• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Talk to me about EPM

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Talk to me about EPM

    Specifically, I am interested in hearing of any cases where you know of a horse who turned out to have EPM, but who didn't present any / many clear neurological type symptoms.

    I am asking my vet about this, but based on something I was told by someone knowledgeable, it is possible for a horse to have EPM but not have the most widely known symptoms -- hind end weakness, ataxia, etc.

    Thanks in advance.
    I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
    I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09


  • #2
    Lori --

    The most knowledgeable people I know of on the subject of EPM are in the yahoo group:

    EPM@yahoogroups.com

    Not sure of condition of the horse, you are discussing -- or even if you've thought of this -- by lyme disease might be something to consider. I have had both with my horses. Both are nasty, but IMHO, lyme disease is easier to treat and less of a roller ride.

    Good luck!
    elaine

    Comment


    • #3
      EPM is rampant in TN (darn opossums)
      We see a good deal of it with "minimal" signs
      My stallion had it and showed very minimal signs - his proprioception was altered and he would stand with his hind legs crossed at times. We treated him and rehabbed him and it turned out well.
      And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11

      Comment


      • #4
        My horse had a mild lameness RH, and was REALLY sore over the SI area. No other symptoms. Flexed fine, so vet speculated the lameness was coming from the SI. We injected it, and the next day he became narcoleptic, and mildly neuro--didn't fix crossed front legs in one direction. Treated for EPM, and is now fine behind. Apparently, this is a common way for EPM to show itself. Large doses of steroids knock out the immune system enough that EPM worsens. Not pretty, but glad for a diagnosis.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rio2 View Post
          EPM is rampant in TN (darn opossums)
          We see a good deal of it with "minimal" signs
          My stallion had it and showed very minimal signs - his proprioception was altered and he would stand with his hind legs crossed at times. We treated him and rehabbed him and it turned out well.
          Rio2- Your not kidding about the EPM here in TN! And I think I have a feeling we may know each other.

          But for the original poster. My mare also had very minimal signs. For one she was very unwilling under saddle to move forward especially in the trot and many felt she was just a behavoir case. Once the EPM progressed some she had a shifting hindend lameness that could not be pinpointed. Add to that the inability to even canter especially to the right.

          In the end it was her right hind that had the most damage.
          But after treatment and a slow and steady rehab process she is doing quite well and back to doing training/first level dressage.
          Actually we are approaching one year since her diagnosis!! It has made such a difference in her attitude and work ethic. Not to mention she has added alot of muscling all over and is no longer that lanky TB anymore!

          Good luck!
          Free and Forward Motion through Massage Therapy
          www.amandastarrbodywork.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Bumping this up, I'd REALLY like to hear the answer. I'm dealing with a similar issue, and vet doesn't think it's active based on current clinical presentation. Hock injections did make the neuro signs worse temporarily, but there is also a recent hoof injury and other issues as well. If there's enough evidence that a round of Marquis may help at all, I'd do it, but she's technically officially retired at the moment and is unrideable, so this would be a last resort anyway. Are there any clinical articles or case studies about this?
            Somewhere in the world, Jason Miraz is Goodling himself and wondering why "the chronicle of the horse" is a top hit. CaitlinAndTheBay

            Comment


            • #7
              Lori - I second Elaine's suggestion. The yahoo EPM Group is phenomenal if you want to learn more about EPM. Unfortunately, my horse here in SoCal developed EPM in August, 2006. Because it's so rare out here no one except my vet only a few years out of UC Davis knew a lot about it. I wen to the user group and gained a wealth of knowledge.
              "The Horse: Friendship without envy, beauty without vanity, nobility without conceit, a willing partner, yet no slave."

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                After speaking w/ my vet, we are going to do an IFAT test on Katy. (indirect fluorescent antibody testing)

                Basically, Katy has one very odd symptom, beyond her long running low grade front left lameness that we can't diagnose. She has what is called 'loose anal tone' -- her anus is open, enough so that it's difficult to take her temperature, for example. She had a neuro exam about a month ago, and she didn't have any irregularities there. She does turn her head to the outside rather distinctly when she is lunged, which looks odd to me. But I think I've officially crossed over to "grasping at straws".

                We'll keep you posted.
                I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

                Comment


                • #9
                  Candle - have your vet do an IFAT & Western Blot and have them sent to UC Davis. It's a blood test and it will help rule out whether or not your mare has EPM. It's a relatively cheap test compared to a round of Marquis. My tests were about $250 compared to $700 for one month of Marquis.
                  "The Horse: Friendship without envy, beauty without vanity, nobility without conceit, a willing partner, yet no slave."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I also went through a long period of NQR-ness before finally getting a definitive EPM diagnosis and treatment. Issues included a long period of a low grade fever we couldn't kick, subtle lamenesses in front and back legs, progressive crabbiness about work. Made me feel like I was losing every riding skill I ever learned because I could make no progress with this horse.

                    Most horses are exposed to EPM and have the protozoa circulating in their bodies. It does not become an issue until / unless it crosses into the central nervous system (spine-brain). What kind of problem finally shows up depends on where in the CNS the damage is done.

                    *star*
                    "Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit."
                    - Desiderata, (c) Max Ehrman, 1926

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Yep, ShotenStar, that sums up a lot of what I read yesterday.

                      Our case is complicated by the fact that she was out of work recovering from a suspensory injury from Jan. 2009-Feb. 2010; at that point we were ready to evaluate her to get back to work, but have found that while the suspensory seems to be healed, there is still this lingering lowgrade lameness, along with the symptoms above.

                      I'm going to start taking her temp, to see if she has a persistent temperature.

                      I was also interested to read in an article on The Horse (by a vet, w/ references) that Standardbreds, TBs, and Quarter Horses were more prone than other breeds, and that younger animals were also more likely to contract the disease.

                      Ok, here we go on another quest for The Answer.
                      I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                      I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by qhfan2 View Post
                        Candle - have your vet do an IFAT & Western Blot and have them sent to UC Davis. It's a blood test and it will help rule out whether or not your mare has EPM. It's a relatively cheap test compared to a round of Marquis. My tests were about $250 compared to $700 for one month of Marquis.
                        Will this set of tests determine whether it's an active infection or not? I'm about 99% certain that she's been exposed before. I won't have time to get on the Yahoo group until this weekend, so bear with my questions

                        The vet's theory based on history is that it's longstanding neuro damage from before I purchased her along with other hind-end issues (joint? arthritis? old fracture?) that would be next to impossible to truly diagnose, and after this much time guessing, next to impossible to truly treat unfortunately. The vet is fantastic, I'm not doubting her at all, I just need to grasp at a few more straws before I accept all of this for my sanity's sake, KWIM?
                        Somewhere in the world, Jason Miraz is Goodling himself and wondering why "the chronicle of the horse" is a top hit. CaitlinAndTheBay

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Candle - I'm going back 4 years on my knowledge of this test but what I do remember is that it will show a lower titre scale if the horse has been exposed. I had a very high % which showed the active infection and I had both the western blot and IFAT done. One test pretty much backed up the other.

                          Here are my results of the tests:
                          IFAT:
                          SarcoFlour: Serum Titer: Positive @ 1:640 it provided my vet with 95% calculation that he had EPM. This was coupled with the clinical signs as well as the positive result from the Western Blot test.

                          The "golden standard" to diagnose EPM is collecting CSF. My horse wasn't able to stand or be transported for something like this. The 2nd best was the combination of Western Blot & IFAT. These two tests came back positive; this coupled with the clinical signs is how we came to the epm diagnosis.

                          Unfortunately, I had to put him down this past August due to the long term effects this awful disease does. I don't wish my worst enemy to go through something like this and I hope none of you have to. I hope it's something else!
                          "The Horse: Friendship without envy, beauty without vanity, nobility without conceit, a willing partner, yet no slave."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I am so sorry Lori B. You know I have been through the same nightmare as you, except my mare's stifle problems were hiding her neurological problems to a certain extent. Once the stifle was healed, we realized there was something MORE.

                            Have you also had cervical xrays done? The vets at UC Davis diagnosed my mare as a mild neuro case, she just drug the RH and would stumble a little going downhill, but never had any of the "big" signs or symptoms. They simultaneously did diagnostics on her for EPM and wobblers at the same time. Unfortunately in my case she was diagnosed with wobblers and retired.
                            On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              No cervical Xrays, but she did have a nuclear scan of her whole body about a month ago, which was practically clear except for some uptake on her radius bones in front which I don't think account for her persistent mild left front lameness. (probably from running into a gate on 1-1-2010) The lameness has not really changed at all in months. MONTHS.

                              Since x-rays of her legs and the scan were clear, investigating a problem from an infection seems sensible to me.

                              She doesn't look or act like a sick horse, believe me. She is shiny and fat (see profile pic) and seems pretty happy. She's just not 100% sound and hasn't been in for-freaking-ever. (17 months)

                              Since she's now turned out with a quiet friend, and I'm not in handgrazing hell anymore, I'm not as frantic about this, but not being able to ride her is so freaking depressing. I've been picking up rides here and there, and they are fun, but you know how it is, you want to ride YOUR HORSE. Which is why you bought one in the first place, HELLO.
                              I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                              I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                QHfan- can you elaborate on the long-term symptoms that you saw? We can take this to PM if you want, I didn't mean to hijack the original thread! In this mare's case, we think that an old pelvic injury and possibly sore hocks were masking the neuro signs/symptoms. It's tragic and it's a rollercoaster, LoriB, you've got my total sympathy, and feel free to PM me or shoot off an email if you just need a shoulder.
                                Somewhere in the world, Jason Miraz is Goodling himself and wondering why "the chronicle of the horse" is a top hit. CaitlinAndTheBay

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  My ottb was diagnosed a little over 2 1/2 yrs ago. He had some lameness issues off and on for a long time. My vet felt that his xrays were not as bad as his lameness, always seemed to be right front and left hind, he had some trouble keeping his left lead and would swap behind. Often I also felt like he had no hind end, it would feel like it was just kind of floating there. Finally we tested for EPM and Lyme he was positive for both! Really high titre for the lyme also. We treated the lyme for 4 months, then treated the EPM for 2 months then the lyme again for a year. He has been sound ever since. it was really expensive to treat everything but best thing I have ever done for him!! good luck with your guy.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Lori B View Post
                                    I was also interested to read in an article on The Horse (by a vet, w/ references) that Standardbreds, TBs, and Quarter Horses were more prone than other breeds, and that younger animals were also more likely to contract the disease.
                                    I think I am going to have to track down that article! My mare is a standardbred/TB cross. And her symptoms started when she was about 5 years old. How long ago did the article run on The Horse?

                                    The IFAT is a great test and probably the best one out there. I had them run both her blood and spinal fluid as I was at the clinic full of wonderful board certified vets who were very competent at doing a spinal.
                                    Her blood levels were really not helpful, but the values from her spinal told us the answer.
                                    One a neuro exam she really did not show much of anything beyond a very mild weakness in her right hind. They were really not convinced she was at all neurologic and without the spinal they never would have made the diagnosis.
                                    Free and Forward Motion through Massage Therapy
                                    www.amandastarrbodywork.com

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      This one:

                                      http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10416
                                      I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                                      I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Update: Katy is negative for EPM via the following tests:

                                        SarcoBlot-negative
                                        Neofluor-negative
                                        Western Blot negative



                                        So, while she is still slightly but consistently lame on her left front and still has the weird 'loose anal tone' that caused us to think a test was worth doing, EPM is not a cause.

                                        And, so I'm relieved, because EPM is a serious illness that costs $$ to treat, but am still waiting and wondering if her persistent lameness really is getting better over time (really slowly).......
                                        I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                                        I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X