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Chronic Thrush..can I pick the COTHers brain

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  • Chronic Thrush..can I pick the COTHers brain

    Before I start...vet and farrier WILL be contacted tomorrow. Of course this shows up on a weekend.

    But I need to pick some of your brains...Thrush is something new to me.

    Eqtrainer, I hope you will jump in this conversation because it was you, who was first to suggest that thrush could possibly be the culprit all along to this horse's lameness problems..and I think you are absolutely correct in your assesment.

    Background....Horse given to me in February..chronic lameness, owner off to grad school...so she gives him to me.

    Eqtrainer initally came out, looked at him/trimmed him and found thrush..which I immedately jumped on with Thrushbuster (I know this is a controversial method, but it was what was recommended to me) (Eq...hoping you can remember if this new scenerio fits what you saw in the beginning).

    My farrier came out..a week or two later..looked at xrays, we shot more xrays....by this time, thrush was under control..so, he is more concerned about mechanical issues. Kudos to farrier...he gets horse sound within 6 weeks of shoeing changes.

    Horse going sound..all is well. We hit a few bumps along the way...back feet ouchy, so we add hind shoes...all goes well again.

    We use xrays for two more shoeings...so, we have the mechanical issues under control.

    Last shoeing...right front (which had, had a sheered P3 from horse previously refusing to load heel) is much improved..McClain pad can no longer be used because it wedges him too much....doesn't need a wedge on that foot..but the left does still need a 2 degree wedge. So, we decide to use a pour in pad on the right for support, so we don't just drop him immediately. Horse is moving amazingly well...but it's time to have hocks checked, because now that he's back in a work program, they are looking sore (he stood still in a stall for over a year). Vet comes out..I ask him to check everything. Vet pops out pour in pad...at the time, I was really worried about this..but in hindsight, thank god he took the pour in pad out. Vet notices that he still isn't loading the right heel as much as he wants...so we do injections on hocks and right front fetlock. Horse gets week off. Should also mention that vet did hoof test horse all the way around and no signs of ouchy horse.

    Saturday is on the buckle day...I can tell at the walk he is NQR...so I hold my breath when I ask him to trot...DEAD, HEAD BOBBING LAME. I felt like sobbing. Take him in, notice that he has some swelling in the right front ankle, but no heat.

    BO owns a Game Day system, so we use cold compression on the ankle...swelling immediately goes down. We think either he tweaked it, or he's foot sore since he's missing the pad.

    I go to the tack store..buy Magic Cushion.

    Come to the barn today...pack with the MC...swelling is much better, but I wrap. I get on him just to see if he is better...No..no improvement. Now, I'm really worried.

    Go back in barn, untack..he doesnt act ouchy with hooftesters..so I really start prodding....then finally when I squeeze the frog..I see the black oozy mess.

    I soak him, use thrushbuster, and he has the magic cushion on. I check his feet..they are cool, no pulse...we seem to be okay in that aspect. BO puts standing wrap on and we leave in stall. She feels that the farrier will need to put bonding on the back of the hoof at the heel, because the outer wall looks compromised/breakage. (need sobbing icon)

    He seemed comfortable when I left..eating hay, putting weight down on the heel..no heat..feet cool to touch.

    But I'm worried about just how bad this is. Now I'm also wondering if this has been part of this horse's lameness issue (as Eqtrainer suspected) from the get go. He has been at many barns where stalls weren't bedded well, and he would be standing in pee/manure (I didn't own him at the time)...Once a horse shows lameness from thrush....is it fixable? And how does the vet diagnose how bad it is/what's been compromised. Do they ultrasound or do you have to have an MRI?

    Since he has been sound for three months and now lame again due to a raging thrush infection....is there a good chance that I have caught it in time? It had to have blown up this week. I pick and clean feet daily..I do not know how I missed this. But you really had to prod the frog to get any visual signs.

    Have any of you dealt with chronic/severe thrush and have suggestions. If the other foot has to have a pad....can I put the Hoof Saver gel in that pad to protect it....I'm worried now that it may be in that foot as well (although he is only lame on the right front). My BO says that pour in pads hold in moisture and that was probably the reason that it blew up.

  • #2
    Dry Cow works wonders and gets in the cracks!
    "I don't know what your generation's fascination is with documenting your every thought... but I can assure you, they're not all diamonds." Mr. G

    Comment


    • #3
      A product called "Today" for mastitis works very well also.

      I also rotate between diluted bleach, iodine, tea tree oil, and "The Sauce."
      Laurie Higgins
      www.coreconnexxions.com
      ________________
      "Expectation is premeditated disappointment."

      Comment


      • #4
        Question for you -- does your horse have a crevice/crack between the heel BULBS? And yes -- pads are not going to help any thrush issues. Thrush is an anaerobic bacteria - a bacteria that thrives in a dark, moist, non-aerated area. Pads will hold in moisture AND prevent the hoof from getting much air to it.

        Many suggest the use of "sugardyne" or other thrush treatment that will fight against bacteria but don't consider fungus. Fungus THRIVES on dead Thrush and sugars! So, if treating with sugardyne or merely an antibacterial treatment but NOT treating with something to combat fungus then yeast will proliferate on the dead thrush and the sugar (as well as the moist, anaerobic conditions).

        Yeast presents itself with a whitish exudate that has the texture of cheesy material and smells somewhat cheesy unlike Thrush which presents as a black, tar-like substance and REEKS! Yeast is most commonly found in the back of the collateral grooves and, more favorably, in the 'crevice' between the heel bulbs that is formed from contracted hooves/

        "Tomorrow" dry cow mastitis is a great way to take care of straight thrush but it won't address any yeast/fungus issues. Also, need to add that fungus issues not only need to be addressed topically but systemically, as well.

        So, check it out -- see if you think you might have a fungus problem as well.
        --Gwen <><
        "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
        http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Today & Dry Cow are the same thing.
          "I don't know what your generation's fascination is with documenting your every thought... but I can assure you, they're not all diamonds." Mr. G

          Comment


          • #6
            "Tomorrow" is the dry cow mastitis treatment and is cephapirin benzathine.
            "Today" is the lactating mastitis treatment and is cephapirin sodium.

            I've used "Tomorrow" and that is the one that is generally suggested for use on Thrush in equine hooves.

            Both are broad-spectrum antibiotics exhibiting excellent efficacy against gram-positive pathogens.
            --Gwen <><
            "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
            http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Our mare developed thrush in between the heel bulbs. We used White Lightning and it worked wonders. I have also had good luck with sugardyne.
              I hope everything works out ok with your horse.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by caballus View Post
                Question for you -- does your horse have a crevice/crack between the heel BULBS? And yes -- pads are not going to help any thrush issues. Thrush is an anaerobic bacteria - a bacteria that thrives in a dark, moist, non-aerated area. Pads will hold in moisture AND prevent the hoof from getting much air to it.

                Many suggest the use of "sugardyne" or other thrush treatment that will fight against bacteria but don't consider fungus. Fungus THRIVES on dead Thrush and sugars! So, if treating with sugardyne or merely an antibacterial treatment but NOT treating with something to combat fungus then yeast will proliferate on the dead thrush and the sugar (as well as the moist, anaerobic conditions).

                Yeast presents itself with a whitish exudate that has the texture of cheesy material and smells somewhat cheesy unlike Thrush which presents as a black, tar-like substance and REEKS! Yeast is most commonly found in the back of the collateral grooves and, more favorably, in the 'crevice' between the heel bulbs that is formed from contracted hooves/

                "Tomorrow" dry cow mastitis is a great way to take care of straight thrush but it won't address any yeast/fungus issues. Also, need to add that fungus issues not only need to be addressed topically but systemically, as well.

                So, check it out -- see if you think you might have a fungus problem as well.


                DITTO.

                My mare always had crevices between the bulbs on ALL 4 feet. I just thought it was normal, the way a hoof should be. Fast forward 4 years, move to my own place, get an amazing new farrier, and find out that no, it ISNT normal and that along with thrush/yeast, the actual trim of the foot affects this too.

                Ok, farrier is great and gets the feet going in the right direction. I read on here and on horseshoes.com about how yeast feeds on dead thrush and I stopped using Thrushbuster and switched to hydrogen peroxide (followed advice on horseshoes.com) by flushing the sulcus with a monoject syringe, and then followed that with flushing with apple cider vinegar with the mother (so organic) to make sure all of the dead stuff from the hydrogen peroxide was out.

                I did this daily for about 2-3 weeks. Along with "super farrier", all of a sudden, my horse had no crevices on any of her feet. I was floored. My farrier kept insisting that we would get her there but I just didnt believe it. She had been like this for over 4 years with me and lord knows how long beforethat.

                I still battle with her right front as that is her upright, narrow hoof. I have used Thrush Magic before, which is a paste, and it kills thrush as well as having a fungicide to kill yeast and other yummy bugs in there, plus it wont wash out with water/urine.

                I read on here about a mixture of athletes foot cream, desitin diapar rash cream, and triple antibiotic ointment to use. LONG story short, we have her in heart bars right now after the insanely wet winter and it makes it very hard for me to clean the frog. After just one shoeing, the right front had thrush and was starting to get a crevice again. I was rinsing with iodine and I started using the mixture and just had her feet done today and farrier says "whatever you are doing, keep doing it, because the stuff is gone and her frog looks great". So yay.

                But for your original question, yes, I do believe that chronic thrush and other infections in the feet can make them lame and know it does b/c my mare would hoof test positive on the right front when the thrush/yeast infection was present.

                I hope after all of the work, time, and money you have put into this horse that the answer is as "simple" as thrush/yeast. Luckily, with work and diligence, it can go away.

                Thats just my personal experience and my so-not-a-professional-opinion!

                Also, can I just offer a hug? Sounds like you really need one! ***HUG***
                ~~~~~~~~~

                Member of the ILMD[FN]HP Clique, The Florida Clique, OMGiH I loff my mares, and the Bareback Riders clique!

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am quite familiar with this- my guy is prone to getting really deep heel clefts and they get thrushy. I have found that when it is bad, the best way to do it is to clean the hoof very thoroughly with nolvasan, and run gauze soaked with the nolvasan solution through the heel bulbs (like flossing teeth) so that it gets way down in there. Rinse thoroughly, apply tomorrow mastitis ointment, and keep the horse in a DRY ENVIRONMENT as much as is possible. Koppertox is good at keeping the whole deal sealed off, but I would not put it on a damp hoof. I have, however, been known to keep it in a spray bottle and spraying the frogs to provide an anti-ick barrier when I know the horse is going to be in a moist/dirty environment (turnout, trailer rides, wet footing) The most important ingredient though is going to be getting those heels to spread out and open up so that air is consistently in there. Air will keep it from getting started in the first place. That is a farrier/trimmer issue, and that is what's going to keep it from coming back.
                  -Grace

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Yes...I need lots of hugs..thank you. One was diagnosed with DSLD, this boy has chronic thrush, and the only sound one that I have..wants to go be someone's hunter/not a dressage horse.

                    Funny....his right front is narrow and upright as well...although, it is trying desperately to look like the left front...so I'm hoping with time, good trims, and patience..it will look like a normal foot.

                    I haven't seen anything white/cheesy...just black tar oozing out of the frog. I always thought thrush would knock you backwards with the smell..but I had to get right down to the foot with my nose before I smelled anything. Just wasn't what I had expected. BO took one look at it and said..THIS is why he is lame.

                    I've already been researching the Tomorrow products. Did lots of research on here and Youtube. And I have to say...Youtube has lots of farrier videos..and it was watching that farrier video last night that got me looking in the right place for the nasty thrush.

                    I am putting a call into vet/farrier first thing in the AM....I guess first thing is to get farrier out and see what needs to be done as far as cutting out dead tissue/and see if we need to bond the hoofwall.

                    Keep your fingers crossed....he is the nicest horse I have ever owned in my life and just an absolute Saint. He started getting nippy/pissey in the crossties two days ago...I thought it was due to bordem...now I think I know that this is his way of saying...Hey, I hurt...you need to do something about it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I can't remember the brand of cow mastitis medicine I used, but I will 3rd or 4th that it is amazing stuff.

                      I would put it in my horses heel bulb then pack with cotton. In about two weeks no more crack in heel bulb! Amazing stuff!
                      I love cats, I love every single cat....
                      So anyway I am a cat lover
                      And I love to run.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by TheOrangeOne View Post
                        I am quite familiar with this- my guy is prone to getting really deep heel clefts and they get thrushy. I have found that when it is bad, the best way to do it is to clean the hoof very thoroughly with nolvasan, and run gauze soaked with the nolvasan solution through the heel bulbs (like flossing teeth) so that it gets way down in there. Rinse thoroughly, apply tomorrow mastitis ointment, and keep the horse in a DRY ENVIRONMENT as much as is possible. Koppertox is good at keeping the whole deal sealed off, but I would not put it on a damp hoof. I have, however, been known to keep it in a spray bottle and spraying the frogs to provide an anti-ick barrier when I know the horse is going to be in a moist/dirty environment (turnout, trailer rides, wet footing) The most important ingredient though is going to be getting those heels to spread out and open up so that air is consistently in there. Air will keep it from getting started in the first place. That is a farrier/trimmer issue, and that is what's going to keep it from coming back.
                        Ah, interesting point...when my farrier first started shoeing this horse in March....his heels were so contracted that he couldn't get 2 fingers on the frog...now, we have 2 fingers width on the left and almost there on the right...so thank goodness, the heels are starting to spread.

                        Another question...can this crap lay dormant up in their feet until the right opportunity comes along to wake up.

                        I keep a seperate hoof pick for all three horses...and a can of Lyesol spray...I've always sprayed his hoof pick with the Lyesol after I'm done with it.

                        Bless you guys for being so helpful....I've been worried about this all day long.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No problem, when I found out THRUSH was making my horse lame I think I spent a good hour bawling hysterically while I scrubbed his feet with orvus or something and apologizing to him for allowing such a thing to happen. It's a tough thing to deal with, and when it's down in that cleft, if you are not looking for it, you're not going to see it. I'm no expert, but I don't think it stays in their feet as much as it stays in the soil, which is why you have to just make sure the environment won't let it take hold- it will inevitably make contact, you just have to keep it from sticking and growing.
                          -Grace

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I wouldn't panic and call the vet and farrier for a case of thrush lameness. There isn't much the vet can do and dead tissue doesn't really need to be cut out as much as the black tar needs to be completely removed from the foot. This is something you can do yourself. Then use Tomorrow/Dry Cow and pack with gauze. My horse was lame from thrush in both back feet two weeks ago. He was 90% improved in 24 hours and 100% in three days. I felt horrible I missed it, but we were having some flooding issues and my horse has a frog shape that anerobic bacteria thrives in.

                            The key is getting the nasty black stuff out so the bacteria doesn't spread. Then treating with a topical antibacterial. Products like thrush buster are not antibacteria and work by drying/"killing" the tissue to kill of thrush as a side effect. When the horse is lame from thrush DON'T use products that will further damage the tissues.

                            And, yes bad thrush can cause swelling in the legs but will not be accompanied with heat in the leg.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              So puzzled at your characterization of Thrushbuster as "controversial."

                              It's "expensive." But it works. Deep clefts will always tend to collect organisms that cause thrush. I always keep that little blue bottle on hand and make a point of using it on such feet as a preventive--just a few drops per week can do that job.

                              Sugardine is good as far as it goes, but while it destroys some organisms it can allow some others to thrive. Alternating with the T'buster has worked well for me in some cases (such as when I've used the last of the Thrushbuster).

                              While it can be messy, and smelly, it isn't always so. And anytime you are fighting flareups of thrush, please remember that in addition to foot care, it's just as important to keep the environment you place the foot in as clean as possible--keep a clean stall, and limit access to wet, dirty ground as much as practical.

                              It sounds like you have gotten very focused on your horse's feet as a possible cause of lameness--but with other issues higher up that have caused you to resort to joint injections, I'd be very surprised if thrush is a primary cause of his soreness. Removing it from the equation by using Thrushbuster (or another remedy, if you happen to find anything as effective, which I have yet to do) will allow you to focus on the big picture and get to the root of the problem.
                              Inner Bay Equestrian
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                              KERx

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                              • #16
                                I have an elderly retired girl who had major chronic thrush. We used lots of different things including making sure her enviroment was clean and dry and still couldn't clear it up. Then I started squirting salt water into the clefts and it cleared up.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I've been using Cavalor's Dry Feet and it did wonders!
                                  Actually, it did so good that I now had to put Forshner's to help moisture my mare's front hooves back!!! (I went a bit crazy here and so they are now to dry and hard...which is not any better...)
                                  Farrier said hind hooves were just perfect! (I can still see some trush spots so I'll spray some stuff once or twice a week just in case!!!)
                                  ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                                  Originally posted by LauraKY
                                  I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                                  HORSING mobile training app

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by M. O'Connor View Post
                                    So puzzled at your characterization of Thrushbuster as "controversial."

                                    It's "expensive." But it works. Deep clefts will always tend to collect organisms that cause thrush. I always keep that little blue bottle on hand and make a point of using it on such feet as a preventive--just a few drops per week can do that job.

                                    Sugardine is good as far as it goes, but while it destroys some organisms it can allow some others to thrive. Alternating with the T'buster has worked well for me in some cases (such as when I've used the last of the Thrushbuster).

                                    While it can be messy, and smelly, it isn't always so. And anytime you are fighting flareups of thrush, please remember that in addition to foot care, it's just as important to keep the environment you place the foot in as clean as possible--keep a clean stall, and limit access to wet, dirty ground as much as practical.

                                    It sounds like you have gotten very focused on your horse's feet as a possible cause of lameness--but with other issues higher up that have caused you to resort to joint injections, I'd be very surprised if thrush is a primary cause of his soreness. Removing it from the equation by using Thrushbuster (or another remedy, if you happen to find anything as effective, which I have yet to do) will allow you to focus on the big picture and get to the root of the problem.

                                    Do a search on thrush and you will see that there are many folks who don't like the product because it is too strong.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      flyracing in gray

                                      I wouldn't panic and call the vet and farrier for a case of thrush lameness.

                                      A vet might be useful for diagnosing and treating a suspected pathology, it's what they do.

                                      There isn't much the vet can do and dead tissue doesn't really need to be cut out as much as the black tar needs to be completely removed from the foot.

                                      Since the primary pathogen is anaerobic, establishing and maintaining aerobic conditions at the infection site is a good idea long before thrush is suspected. Better to be proactive than reactive - it's easier on the horse.

                                      This is something you can do yourself.

                                      Good husbandry is something you can do yourself.

                                      Then use Tomorrow/Dry Cow and pack with gauze. My horse was lame from thrush in both back feet two weeks ago. He was 90% improved in 24 hours and 100% in three days. I felt horrible I missed it, but we were having some flooding issues and my horse has a frog shape that anerobic bacteria thrives in.

                                      The "natural" crowd will probably gasp collectively, but a correctly trimmed frog is self-cleaning. When the frog is allowed to cover the lateral sulcii, as some do naturally, an anaerobic bacteria condo is the result - but hey, it's "natural."

                                      The key is getting the nasty black stuff out so the bacteria doesn't spread. Then treating with a topical antibacterial. Products like thrush buster are not antibacteria and work by drying/"killing" the tissue to kill of thrush as a side effect.

                                      Nonsense. Products like Thrushbuster contain formaldehyde, isopropanol and gentian violet, all of which are bactericidal to some degree. Formaldehyde is a fixative and should not be used when sensitive tissue is exposed, but solar fixatives are extremely effective prophylactics.

                                      When the horse is lame from thrush DON'T use products that will further damage the tissues.


                                      Mastitis meds will work in the short term, but lameness from thrush is really a husbandry problem, not a medication problem.

                                      And, yes bad thrush can cause swelling in the legs but will not be accompanied with heat in the leg.


                                      A severe thrush infection can create a pathway for any number of opportunistic pathogens, some of which can cause both swelling and heat in the leg - or worse.
                                      Tom Stovall, CJF
                                      No me preguntes cualquier preguntas, yo te diré no mentiras.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Hello dear let me know if you need me to stop by!
                                        "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                        ---
                                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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