet bare feet.
                                        As long as you realize this isn't an orthotic issue, it's a trimming issue. I don't see any reason why a competent farrier can't fix these feet with shoes. 1 good trim, with the proper shoe that has the breakover set back, and/or the entire shoe set back, and then a wedge applied if necessary to finish the alignment, and the horse should immediately feel better. I don't see anything to drastic that alignment couldn't happen in 1 trim.

                                        Of course, it's going to take a full growth cycle for all that flare to grow out, so the foot will still look "wrong" for a while.

                                        Correction without Wedging
                                        Someone mentioned that it looked like the angle could be fixed without wedges, by fixing the toes. I don't know if this is true, but I see the same thing.
                                        Yes, it entirely depends on what's seen on the bottom of the foot. There may simply be too much forward flare to remove enough horizontal length, to allow the foot to stand up and fully align properly. If so, a wedge may well be needed, but IMHO based on what I see, not more than 1, maybe 2 cycles.

                                        I think that covers most of the questions. This was very useful to me both emotionally (courage to take a new direction) and intellectually.
                                        I commend your bravery! I hope this new person has the knowledge and skills to fix these feet. It's not a rocket science fix here. A lot of foot has "escaped the house" and simply needs to be put back in order.

                                        ______________________________
                                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          Originally posted by StormyDay View Post
                                          I have seen feet like this have really positive results within 2-3 trims with the horse being barefoot. For various reasons it can be harder for certain farriers* to get the toe back and heels to grow with shoes on. I think your plan of going barefoot, even if just for a few months to get this under control, is a positive one. Some farriers may even want you to rasp the toe in between trims for even faster results but discuss this with your farrier because each case is different.

                                          *There are excellent farriers out there that can fix this with shoes, but I think it takes a farrier with many years of experience to get to that point.
                                          I agree this can be fixed barefoot. If the toes can't be brought back enough to stand the foot up, then this can be fixed faster with shoes and a wedge, IMHO. The difference may only be a couple of trim cycles, so I don't mean to imply that shoes could fix this in 1 cycle and barefoot would take 6 months. I think the horse's comfort has to be taken into account too. The longer the HPA is broken back, the more risk there is for developing issues that can't be undone. The more sore the horse currently is, the more urgent (IMHO) it is to get things aligned immediately, and the only way to do that might be with shoes. Without seeing the bottom of the foot it's hard to know, and without seeing the full trim (minus rolling the walls, just in case shoes need to go on) it's too hard to know how close to alignment the right trim would get things.

                                          I've personally done something just like this. The real JB had a similar foot setup, wedges included. We were moving, and I couldn't find a farrier I trusted to come to me, and I'd wanted to take him barefoot anyway, and my other horse was already barefoot. A trimmer came, removed the shoes, did a fairly complete trim (more than she'd ideally do, but she was only here from Ga every 6 weeks and really couldn't do a partial trim and come back in 2 weeks). He had on 2* wedge shoes, very crushed/underrrun heels, and a very long toe. But her trim all but aligned him perfectly. If a wedge had to be used to make it perfect, it would have been maybe 1/2*, it was so slight.

                                          I swiped his heels every few days to keep them from following their crushed pattern, rolled the toes weekly or so, and while it wasn't ideal, her every 6 weeks here made progress and she taught me to trim, to the point I was trimming on my own with her checking on him every 6 weeks.

                                          So you'd be amazed what a proper trim on feet even as bad as these can do in terms of standing the foot up.
                                          ______________________________
                                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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